A few things about Vinland

[unmerged(60310)]

Hey,

I've been playing Abbertation for a long time and i've download interregnum...wow great works...and how happy i was when i saw that the vinland colony existed... but just a few words about it.

the vinland expedition were made historically to search woods and other tradable goods. it is clue in northen newfoundland that some forest have been cut down by 10th century.

all that wood was to be used in the groenland who was supplied and supplying island who was connected to europe. the colony couldn't survive if she was forgot by the europeans...

second, good swords was rare in island....give a sword from the contient as present was one of the biggest gift you could do. and tha'ts about island...so imagine in vinland...

i really think that vinland should know europe and that scandinavian coutries should konw about vinland as well...

i can't imagine that the kings would "forget" that there is some people on the west...especially with loads of woods...

 

[loki1232]

They forgot about it IRL, didn't they?
The vinland premise has never been really decided on, but it is thought that the expedition was assumed a failure by the Norwegians but in actually enough of the Norse surivved and interbred with the Skraelings to survive.

 

[MattyG]

Yes, it is all very tricky.

I have never been fully happy with the inclusion of Vinland because of two elements.

1. The population required to have it register and be viable is difficult to imagine if the connection with Greenland/Europe has been cut, unless you factor in absorbtion with the Skrailings. However, the small numbers of Vinlanders would surely have - over these centuries - have been genetically and culturally swamped by the skraelings. It would be unlikely that they resemble scandinavian culture much or still even be Christian. And either way, I cannot see them forming a political entity that matches the game structures of states in EU2 and should be dispensed with along with the other native north american peoples.

2. We sinply cannot have them still knowing Europe, because then if the norweigians know about the area WTF have they not colonized more? And who owns what? It all raises more questions than we have answers for. The connection simply cannot be there unless we want to seriously revisit the entire colonization process. Which we don't.


Therefore, only two possibilities exist.

A. Get rid of Vinland.

B. Continue with our current assumption that the Greenlanders left to go to the warmer climes of the east coast, leaving Greenland as colonizable and bolstering the numbers and skills of the Vinlanders.

 

[unmerged(60310)]

1. The population required to have it register and be viable is difficult to imagine if the connection with Greenland/Europe has been cut, unless you factor in absorbtion with the Skrailings. (...).

The survival of Vinland was the link to europe. In island in the middle ages, the greatest gift you could was a continental sword, as iron was very rare on island (even more in greenland...so imagine in vinland....)

All the furs that was in north amercia would be GREATLY accepted in europe...so that's why vinland would trade and exist.

Dont forget that the word "Viking" means "trader" (something like "(who is) goinig to trade"). that means thoes guys woulnd forget sea lanes, and how to get back to their homes.

(...)It would be unlikely that they resemble scandinavian culture much or still even be Christian.

Vinland was discovered around 1000AD at that time around 20% of all scandinavia was still pagan. so if we imagine that a colony was set up, they would have been pagan and not christian.

The viking society never tried to "colonize" an area like the brits or the french did. they were traders more intreseted to go home and sell what they bought.

2. We sinply cannot have them still knowing Europe, because then if the norweigians know about the area WTF have they not colonized more? And who owns what? It all raises more questions than we have answers for. The connection simply cannot be there unless we want to seriously revisit the entire colonization process. Which we don't.

We know that in 1000AD the climate in greenland was really lovely but became freazy over the next centuries, explanation why these folks would go to vinland. so it's ok for the population.

they didn't colonize this area for 2 main reason,

1) Even for the vikings france was bloody far away of norway, so imagine vinland...a trip to island was an expedition. and as i said before, they never tried to implant a part of their country. in island in 1000AD, they were around 400 famillies.

2)they were not enough people to colonize... on the real expediton to vinland, accordind to saga and archéological research, the population was up to 100 men and 20 women... imagine what they were fighting for ?( )

In my opinon, this vinland area would more be something like a few trading post at high levels with 1 or 2 level 1 colony ownd by norway and knowed by danemark and sweden. some tricks would make norway not able to furter colonize it until the 16th century.

 

[MattyG]

Well, this is very much supporting my own feelings on the matter, which is that a Vinland is hard to imagine as an independent colony that survived.

Of course, this is an alternative history, so we can conceive of a variety of different outcomes. Let us suggest the following:

1. The Vinland traders met with success, and remained there all year round because the fishing was excellent (the best and easiest fishing in the world on the Grand Banks) and furs could be gained in the winter as well.

2. More colonist/traders came from Norway than only the initial 120, including more women, although skraeling women would undoubtedly have been added to the mix.

3. Some event occurs in Norway that severs the connection. Let us postulate that two successive expeditions/flotillas leave Norway and never make it to Greenland, encountering frozen seas. They turn back with reports that it is no longer passable, and that the colonies beyond Greenland have been isolated. It comes to be though of as god's will. The Vinlanders themselves enounter the same problem. They discover iron deposits on Newfoundland and become more self sufficient.

4. When no-one comes from Norway and no-one comes from Vinland, hope is abandoned and life goes on, the centuries roll by and the colony in Vinalnd continues to grow.


See, the thing is that we cannot have anyone knowing about Vinland in 1419. If the Norweigians know of Vinalnd and for some incomprehensible reason the word about it has not gone further than Norway, then as soon as the capital is taken by Kalmar or Scotland, they will know about the new world and game balance and historical processes fall apart on us.

Either we complete a convincing story of continued colonization of Vinland in the tenth and 11th centuries that somehow becomes severed, or else we remove Vinland from Interregnum.

Matty

 

[unmerged(60310)]

Let us suggest the following:

1. The Vinland traders met with success, and remained there all year round because the fishing was excellent (the best and easiest fishing in the world on the Grand Banks) and furs could be gained in the winter as well.

ok

2. More colonist/traders came from Norway than only the initial 120, including more women, although skraeling women would undoubtedly have been added to the mix.

ok, may say that we could lower the colonoy level of island to show that vinland was more intresting than this stony icy island

3. Some event occurs in Norway that severs the connection. Let us postulate that two successive expeditions/flotillas leave Norway and never make it to Greenland, encountering frozen seas. They turn back with reports that it is no longer passable, and that the colonies beyond Greenland have been isolated. It comes to be though of as god's will. The Vinlanders themselves enounter the same problem. They discover iron deposits on Newfoundland and become more self sufficient.

4. When no-one comes from Norway and no-one comes from Vinland, hope is abandoned and life goes on, the centuries roll by and the colony in Vinalnd continues to grow.

don't really agree...

let's put it that way, during the reign of olaf I of norway, this king tried to import christianism into his kingdom. historically, there were lots of resitance and small wars for that. So Leif Ericsson, son of erick the red, discoverd Vinland around that time.

As viking traders like to move and adventures, people stated to move across the ocean, without settling in iceland (except for some). A century later after a couple of civil wars, the king Hakon IV in 1244 tried to impose christianism into vinland, aswell as tax, Jarls and others stuff.

Things got wrong and vinlanders hang/killed/burnt the king's men. so a "war" started. but it was really difficult to cross the atlantic. so nothing happend except some raids

2 century later norway didn't forgot about her claims on vinland, but acepted it's soverignty.

So, in 1419 Norway know the exsitance of vinland, a couple of sea zone west of iceland but nothing else.

when someone find the exsitance of vinland, norway could say "hey, they 're mine" and keep their claims and make some early colonial wars...

 

[MattyG]

Here's the problem.

When you capture someone's capital, you get there maps. I cannot change this. And there are no event commands to delete provinces you know. So, as soon as Kalmar or Scotland ( or anyone who wants maps of the new world! ) sacks the Oslo, they have the maps, can trade them, any the maps can be gained when their capital gets sacked, and so on.

So, I reiterate, no-one can know about Vinland in 1419. This is not negotiable.

Moreover, it simply is impossible to believe that Norway could have kept the existence of the new world 'secret' for over 400 years.

 

[Languish]

If you can stomach the long read (76 pages!!!) you might want to check out the Vinland Fantasy Scenario thread for alot of ideas and work that was put into this concept. The scenario was never fully finished - but alot of idea's were put down. If you wish to use any or all of it - feel free - i have no qualms about it being used in any way whatsoever.

Also, correct me if i am wrong... but isn't this mod somewhat alternative history based anyway, so do you actually need to be that precise about the possibility of a norse settlement in north america and the extent and knowledge of it? If i am wrong please accept my apologies - but consider looking at the thread anyway for some occassional gems of information.

 

[Dairpo]

Also, correct me if i am wrong... but isn't this mod somewhat alternative history based anyway, so do you actually need to be that precise about the possibility of a norse settlement in north america and the extent and knowledge of it? If i am wrong please accept my apologies - but consider looking at the thread anyway for some occassional gems of information.

The mode is based on what could have happened if certain things occurred different, didn't occur, or things occurred that in RW did. So while yes it is alternate history it still holds onto the "history" part of the title.

 

[Languish]

The mode is based on what could have happened if certain things occurred different, didn't occur, or things occurred that in RW did. So while yes it is alternate history it still holds onto the "history" part of the title.

Thanks for clearing that up i figured as much. Nice to see Vinland in another mod either way

 

[MattyG]

So, I have a read some of the Vinland thread and what seems clear to me is that it would be better to have the Vinlanders move further south, down towards Connecticutt. Given the superior conditions for survival there, it would be natural that the Vinlanders would have made their way there over the years, abandoning Newfoundland, which has almost no trees, although the fishing is excellent.

This would disrupt a few events, but it would make contact with the Haudenosaunee more likely. It would also make settlement for Eire easier, as Newfoundland would be open.

But I still don't want to see Vinland as greater than one core province and some TPs, not unless we accept that they bred heavily with the skraelings. Which I still think ought to be an at-start option for them.

 

[unmerged(60310)]

Newfoundland has no tree?!?

i've always thougt there were plenty of them..


i come back with the idea that the scandinavian coutries should know about the new world. the Saga of eric the red, wich tells of the colonization of greenland, the vinland attempt and other things, was written in the 11th century. 2 centuries later it was still know. known and understood.

that's an exemple that those countries can not forget something as big as the discover of a vinland.

now, i understand that in gameplay, norway can not know all or even a part of vinland, but we could add some cores on the colonies of vinland. (even if they don't know where it is). or just let them know the capital of vinland.

yeah... i know... i'm a pain in the neck...

by the way, just to know, in wich tech group is vinland? i just hope they are not in a "primitive" group...

 

[Garbon]

I would agree that Scandinavia should have no knowledge of Vinland. Since knowing that a nation exists in EU2, immediately let's you have diplomatic interactions with it (something which IRL could only happen with a long expedition/delegation), it would be hard to prevent odd interactions between Norway and Vinland. Why conceivably one could make an alliance near game start that would bring Vinland way too soon into the international/European realm.

 

[unmerged(60310)]

ok...ok...i surender....

and what about some norvegian/danish cores on vinland. even without knowing it?

and a crisis with the nation who "discover" vinland would be funny, woulnd't it?

 

[MattyG]

Just so you know, Newfoundland has a LOT of trees, but what I meant was it has no trees useful for shipbuilding. It's covered in relatively low-growing, spindly stuff, not the tall, straight white pines and red pines for which mainland Canada became famous for in the age of sail. So, they could build with it (just) and have plenty of firewood. But shipbuilding, I think not.

As for cores, that's the sort of thing best left to events. As soon as they no about the Vinlanders, the Norweigians/Kalmar/Denmark could make claims on their provinces, even without the Vinlanders permission.

Start writing, lep!

 

[Garbon]

Just so you know, Newfoundland has a LOT of trees, but what I meant was it has no trees useful for shipbuilding. It's covered in relatively low-growing, spindly stuff, not the tall, straight white pines and red pines for which mainland Canada became famous for in the age of sail. So, they could build with it (just) and have plenty of firewood. But shipbuilding, I think not.

Wouldn't that be the perfect place to keep them then? I don't think having them build ships is a particulary good idea as then they likely would have tried to return to Scandinavia(?)