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A guide I wrote about the 4th Armoured

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>5 star solution 12.SS
And what are you gonna do again if 4.AD literally pushes you with both hellcats at once from the first minute? Is your Beute Firefly double-barreled or shoots 60 times a second?

>1 star 91.LL
The only deck with Hs.129B3 75mm gun against no fighters and no AA in A is 1-star. Ok.

Give me back the time I spent reading this
 
Leenday said:
>5 star solution 12.SS
And what are you gonna do again if 4.AD literally pushes you with both hellcats at once from the first minute? Is your Beute Firefly double-barreled or shoots 60 times a second?

if they are aggressively pushing dual hellcat I am going to use smoke or artillery either to suppress them or make it so only one at a time has an angle at me. If they stay too close together the firefly will suppress both at the same time.

>1 star 91.LL
The only deck with Hs.129B3 75mm gun against no fighters and no AA in A is 1-star. Ok.

Give me back the time I spent reading this
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I don't honestly feel this is constructive, because the 4th has AA and any good one is going to bring it but hey slag me without even looking at the battlegroup over view is cool I guess.
 
If you make a statement like "12th should always beat 4th", you kinda need to back that up because lol, just because they have a solution to hellcats doesn't mean they totally own the list. 4th has a ton of tools to put pressure on wide areas of the map without spending a ton of money whereas 12th kinda has to dump a bunch of opening points into a firefly or pray for the best from vet pak 38s. If you end up in a closed in map, well, 4th has vet cav greyhounds, abrams, and plenty of rifles to throw around.
 
Karlburg said:
If you make a statement like "12th should always beat 4th", you kinda need to back that up because lol, just because they have a solution to hellcats doesn't mean they totally own the list. 4th has a ton of tools to put pressure on wide areas of the map without spending a ton of money whereas 12th kinda has to dump a bunch of opening points into a firefly or pray for the best from vet pak 38s. If you end up in a closed in map, well, 4th has vet cav greyhounds, abrams, and plenty of rifles to throw around.
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See that is constructive, and I agree with all your points in terms of the shorter the shooting range the better the 4ths odds are. So tell me what you think the best deck to fight the 4th Armoured is. Spend a couple hours writing out a decent reply. I wrote a guide which is my opinion. I don't draw a salary from Eugen or Paradox, and play this game for fun. However, you want change to happen in a game, like real balance changes you need to think at a level that encompasses every division on every division.
 
IMO the best deck to face the 4th arm (and best german deck in general atm) is the 9th PZ. With the Marders you have a cost equivalent counter to hellcats and with veterancy they have a slightly higher kill chance than the cat, offset by the fact that the cat will almost always get first shot in. You have a decent AA piece in the tracked Flakvierling and can back it up with a FW190 together these can actually kill a B-26, alone the B-26 will force off any german fighter 1 on 1 so the AA is a necessity. On closer range maps the PZII Luchs vs M8 Cav is slightly in favour of the PZII at sub 500 metres, although Abrams can rule those situations. It can also be useful on some maps to buy the ME109 rockets plane early if Abrams is isolated to stun and force a surrender with a PZII.

It's still 4th arm favoured and the 9th PZ isn't as powerful in B and C as other German divisions so the matchup stays quite close throughout, but since every other German Div gets overrun in A you don't really have a choice.

The 12th SS feels like it should have a chance against 4th arm, sadly a decent player will just push across the map with cheap inf, one flank with abrams, another with a Hellcat backed up by a marauder and there's no way the firefly can stop both pushes. By the time you've been able to get a jagdpanzer IV or Tiger on the field to help support the firefly the 4th arm has already racked up a ton of points and crushed a lot of your force. After that, going on the offensive against superior numbers, superior income and excellent flanking potential is a nightmare. Of course if you slightly mess up your firefly micro and lose it to doubled cats you might as well just concede.

The only area of you text I really take issue with is unrelated to the main points, describing the 116th's income as functional. The more people who realise that the 116th is absolutely gimped in the income department for no real reason the more chance there is of fixing that. 116th gets 4,300 points over the course of a normal game, the lowest in the game 4th arm receives 4,700 The joint highest in the game.

I do appreciate you trying to make the effort to talk about the 4th arm though.
 
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Acheron143 said:
I don't honestly feel this is constructive, because the 4th has AA and any good one is going to bring it but hey slag me without even looking at the battlegroup over view is cool I guess.
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well honestly ur guid in a nutshell is.. 'don't honestly feel this is constructive' frames it well.. And i wouldnt like to just plane out say trash to it.
but it becoms very hard to take all of this "4ad not Op" nonsens serius latly when half the post defending 4ad consist of this sort of gems..

"352 Infanterie
This match up is okay, there are better and worse choices." the weakest german division aganst 4AD.. U know u cant even pen the sherman with this divison in A?
Oh wait.. i see the problem.. "You have two units in Phase A a PAK 40 and a Flak 41 88 that really threaten the 4th armoured" u dont rly play competetiv do u? I mean u rly think ATGs do anything aganst 4ad in A..

"The Stug IV in B and C are hard counters, but against everything but the 4th they lack enough AP so you need to carry the Panzer IV H" U know the 2 tanks have the same AP? So dont know what kind of brianfart this is that u need to carry a Pz4 over A Stug4 cause of Penetration...

To be fair i like to see people taking a aproche aganst 4ad and look for solutions. But stuff like this is not rly a guid but more of a uninformed C-Tier player NonsensVomit
 
Hellcats are not the only problem in 4th armored.



They have 1200m range 105 sherman that can kill 88s or at guns easily with some micro.

They have the marauder(s) that can stun even a firefly for a long time, can fend off fighters or even kill them with luck.

They have dirt cheap and durable, efficient 12 men rifle squads. Just to hold the line if nothing else.

They have the Abrams, veteran (two star iirc? I don't really play 4th ad anymore because feels dirty) Sherman.

And of course, the Hellcats.


Some of those has to go.

And you are wrong about Hellcats. They can easily destroy 12th SS Firefly with some support. Like the Marauders, which you have in phase a. Once the Firefly panics, it is dead. Hell, they don't have to destroy the Firefly, they can go somewhere else very fast, Firefly can only be at one place.

On top of everything, 4th armored has 130 income in both b and c. Same overall income with Lehr in all phases.
 
I fully agree that the 4th needs changed. The question is what is the goal and what do you want it to be. My goal writing this was to showcase just how dominate the 4th was. When a division can warp the battlefield this much based on its iconic unit it needs reviewed and patched ideally.
 
Lews Therin said:
Hellcats are not the only problem in 4th armored.



They have 1200m range 105 sherman that can kill 88s or at guns easily with some micro.

They have the marauder(s) that can stun even a firefly for a long time, can fend off fighters or even kill them with luck.

They have dirt cheap and durable, efficient 12 men rifle squads. Just to hold the line if nothing else.

They have the Abrams, veteran (two star iirc? I don't really play 4th ad anymore because feels dirty) Sherman.

And of course, the Hellcats.


Some of those has to go.

And you are wrong about Hellcats. They can easily destroy 12th SS Firefly with some support. Like the Marauders, which you have in phase a. Once the Firefly panics, it is dead. Hell, they don't have to destroy the Firefly, they can go somewhere else very fast, Firefly can only be at one place.

On top of everything, 4th armored has 130 income in both b and c. Same overall income with Lehr in all phases.
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Somehow you want to delete everything in the deck. But the real prob of 4AD is to reduce its strength in A phase.
GA too has support cromwells in A., it's not a big deal. 1200m 105 are fine.
Abrams is fine, it's one card for one unit.
Maraudeurs can be nerfed from 130 to 150 points and have their ammo reduced.
12 men rifles squads are fine if 4AD is down on other levels. Rifles/engineers are 20 points but come in trucks and have no bazooka.
The real prob is in the Hellcats, nerf all the cards of these from 110 to 130-150 and it's another story.

And to bring balance give some joy to some german decks in A and work on the crit system to make at guns a bit more useful.

No point turning 4AD into a no play deck cause you would have nerfed it too much.
 
Gilmund said:
Somehow you want to delete everything in the deck. But the real prob of 4AD is to reduce its strength in A phase.
GA too has support cromwells in A., it's not a big deal. 1200m 105 are fine.
Abrams is fine, it's one card for one unit.
Maraudeurs can be nerfed from 130 to 150 points and have their ammo reduced.
12 men rifles squads are fine if 4AD is down on other levels. Rifles/engineers are 20 points but come in trucks and have no bazooka.
The real prob is in the Hellcats, nerf all the cards of these from 110 to 130-150 and it's another story.

And to bring balance give some joy to some german decks in A and work on the crit system to make at guns a bit more useful.

No point turning 4AD into a no play deck cause you would have nerfed it too much.
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I don't want to delete everything. I said "some of those has to go". If it was up to me, I would nerf phase B income to 120, delete one card of M4105s and Hellcats from phase A and add them to other phases, and decrease Marauder "the Death Star" ammo a lot.

And who cares if rifles have no bazooka? Maybe i would delete all rifles and make them all armored rifles, their damage output is lower and they are expensive.
 
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Lews Therin said:
I don't want to delete everything. I said "some of those has to go". If it was up to me, I would nerf phase B income to 120, delete one card of M4105s and Hellcats from phase A and add them to other phases, and decrease Marauder "the Death Star" ammo a lot.

And who cares if rifles have no bazooka? Maybe i would delete all rifles and make them all armored rifles, their damage output is lower and they are expensive.
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Then why don't you start with your proposal instead of saying everything in 4AD is an issue. It's not about the fact that 4AD have effective peak units, it's about the fact 4AD mays stack them way more quickly than every other deck considering the price of units.
I could agree with some of your changes but i don't get why you want to turn 4AD from a phase A deck to a phase B deck. Imo the fact that there isn't a lot of regular 76mm availability in the deck late game is reason enough to explain it's not a phase C deck like 3rd Armored.

Let's speak, 4D strength is in buildng his assets very early but the deck should suffer once the big cats arrive due to the limited amount of strong units you may bring on the field. It is not the case in the current state cause hellcats are overpowered and too cheap and therefore you may build earlier than your opponent. But it should be in the way the deck has been build (strong phase A then power decreasing in time, like GA). And imo if you want to turn 4AD into a B/C deck, you have to give it more availability of 76mm late game.
A real nerf on hellcats cost will slower their strength but let them have the possibility to actually do something in A. The whole point is to reduce their build in time and the use of their peak units but keep the phase A flavour. A nerf to the overall points flow in B would instead reduce the possibility to bring any unit on the field in a whole which isn't the way i would go. If you let hellcats to 110 points and nerf phase B points flow to 120 points you just reduce a bit of points coming each tick but it doesn't change a lot of the strength of these peak units and the way the game has build 4AD in A (even with maraudeurs with ammo nerfed and 1/2 phase A hellcats), you still may have one hellcat per tick with it in B and build with your proposal.

What i meant is 20 points rifles/engineers are not overpowered, they are cheap but they arn't peak units neither. 4AD should be nerfed on peak units and not on his ability to have cheap inf imo. Reduce the availabity of 20 points infantry per card could make more sense but it's definitely not the inf which is strong in the deck.

There is another possibility to nerf hellcats, it is to reduce their speed/turret/resistance whatever, a nerf of the unit itself but i like the price nerf way more, no point to have made an interesting unit like the hellcat and turn it into a M10TD.
 
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Then why don't you start with your proposal instead of saying everything in 4AD is an issue. It's not about the fact that 4AD have effective peak units, it's about the fact 4AD mays stack them way more quickly than every other deckconsidering the price of units.
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Everything being together in a deck and being quite affordable and cost effective even in phase A is an issue. That is right.


I could agree with some of your changes but i don't get why you want to turn 4AD from a phase A deck to a phase B deck. Imo the fact that there isn't a lot of regular 76mm availability in the deck late game is reason enough to explain it's not a phase C deck like 3rd Armored.
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4th armored is not a phase A deck.

4th armored is good all around, that is another issue. They don't fall off like the French, which is a phase A deck who has crappy M10s for C.

Lack of 76 mms in 4th armored? What? Hordes of Hellcats would disagree. They are better than your regular 76mms, they have incredible ambush potential with their speed and aim time. And this deck can spam those Hellcats because why not? It is available and it is cheap. That is why this deck doesn't fall off. Tons of fast 76mms right from phase A to C.

Increase the price dramatically

Decrease the availability dramatically (especially in other phases if you want this deck to be a phase A deck, I would nerf this deck's phase A hard and maybe buff other phases because allies has many decks that are excellent in A.)

Pick one of two.

And why the highest overall income? Lehr has 4700 overall income too but unlike the 4th, they can't spam their units right from phase a to c. They pay 100 points for two star mobile pak 38, aka Puma and they wait two ticks for this. Even in phase B. I am not saying that they should buff Lehr, they are good as they are.
 
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I found 4 AD truly shines in Phase B. You spend a lot in securing your frontline in A and you can't realy be to reckless with your key units like Abrams (which I often am :rolleyes:). But once B hits you can realy put up the heat with 130 income and discounted units like 65 point Stuarts. I never got the hype about Hellcats because the real deal for me are the vetted Stuarts in this division. In the right circumstances you can pretty much overwhelm any tank with them.
Also since the general Sherman buff Rhinos are awesome as well.
 
Lews Therin said:
Everything being together in a deck and being quite affordable and cost effective even in phase A is an issue. That is right.
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The cost is the issue not the units. It's why there is such thing as 22ap koenigstiger for 380 point in B within Lehr and there is no prob with it.

Lews Therin said:
4th armored is not a phase A deck.

4th armored is good all around, that is another issue. They don't fall off like the French, which is a phase A deck who has crappy M10s for C.

Lack of 76 mms in 4th armored? What? Hordes of Hellcats would disagree. They are better than your regular 76mms, they have incredible ambush potential with their speed and aim time. And this deck can spam those Hellcats because why not? It is available and it is cheap. That is why this deck doesn't fall off. Tons of fast 76mms right from phase A to C.
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4th Armored is a phase A deck reenforcing in B and that's is possible only cause of its strong phase A but there arn't really better units in C. Actually there is even downgrade with rhinos which get only a 75mm gun for 1000m and 11ap, for 30points more than hellcats. Except 4000m arty, there is no real strong C new units in 4AD it's just a fact.
And in regard of other decks they have less cards of 76mm overall.

The funny part is 2DB is quite the opposite of what you describing. They lack points to use them but they have access to way more vetted 75/76mm in B and C.
Actually there are two M10 in A, eight in B and six in C into 2DB (reminds me of something, perhaps 4AD with two hellcats in A, six in B and five in C...) But 2DB has access to a shitload of 76mm/75mm in B and C. With may much availability than 4AD actually. The trouble is they got less points in B and C and have costlier units in these phases than 4AD.

Then it's hard to say 4AD is good overall and 2DB is falling off in B and C. 4AD is mostly good cause their units are tremendously cheap for deck points flow in all the phases but in regard to other decks, 4AD lacks availability of 76mm. It shines mostly because of the cost of its units in regard of its points flow.
Simple comparaison, 2DB 75mm cost = 140 points, for 76mm = 180 points and for M10 76mm = 125 points with only 100/110/115/115 = 440 overall points flow when 4AD does have 80/130/130/130 = 470, 180 points for a few regular 76mm but only 110 points for hellcats.
It's not 4AD has access to many units or they are too strong, they are strong but it is mostly they are way too cheap in regards to their strength.
Hellcat being better than M10s and 4D having that much points flow i nthe whole game hellcats should really be above 125 points M10's, fixing price between 130-150 is no big deal.

Lews Therin said:
Increase the price dramatically

Decrease the availability dramatically (especially in other phases if you want this deck to be a phase A deck, I would nerf this deck's phase A hard and maybe buff other phases because allies has many decks that are excellent in A.)
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As i just said it's not about availability, 4AD has low availability, it's about price of units in regard to points flow.


Lews Therin said:
Pick one of two.

And why the highest overall income? Lehr has 4700 overall income too but unlike the 4th, they can't spam their units right from phase a to c. They pay 100 points for two star mobile pak 38, aka Puma and they wait two ticks for this. Even in phase B. I am not saying that they should buff Lehr, they are good as they are.
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We come back to my KT example. Lehr got very good units but very costly ones for its points flow. Why 4AD should not be the allied Lehr with the actual very good points flow of 4700 but very costly units with very low availibity...
Imo reducing points flow of 4AD in B is just looking in the wrong direction about what is going on wrong with this deck. It will change nothing.
And delete a few units in A well it's just crippling a beast. Still dangerous.
 
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12SS the best division to counter 4AD? You have got to be kidding me. 12SS doesn't stand a chance against 4AD in a 1v1, unless it's a game between low level players. Sure, the Firefly can handle the Hellcats, but 4AD can use its B-26 Marauder(s) to stun the Firefly and proceed to kill it with its Hellcats. After that, 4AD can enjoy total armor superiority until phase B. To protect the $200 Firefly as 12SS you need 1-2 $90 Wirbelwinds. So you have to spend up to $380 just to keep your Firefly in the game, which means its more or less impossible for the 12SS player to not lose alot of ground. The only good strategy as 12SS if you are up against 4AD is to pray to God you get St Mere Eglise, because it's a narrow map and you are not as dependant on the Firefly on it.

Windhund and 9Pz have the tools to handle 4AD, but they have limited infantry and Windhund has the lowest income in the game, making them very unforgiving to play, so personally I would prefer to use 16LW. I would use the FlaK 88s to keep the B-26s at bay, with mortars and Gren. Führers ready to cover them with smoke if the M4(105)s start firing at them. 16LW has alot of cheap infantry, so you have a chance to hold the front. Then when B comes I'd get more 88s if needed and then try to take out 4AD's vehicles with HS 129s and bombers.
 
We come back to my KT example. Lehr got very good units but very costly ones for its points flow. Why 4AD should not be the allied Lehr with the actual very good points flow of 4700 but very costly units with very low availibity...
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3rd Armored has that job. 4th armored can be something else.



I kinda agree on other parts. Tho i want 4th AD income to be nerfed. And 4th AD has perhaps the best availability in the game, they can bring all they have while many other decks can't. Abundance of French M10 cards doesnt really mean much.
 
4Ad has to get some of its strenghs cut away..
Som things like the B26 in A is simpyl stupid. U could price buff it to 200 and higher and it would still be a musst pick aganst half the divisions sins its still uncounterable.

Ther are 3 obtions to fix the B26:

-make it way way more fragile to the point 20mm would e effektiv aganst it, totaly killing the entier use of the plane.. So pls not..
- giv evry german division a way to fight it in its current form, which si a massiv change just to fix 1 stupid unit.. Pls not agan..
-Or u just kick it out of A and maybe add a 2. card of vet2 B26 to B instead..

cutting somthing out isnt always a bad thing.. Spezially if it will solf a lot of critical problems without rendering the unit usless. In b the B26, the vet2 one even more, is still a very good straver and it would bring many division relying on marders back into the competition.
 
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