A fundamental problem with Paradox ''commanders''

[BaronNoir]

Be them called general or marshal, it goes without saying that a lot of the problems the player have in Paradox games require the talents of those individuals to succeed.

It's just that....except if you want to roleplay, why on Earth would you have General Hunzinger, General Wainwright or Marshal Voronov command troops ? (they have very lousy stats and there are obviously better generals than them)

What I mean there is simply that having commanders with various stats is a good idea-but making the stats visible from the get go goes is kinda bizarre, since there never was an obvious way for head of states to determine the competence of generals before a war (especially important for HOI games, since godawful WW2 generals had more often than not a stellar conduct as junior officers in WW1-a French politician had no way to know that general Gamelin was incompetent and general Georges incompetent(er)

 

[Klausewitz]

It is a bad solution but i think the best available.
Lets think about what else could be done:
1. Hide skill level
=> A quick wikipedia search and you have a reasonable frame to select your commanders; also lots of bitching here on the forums because generals do not perform as expected
2. Randomize Skill level
=> Massive bitching
3. Randomize and hide
=>Shitshow. Also lots of complaints.

 

[BaronIronmaggot]

I don't think that completely hiding the stats of commanders would do any sort of good.

Perhaps instead of showing stats, the game shows the track record of the generals and commanders and such.

 

[MrTrt]

I don't think that completely hiding the stats of commanders would do any sort of good.

Perhaps instead of showing stats, the game shows the track record of the generals and commanders and such.

Point 1. still applies.

 

[klopkr]

I've always been a big supporter for 'obscured stats'. The ++++ system is already used in a lot of paradox games for minor systems. It'd be nice to add an 'obscured stats' option to honestly every games character specific stats as an option.

EU4: How many pips does that commander have? One + might stand for anything between 1-3 pips.
CK2: What's your characters martial? 1-5 per stat could be a +.
etc...

Information is good. But sometimes i just want less information.

 

[Groogy]

As a power gamer, that would make me go insane.
If you aren't playing EU4 with a spreadsheet accompanying you then you are playing wrong

 

[Atlantians]

As a power gamer, that would make me go insane.
If you aren't playing EU4 with a spreadsheet accompanying you then you are playing wrong

Mind posting an example of your spreadsheets?

 

[Aries666]

As a power gamer, that would make me go insane.
If you aren't playing EU4 with a spreadsheet accompanying you then you are playing wrong

Pah, spreadsheets are for the weak, real power gamers use only their minds

 

[TheRedRedcoat]

As a power gamer, that would make me go insane.
If you aren't playing EU4 with a spreadsheet accompanying you then you are playing wrong

I disagree strongly with this, and it's one of my biggest problems with Paradox games. At a certain point, all pretense of historical accuracy or simulation disappears and it becomes a game of stacking modifiers and math. Maybe that appeals to some, but these games are meant to simulate a historical time period, and huge meta and gameyness destroys that illusion.

 

[Groogy]

Mind posting an example of your spreadsheets?

Here's my coptomans spreadsheet.

Currently working on the one for my next campaign.

I disagree strongly with this, and it's one of my biggest problems with Paradox games. At a certain point, all pretense of historical accuracy or simulation disappears and it becomes a game of stacking modifiers and math. Maybe that appeals to some, but these games are meant to simulate a historical time period, and huge meta and gameyness destroys that illusion.

Well all of the games, ever since EU3(when I got on the wagon) has always in essence of its core been "Use your modifiers against other people's modifiers to gain more modifiers"
At least that's how I look at it. I still role play and subconsciously create stories for events in the game that fits the environment around it. Like my favorite campaign in EU3 where I had the Great Swedish Empire spanning the northern hemisphere defending the oppressed Lutheran German states against the vile alliance of the Catholic French and Moslem Turks. Modifiers is the mechanic that make things work in the game at all and doing anything interesting, modifiers themselves don't remove plausible historicity in itself. Unless you think only way to properly represent historicity is by individually simulating every farmer of a county, these things will be abstracted into modifiers.

 

[Kliwarrior]

Pah, spreadsheets are for the weak, real power gamers use only their minds

Real power gamers use the Spirit of the Nation (or Duchy, or Star Empire) they are currently playing, for instantly and instinctively pick the right choices .

Exactly like Real Programmers use Butterflies

 

[Johan]

As a power gamer, that would make me go insane.
If you aren't playing EU4 with a spreadsheet accompanying you then you are playing wrong

I dont..

 

[VoodooEconomist]

Well, this is awkward...

 

[Heradite]

As a power gamer, that would make me go insane.
If you aren't playing EU4 with a spreadsheet accompanying you then you are playing wrong

But the game comes with multiple spreadsheets that contain all you really need to know. It's called the ledger.

 

[ringhloth]

Create an army, general gets randomly assigned to it. You want to change the general? Pay monarch points, or PP, or opinion penalties. Now you have to deal with the generals you have. I don't like the idea, and don't think it fits in PDS games, but w/e.

 

[BarskiPatzow]

Here's my coptomans spreadsheet.

Currently working on the one for my next campaign.


Well all of the games, ever since EU3(when I got on the wagon) has always in essence of its core been "Use your modifiers against other people's modifiers to gain more modifiers"
At least that's how I look at it. I still role play and subconsciously create stories for events in the game that fits the environment around it. Like my favorite campaign in EU3 where I had the Great Swedish Empire spanning the northern hemisphere defending the oppressed Lutheran German states against the vile alliance of the Catholic French and Moslem Turks. Modifiers is the mechanic that make things work in the game at all and doing anything interesting, modifiers themselves don't remove plausible historicity in itself. Unless you think only way to properly represent historicity is by individually simulating every farmer of a county, these things will be abstracted into modifiers.

Those spreadsheets just made me realize just how much Ottos are OP. Any other spreadsheets?

 

[Groogy]

My spreadsheet for Daimyo's but it is still incomplete (haven't done the national values yet and morale will be higher)

 

[General WVPM]

Maybe look at something other than just the stats?
IRL people don't get into positions because they are so great for fulfilling that function, but rather because they got friends at the right places or because the really good people might be too dangerous (they could overthrow you). Instead of confusing the player with obscure stats, why not limit their ability to switch commanders?

Especially in peacetime, military personnel would get promoted for reasons other than their skill.

 

[Axe99]

@BaronNoir - you could probably mod HoI4 to make general traits invisible, and then whack in some events to make them randomised. It'd be a fair bit of work for a relatively small feature, and I'm not 100% on this, but I think it'd probably be achievable.

Well all of the games, ever since EU3(when I got on the wagon) has always in essence of its core been "Use your modifiers against other people's modifiers to gain more modifiers"
At least that's how I look at it. I still role play and subconsciously create stories for events in the game that fits the environment around it. Like my favorite campaign in EU3 where I had the Great Swedish Empire spanning the northern hemisphere defending the oppressed Lutheran German states against the vile alliance of the Catholic French and Moslem Turks. Modifiers is the mechanic that make things work in the game at all and doing anything interesting, modifiers themselves don't remove plausible historicity in itself. Unless you think only way to properly represent historicity is by individually simulating every farmer of a county, these things will be abstracted into modifiers.

All true, but you don't need exact knowledge of the impacts of all the modifiers to make that kind of gameplay work. I think PDS' audience might find imperfect information a tad challenging after being given lots and lots of info up to now, but I reckon it could make for more interesting gameplay if we don't know exactly how strong our armies are (or similar, with information getting more precise after we actually use them).

 

[MrTrt]

All true, but you don't need exact knowledge of the impacts of all the modifiers to make that kind of gameplay work. I think PDS' audience might find imperfect information a tad challenging after being given lots and lots of info up to now, but I reckon it could make for more interesting gameplay if we don't know exactly how strong our armies are (or similar, with information getting more precise after we actually use them).

The problem, in my opinion, is that at the end of the day it still comes down to modifiers. With games as moddable as these, the user will be able to know exactly what those modifiers are, by looking at some file.

Take Victoria II for example. In Victoria II generals have a background and a personality trait. You can see them and then you can see a list of exactly what it modifes. For example:

Background: Aristocrat
Personality: Chivalrous
+30% Morale
+2 Attack

If you remove the exact modifiers, you are left with two vage indications that tell you nothing. Even if the explanations are more detailed, let's be realistic, you'd just go to the game files or even esier, to the wiki, that you can access in-game, so you can exactly tell which of your generals has a higher attack stat so you can put him in charge of your mighty army.