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The essential determinations it seems the converter uses is: what tech group are you? How high are your tech levels in relation to the tech leader? How close are your sliders to westernizing?
So I think only Eastern and Western (and possibly Ottoman) tech groups can be fully civilized at Vic2 start, and if you research high enough you can have quite a few techs already researched, with Muslim can be almost civilized. I know as an Otto game where I never Westernized and was tech leader I was fully civilized and some of the Muslim nations were mostly civilized due to decent tech levels and sliders (since they tended to match mine as I forced the release of them). I haven't tried a conversion as a non-westernized, tech leading Muslim state, and I doubt any other tech group could be a tech leader or even close.
So I think only Eastern and Western (and possibly Ottoman) tech groups can be fully civilized at Vic2 start, and if you research high enough you can have quite a few techs already researched, with Muslim can be almost civilized. I know as an Otto game where I never Westernized and was tech leader I was fully civilized and some of the Muslim nations were mostly civilized due to decent tech levels and sliders (since they tended to match mine as I forced the release of them). I haven't tried a conversion as a non-westernized, tech leading Muslim state, and I doubt any other tech group could be a tech leader or even close.
Seems kind of silly that they have muskets and culverins but won't be civilized.
Ethiopia had musketmen at that time as well IIRC, plus various free Indian states had rocket-esque weapons (which the British would eventually utilize in their warships) and they weren't "civilized" in Vicky II. Really that whole system is based on the "West"'s perspective, and many nations we'd consider civilized today weren't back then.
On the topic of AI Westernizing in EU3, I've only ever seen or heard of Oman doing so (with the exception of WolfSnakeCaffer's post above me).
EDIT: In D&T I've seen the Mayan state of Kan'ek westernize but that's in a mod, so I can't say it counts for much.
Its not really the wests perspective but histories perspective. Western nations were technologically superior and advanced more rapidly then non-western nations. The term westernization refers to when non-western nations embraced the ideologies that made the west great.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westernization
I've also seen, I think it was the Cherokee westernize, in EU3, but they were under Scottish rule for about 75-100 years before rebelling, so that probably is why. They weren't legitimate Cherokee, but Scottish who adopted the name of the former rulers of the province.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westernization
I've also seen, I think it was the Cherokee westernize, in EU3, but they were under Scottish rule for about 75-100 years before rebelling, so that probably is why. They weren't legitimate Cherokee, but Scottish who adopted the name of the former rulers of the province.
Most of the countries that find it easy to westernise don't last long enough - for example, Granada starts out with the sliders to westernise, but will only very rarely last long enough to do so.
Kanem Bornu westernized in PrawnStar's IN Iroquois AAR, if I remember correctly
(on the other half, there was a massive Iroquois blob devouring Castile, so that's to be expected)
(on the other half, there was a massive Iroquois blob devouring Castile, so that's to be expected)
It's difficult to say that they weren't civilized though. You don't need to be super-advanced for that.
And your case with the Iroquois would be because they had become Scottish. Role-play wise I'd say they were colonial revolters.
THE MIDDLE EAST AND CENTRAL ASIA, 1765-1805.
By the middle of the seventeenth century, the steppe nomads had been almost completely subjugated, but the proud peoples of Central Asia still remembered that they had once ruled an empire stretching from the Pacific to the Baltic Sea. They believed it was only a matter of time before they would rise again. And over the following century, they were able to take advantage of the unrest in China, the western onslaught on Byzantium, and Norway and Sibir’s involvements in far away Europe to regain their independence.
It had begun with the revolt of the Oirat Horde in the southern reaches of Sibir,which was soon followed by the Khivan revolution in the early 18th century. By the middle of the 18th century, much of the lands of central Asia were once again ruled by steppe nomads, though they had adopted the religions of their conquerors. The Mongol Khanate was Buddhist, Khiva Confucian, the Chagatai Orthodox, and the Kazakhs and Oirat Hordes were Catholic. In truth, they had often been forced to pay tribute or accept vassalization by their more advanced neighbors, but they had regained their autonomy.
The Middle East and Central Asia in 1763:
But the attentions of the powerful, populous nations around them could not be diverted from the heart of Asia indefinitely. After the last wave of Hungarian aggression was over, Emperor Andronikos VI Doukas of Byzantium was eager to rebuild the tattered prestige of his nation and saw regaining control of the East as the key. Recalling how his ancestors had brought the mighty Timurids to their knees, Andronikos and his son Demetrios IV pursued an aggressive settlement and occupation plan that slowly reassimilated the Khivan Khanate into his empire over the next twenty years. The Indian nations copied his successful strategy and further squeezed Khiva from the south and east.
Lack of unity plagued the hordes as well. When Ogadei III Chagatayid of the Mongol Khanate became a vassal of Tibet, then suffered a humiliating defeat by the Chinese nation of Wu in 1765. This sign of weakness induced the Kyrgyz tribes of its western reaches to pledge their allegiance to the rival Chagatai and Kazakh hordes. In the north, the Durrani declared their independence as well. Thus splintered, none of the states were strong enough to resist their neighbors and the Chagatai became vassals of Byzantium, and Sibir ruled over Kazakh and Oirat. By the late 1770’s, Demetrios IV was confident enough in his position to return his attention elsewhere, tightening the central control of the Empire, ending the autonomy of Ak Koyunlu in 1777.
The Middle East and Central Asia in 1784:
Demetrios was soon at war with Khiva and Kazakh once more, however and in 1783-1784 and again in 1791, they were able to force rare territorial concessions from the proud tribes. To the north, the last muslim state of central Asia, Astrakhan, was finally subjugated by Norway. The last remnants of Khiva fell into Vijayanagar’s control in 1791, while Wu repeatedly defeated and occupied the Chagatai and Mongol Hordes. The outsiders were closing in on all sides. The Mongol renaissance seemed to have been a brief one.
The end of the 18th century saw Byzantium’s attentions turn to eliminating the Oirat Horde while Norway advanced in Kazakh. By this time Andronikos VII ruled the Empire, and though his realm looked mighty on paper, it still struggled in many ways. Even after absorbing Dulkadir, it remained unable to maintain firm land communications between Constantinople and its possessions in the east, and the Imperial coffers saw little return for the investments it made in reconquest, and the Empire’s financial troubles that had begun during the Hundred Years war had never abated.
The problem was that Eastern Anatolia remained in other hands. The Austrians had absorbed the important trade center of Amisos into their realm, and the troublesome Doge Argyros Angelus of Achaea led a network of alliances with the small states of Qasim Khanate and Armenia. While Achaea was of little consequence in itself, King Matyas III Ronai of Hungary had made it clear that he viewed all the small states of the Balkans as under his protection. Andronikos was well aware that the only reason for forty years of progress in the east had been the quiet in the west. They could not risk another war with Hungary or Austria.
The Middle East and Central Asia in 1805:
By the middle of the seventeenth century, the steppe nomads had been almost completely subjugated, but the proud peoples of Central Asia still remembered that they had once ruled an empire stretching from the Pacific to the Baltic Sea. They believed it was only a matter of time before they would rise again. And over the following century, they were able to take advantage of the unrest in China, the western onslaught on Byzantium, and Norway and Sibir’s involvements in far away Europe to regain their independence.
It had begun with the revolt of the Oirat Horde in the southern reaches of Sibir,which was soon followed by the Khivan revolution in the early 18th century. By the middle of the 18th century, much of the lands of central Asia were once again ruled by steppe nomads, though they had adopted the religions of their conquerors. The Mongol Khanate was Buddhist, Khiva Confucian, the Chagatai Orthodox, and the Kazakhs and Oirat Hordes were Catholic. In truth, they had often been forced to pay tribute or accept vassalization by their more advanced neighbors, but they had regained their autonomy.
The Middle East and Central Asia in 1763:
But the attentions of the powerful, populous nations around them could not be diverted from the heart of Asia indefinitely. After the last wave of Hungarian aggression was over, Emperor Andronikos VI Doukas of Byzantium was eager to rebuild the tattered prestige of his nation and saw regaining control of the East as the key. Recalling how his ancestors had brought the mighty Timurids to their knees, Andronikos and his son Demetrios IV pursued an aggressive settlement and occupation plan that slowly reassimilated the Khivan Khanate into his empire over the next twenty years. The Indian nations copied his successful strategy and further squeezed Khiva from the south and east.
Lack of unity plagued the hordes as well. When Ogadei III Chagatayid of the Mongol Khanate became a vassal of Tibet, then suffered a humiliating defeat by the Chinese nation of Wu in 1765. This sign of weakness induced the Kyrgyz tribes of its western reaches to pledge their allegiance to the rival Chagatai and Kazakh hordes. In the north, the Durrani declared their independence as well. Thus splintered, none of the states were strong enough to resist their neighbors and the Chagatai became vassals of Byzantium, and Sibir ruled over Kazakh and Oirat. By the late 1770’s, Demetrios IV was confident enough in his position to return his attention elsewhere, tightening the central control of the Empire, ending the autonomy of Ak Koyunlu in 1777.
The Middle East and Central Asia in 1784:
Demetrios was soon at war with Khiva and Kazakh once more, however and in 1783-1784 and again in 1791, they were able to force rare territorial concessions from the proud tribes. To the north, the last muslim state of central Asia, Astrakhan, was finally subjugated by Norway. The last remnants of Khiva fell into Vijayanagar’s control in 1791, while Wu repeatedly defeated and occupied the Chagatai and Mongol Hordes. The outsiders were closing in on all sides. The Mongol renaissance seemed to have been a brief one.
The end of the 18th century saw Byzantium’s attentions turn to eliminating the Oirat Horde while Norway advanced in Kazakh. By this time Andronikos VII ruled the Empire, and though his realm looked mighty on paper, it still struggled in many ways. Even after absorbing Dulkadir, it remained unable to maintain firm land communications between Constantinople and its possessions in the east, and the Imperial coffers saw little return for the investments it made in reconquest, and the Empire’s financial troubles that had begun during the Hundred Years war had never abated.
The problem was that Eastern Anatolia remained in other hands. The Austrians had absorbed the important trade center of Amisos into their realm, and the troublesome Doge Argyros Angelus of Achaea led a network of alliances with the small states of Qasim Khanate and Armenia. While Achaea was of little consequence in itself, King Matyas III Ronai of Hungary had made it clear that he viewed all the small states of the Balkans as under his protection. Andronikos was well aware that the only reason for forty years of progress in the east had been the quiet in the west. They could not risk another war with Hungary or Austria.
The Middle East and Central Asia in 1805:
Revolutions yet? Never actually got to this point in my games, so I could be mistaken.
Also, won't Byzantium be so glad to be rid of their monstrously high inflation in a few years once we get to Victoria II.
Also, won't Byzantium be so glad to be rid of their monstrously high inflation in a few years once we get to Victoria II.
Which of the little states around Byzantium are their vassals and which are independent? It's a little hard to interpret. Do you suppose you could post a diplomacy map for them to make it clearer?
(And Achaea is a republic? How did that happen?)
(And Achaea is a republic? How did that happen?)
@TSSL, Byzantium has only three vassals now, Trebizond, Funj and Mamlukes. Hungary and Austria forced them to divest themselves of most of them and others they've absorbed. As to how it became an administrative Republic, it might have been a revolution. All it says in the history is that in 1747, the Administrative Republic was graciously instituted by Dionysios Spagnoli. Or maybe the path from Administrative Monarchy to Administrative Republic is popular for Greek states, because I notice Epirus is one, too.
As to revolutions, there's one significant one that I noticed, but I haven't got the message log settings right to distinguish between governments breaking and adjusting sliders and ones that actually result in a new government.
As to revolutions, there's one significant one that I noticed, but I haven't got the message log settings right to distinguish between governments breaking and adjusting sliders and ones that actually result in a new government.
So the remnants of the Roman Empire are essentially Persia now.
I can't decide if Khosrau II would be horrified, or grimly amused that the Arabs lost Persia too.
I can't decide if Khosrau II would be horrified, or grimly amused that the Arabs lost Persia too.
Really sad that lienster doesnt seem like it will be in position to do anything in V2. England is looking very strong as is frankfurt, sibir and hungary.
@DC, Malacca and the other states in Malaysia/Indonesia are muslim, as are Sicily and Oman. The picture hasn't really changed since the Byzantines stopped expanding in the mid-17th century.
@ Warlord, I guess in a geographic sense, the Byzantines are in Persia, but the productive part of the empire is still around Constantinople. I'd still characterize it as Alexander's Empire, basically. Overseas penalties mean that all the possessions beyond Anatolia give them hardly any income, unfortunately. As to Khosrau II, I don't suppose the Arabs were even on his radar screen, and they didn't hold Persia for long historically.
@ Warlord, I guess in a geographic sense, the Byzantines are in Persia, but the productive part of the empire is still around Constantinople. I'd still characterize it as Alexander's Empire, basically. Overseas penalties mean that all the possessions beyond Anatolia give them hardly any income, unfortunately. As to Khosrau II, I don't suppose the Arabs were even on his radar screen, and they didn't hold Persia for long historically.
Victoria is going to be very interesting. North and South America are very fragmented and with all these powerful globe spanning monarchies, we might see more than a few revolutions. I'm really curious how a powerful independent Hungary will alter things for Victoria and what will happen with German unification wars? Will Frankfurt and Austria be at each others throats, with Frankfurt taking the role of Prussia?
When did the capital move back to constantinople? Wasn't it moved to Alexandria or somewhere in Egypt?