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Lysistrata

Πρωθυπουργός της Αυτοκρατορίας Ρωμαίος
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Feb 2, 2013
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* Having the Cyrodiilic Empire encompass High Rock, Solstheim and Skyrim by default makes little sense in the Second Era, certainly, since you end up with awkward things like King Jorunn be(com)ing an Elder Councillor.
* Has there even been an actual High King of Cyrodiil? I thought I recalled Titus Mede I being a high king in Cyrodiil before becoming Emperor, but I checked and apparently he was just a king. Honestly, I'd split the High Kingdom of Cyrodiil into Nibenay, Colovia, the Heartlands and maybe Bruma. Maybe have a decision to form the High Kingdom for someone who has both Nibenay and Colovia.

* The de-jure set-up in Skyrim is weird in so many ways. So I'll go by hold:
** Eastmarch is the most egregious offender, and stretches too far in almost every direction. Valtheim should be in Whiterun Hold (maybe with slightly adjusted borders). At least half of the Gallowrock province should be in The Pale, one way or another. Falkhammer should be in The Rift, and Shorstone should be where Ansilvund is. Might be a good idea to scrap the Eastmarch province and put Ansilvund roughly in it's place. Judging by TESV, Shorflow, Coldwinter (if you made it more coastal and not extend as far inland) and possibly Bleakrock (just because it would make greater geographical sense) should be part of Winterhold, not Eastmarch, since everything north of Traitor's Post and north-east of Windhelm is actually part of Winterhold.
** The Rift is mostly ok, although the north-west border of Ivarstead/Snowgrad with Hrothgar/Guldun should be more gently sloping than the sharp 45 degree angle it has now.
** Speaking of Hrothgar, what's the point of the barrier between it and every province but Ivarstead? It'd make sense if it was an ownable, traversable province like any other, but currently it just stops Whiterun having it's name stretch over it, which would make sense since the whole mountain is in Whiterun Hold despite the only way up being on the other side near Ivarstead.
** The Dawnstar/Frostflow border is too far west. Compare the in-game border with the Natalie Dravarol map; the border should be just to the west of Yngvild Island, and recede sharply westwards to the south. Most of the Ironbind province is actually in The Pale. I'd maybe have a Nightgate/Heljarchen province there that's part of Korvanjund, and merge Ironbind with Alftand. I'd also perhaps have Olenveld be a de-jure part of Roscrea rather than Winterhold. All that's ever been said about it in relation to Winterhold is how far away it is.
** Sunderstone juts too far into Whiterun. I'd maybe just get rid of or relocate the province of Skymarch somewhere else, then move Glenmoril and Sunderstone further south-west. Also, Brittleshin Pass is where Riverwood should be. I'd move the province further west and divide the old province between Riverwood and Helgen.
** Ravenhall juts too far east into Whiterun.
** The Duchy of Volskygge is...messy. Hraggstad is where Volskygge should be, Ustunhall is where Hraggstad should be. Hagsend should be a separate de-jure duchy; if a new province has to go where Volskygge is now, how about Darkfall/Mor Khazgur? Volkihar shouldn't be so close to Solitude, really it should be situated instead on the roundish island north of Northwatch that's currently part of Jehanna, with the current location of Volkihar island being part of Ravenscar or Coldstone.
** Highgate encroaches a bit too far into Hjaalmarch. Move the border just east of the little island north of the in-game location of Windstad Manor.

EDIT: A helpful illustration of Skyrim's new borders. Not perfect (especially the still squashed-looking Eastmarch) but better. The shaded red province is a new impassable Velothi Mountains province, mainly to smooth out the borders.


20181217165311_1.jpg
 
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Pretty sure a good chunk of these things are deliberate changes for gameplay purposes such as movement of armies, same reason the in-game duchies aren't 3 times the size to correspond to the size they are in canon in cyrodiil and Skyrim and litterlal wilderness with a single farm has a castle and multiple cities in-game.
 
The de jure exists as it is for gameplay and balance reasons. The high kingdoms were once split into kingdoms for each of the major counties/jarldoms/etc., but this kneecapped the AI's war declaration logic, and so the high kingdoms were made into de jure titles instead of ones made de jure by decision as they once were. As the Nordic Empire fell about 2500 years before the Second Empire did, the Nedic high kingdoms were included in it. This both helps the AI target its ambitions, makes the Cyrodiilic Empire's requirements easier to view, as it tends to be the most popular candidate for Nedes forming Tamriel in addition to its recent historical dominance.
 
Pretty sure a good chunk of these things are deliberate changes for gameplay purposes such as movement of armies, same reason the in-game duchies aren't 3 times the size to correspond to the size they are in canon in cyrodiil and Skyrim and litterlal wilderness with a single farm has a castle and multiple cities in-game.

I realise the need for stuffing the map with made-up provinces, I just want it to be possible to have the borders look closer to...well, I'd say "how they really are/were", but you know what I mean.

The de jure exists as it is for gameplay and balance reasons. The high kingdoms were once split into kingdoms for each of the major counties/jarldoms/etc., but this kneecapped the AI's war declaration logic, and so the high kingdoms were made into de jure titles instead of ones made de jure by decision as they once were. As the Nordic Empire fell about 2500 years before the Second Empire did, the Nedic high kingdoms were included in it. This both helps the AI target its ambitions, makes the Cyrodiilic Empire's requirements easier to view, as it tends to be the most popular candidate for Nedes forming Tamriel in addition to its recent historical dominance.

Yeah, I remember the county/hold kingdoms. My point is more that I can't see any evidence for a high kingdom of Cyrodiil ever existing, since the emperor is pretty much the high king whether or not his control extends beyond Cyrodiil itself, and having Nibenay and Colovia be counted as titular kingdoms of no greater importance than the county ones seems odd, and given their size, they'd make decent substitutes for the high kingdom which doesn't really fit anywhere into the progression from kingdom to empire (based on lore anyway). My logic for the Heartlands and Bruma is simply that they're weird outliers that don't quite fit in either of the other kingdoms.

Re: the Nordic Empire, that makes sense. Maybe have some sort of check to prevent non-Cyrodiilic independent kings (or their vassals) de facto outside the Empire from joining the Elder Council? In the political context of times like the Second Era, it makes little sense to let foreign powers participate in the Elder Council.
 
Re: the Nordic Empire, that makes sense. Maybe have some sort of check to prevent non-Cyrodiilic independent kings (or their vassals) de facto outside the Empire from joining the Elder Council? In the political context of times like the Second Era, it makes little sense to let foreign powers participate in the Elder Council.
On the SVN, the Elder Council's startup population is set such that if the Empire exists, only its vassal will join. After the initial population is created, rulers, be it the Emperor or High Chancellor, will be loathe to appoint independent rulers (apart from tributaries) to the Council.
 
I swear if they ever make a CK3, we definitely need a high-king tier in between king and emperor, would help out so many mods. I mean CK1 didn't even have barons, so clearly they're willing to add in tiers, just not midway through development. Oh how I miss the days of the various kingdoms that broke up the overly centralized dejure map of Elder Kings... :(
 
I also miss the old de-jure setup of all the petty kingdoms, and forming the high kingdoms via decision. but I do understand why its better the way it is now...the AI jus cudnt handle it