A look to the map of Lombardy

[TheVikingWarrior]

Hey there!

With the announcement that Europe would be the focus for the next update, and with the influx of map suggestion from the community, I decided to throw my own hat into the ring.

Inspired by @Van Kasten ’s brilliant suggestion of Central Italy, I decided to compile a list of changes to the map of the Duchy of Milan (and Lombardy). I’m going to point out my reasoning for each change in spoilers, look at different possibilities if it’s possible, and explain why I prioritized certain options over others.

Spoiler: Maps for reference

Index

1. Lombardy
2. Emilia & Novara
3. Rivers and Lakes
4. The Ambrosian Republic

Lombardy

Lombardy is dominated by the duchy of Milan, emerging local power under the Visconti family. However, Milan has lost the eastern part of Lombardy to Venice during the wars of the last decades, losing Brescia and Bergamo to them. To the south, the independent Magravate of Mantova thrives under the Gonzaga.

For Lombardy, I added the provinces of Como, Pavia, and Bergamo. For accommodating the new provinces I split the Area in western and eastern Lombardy.

Disclaimer: I tweaked the development of the provinces, of course the devs know better than me, but the ratio should be kept.


- Milan: the capital of Duchy. In the last century, under the rule of the Visconti dynasty, Milan had expanded in all of Lombardy. This had made the city extremely rich, and it was one of the first cities in Europe to reach 100.000 citizens. The province includes Milan, the Milanese hinterland, Monza and the Milanese rural counties.

Spoiler: Stats

Province: Milano (please make it so Latin culture have the dynamic name of Milano)
Capital: Milano
Ownership & Cores: Milan
Culture: Lombard
Area: Western Lombardy
Dev: 10/10/7 (total: 27)
Terrain: Farmlands
Tradegood: Cloth (Milan also had a thriving weapon industry, so Iron could be an option maybe?)

- Como: the second biggest city in northern Lombardy after Bergamo and birthplace of Alessandro Volta, it had been an important city-state in the middle ages as it controlled the important mountain valleys of Ticino and Valtellina and their mountain passes. A thorn in the sides of Milan for many years, by this time the city had faced a decline after the civil war following the death of Duke Gian Galeazzo. Still, though, it was still the main cities of the region and develop the most important silk industry of Italy. The province includes Como, Lecco, Varese, and Ticino.

Spoiler: Stats

Province: Como
Capital: Como
Ownership & Cores: Milan
Culture: Lombard
Area: Western Lombardy
Dev: 4/4/2 (total: 10)
Terrain: Mountains
Tradegood: Wool (Como was known for its wool production, should change to silk around 1500)

Why Como? As already mentioned, it was the most important city in the area. Lombardy could use some more provinces as it is the most urbanized region in Europe with Flanders. It also gives a buffer for Milan with Switzerland, giving a province for the two to fight over.


- Pavia: ex-capital of the Lombard Kingdom, it had been an important center of resistance against the hegemony of Milan, being the last Lombard city to fall to the Visconti in 1360. In 1444 it is still an important center, with a rich library, and it would see one of the decisive battles of the Italian Wars. The province includes Pavia, Vigevano, Voghera, and Tortona.

Spoiler: Stats

Province: Pavia
Capital: Pavia
Ownership & Cores: Milan
Culture: Lombard
Area: Western Lombardy
Dev: 5/4/4 (total: 14)
Terrain: Farmlands
Tradegood: Cloth (important center of cloth production)

Why Pavia? Again, it was a very important city in the area and Lombardy could use some more provinces. It also had a very important market that could justify a lvl. 1 Center of trade.


- Cremona: Third largest city of Lombardy and old Milanese rival. In 1444 Francesco Sforza has the title of Count of Cremona at game start (as an appanage). The province includes Cremona, Crema, and Lodi.

Spoiler: Stats

Province: Cremona
Capital: Cremona
Ownership & Cores: Milan
Culture: Lombard
Area: Western Lombardy
Dev: 7/7/4 (total: 18)
Terrain: Farmlands
Tradegood: Grain (though cloth could be another option)

- Bergamo: Recently conquered by Venice, Bergamo was always separate from Brescia and in the Middle Ages ruled over a sizable territory. It was nestled on a hilltop and surrounded by enormous walls. Today it’s the second biggest city in Lombardy, though it was still sizable at the time. The province includes Bergamo, it’s mountain valleys and hinterland.

Spoiler: Stats

Province: Bergamo
Capital: Bergamo
Ownership & Cores: Venice (Cores: Milan)
Culture: Lombard
Area: Eastern Lombardy
Dev: 5/4/4 (total: 13)
Terrain: Hills
Tradegood: Iron (was extracted from the Alps and worked in the city)

Why Bergamo? The city was quite important and wealthy, it warrants it’s own province.


- Brescia: Like Bergamo, recently conquered by Venice. One of the biggest cities of Lombardy, it would flourish under Venice until Napoleon. The province includes Brescia and Valcamonica.

Spoiler: Stats

Province: Brescia
Capital: Brescia
Ownership & Cores: Venice (Cores: Milan)
Culture: Lombard
Area: Eastern Lombardy
Dev: 7/7/4 (total: 18)
Terrain: Hills
Tradegood: Cloth

- Mantova: Ruled by the Gonzaga family, Mantova would diplomatically play its cards between Venice and Milan for many centuries, sometimes allying with one or the other. They would remain independent until 1708.

Spoiler: Stats

Province: Mantova
Capital: Mantova
Ownership & Cores: Mantua
Culture: Lombard
Area: Eastern Lombardy
Dev: 9/8/4 (total: 21)
Terrain: Farmland
Tradegood: Livestock

But why not these other provinces?

There have been other suggestions on the region, and here I’m going to touch on the reasoning on why I didn’t put them in:

Ticino: Only reason why it would be mentioned is that it was conquered and held by the Swiss from 1502-1512 (the conquest was gradual, as it was not a single administrative entity). A province could be carved out, but it would have low dev (around 6 total) and it would mainly be added for sake of historical borders. The nearby province of Como was a lot more important.

Valtellina: I wouldn’t actually be opposed to a province that went from Como to Sudtirol, flanked by both sides by wasteland. It would have interesting gameplay options and the valley has an interesting history, being conquered by the Swiss for nearly 3 centuries. The province would be quite low dev thought (around 5 total, with Livestock), but if the dev would see it fit in I would support it.

Alessandria: Alessandria would be a good pick if there was space for it. If a province can be squeezed between Pavia and Montferrat it would be a good pick (thought Pavia was both bigger, more influential and more populated then Alessandria). The problem is, is there space for it?

Less serious suggestions would be Crema, as it was a Venetian exclave in Milan, and Lodi in the province of Cremona.


Emilia & Novara

Milan didn’t own all of Emilia, but it did own two important cities: Parma and Piacenza. The first is already in the game, as it would, later on, have its own duchy. However in 1444 Piacenza was the biggest city of the two. Because of this, I decided to split the province in two.

- Parma would see it’s development drop from 16 to 12.


- Piacenza then should be added:

Spoiler: Stats

Province: Piacenza
Capital: Piacenza
Ownership & Cores: Milan (Cores: Parma)
Culture: Romagnan
Area: Emilia
Dev: 5/5/3 (total: 13)
Terrain: Hills
Tradegood: Grain

- Novara

With the addition of Pavia, Novara would lose most of its dev to it, going from (7-7-5) to 4-3-3, as it was quite a small city.


Rivers and Lakes

Lombardy is a region of rivers and lakes: the most important being Lago Maggiore, Lago di Como, and Lago di Garda. While certainly not mandatory, it would give a nice flavor to the area. Also, two important rivers are missing: the Adda and Mincio.

Spoiler: Rivers and Lakes

The Ambrosian Republic

While this post is for map changes, I’ll still link my suggestion for the Ambrosian Republic as i is terribly ahistorical. In my suggestion some values are balanced and there is a chance to see Francesco Sforza rise as the new Duke, instead of having an ahistorical, two-century-long republic.

Link to thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-repubblica-ambrosiana.1064306/#post-23688666


Obligatory tag for @neondt

 

[TheVikingWarrior]

A province or a link is needed between Savoy and Turin. It makes no sense that if Switzerland gains its cores back then Savoy is cut open in two separated part.

Oh yeah, I was specifically talking about the province Aosta, but I 100% agree that the mountain wastelands should be tweaked. I actually suggested this 2 years ago:

- I suggest to move the pass between Piemonte and Savoy a bit south, to close Piemonte off from the Swiss provinces (there are no major passes in that part of the Alps).
- I would also suggest to add the Dolomites mountains between Venice and Austria, to help the Italian states to defend from the north.

 

[Van Kasten]

An elegant and practical solution!
I love it!

Also the Dolomites are necessary since they played a big role in isolating part of the Venetian mainland from Austria. They will also add more strategic depth in the region, which is too easily invaded as of now.

 

[Mic199]

This is a very nice suggestion. I really hope alpine Italy will get some distinct flavour after the big patch at the end of the year. Can I offer a few suggestion on the alpine passes?

- I suggest to move the pass between Piemonte and Savoy a bit south, to close Piemonte off from the Swiss provinces (there are no major passes in that part of the Alps).
- I would also suggest to add the Dolomites mountains between Venice and Austria, to help the Italian states to defend from the north.

I completely agree the Dolomites should be added.

For the Savoyard mountains, how about the Saint Bernard passes? They are major passes connecting Piemont and Switzerland. Copying straight from the wiki:
"Great St Bernard is one of the most ancient passes through the Western Alps, with evidence of use as far back as the Bronze Age and surviving traces of a Roman road. In 1800, Napoleon's army used the pass to enter Italy". Could we not keep the connection between Piemont and Valais? (provided Aosta is not added)

However, I do agree there should be a connection between Piemont and Savoy, to represent the Col de l’Argentière and Col de Montgenèvre. Both are possibly even more important than the Saint Bernards passes.

If any connection is to be replaced by mountains, I would go for the Valais-Savoy connection. Basically, all (non flying) traffic going from Sion to Geneva will pass trough either lac Léman (lake of Geneva) or Lausanne (Vaud).

I know a bit less about the Central Alps, but the Wäldstatte-Milan connection seems a bit odd to me. I haven't been able to figure out what it represents. Would it not be better to replace it with a Grisons-Milan and/or Grisons-Brescia connection, representing the Splügen and Septimer passes? (which would also be nice for gameplay, because of the fort in Grisons)

 

[TheVikingWarrior]

This is a very nice suggestion. I really hope alpine Italy will get some distinct flavour after the big patch at the end of the year. Can I offer a few suggestion on the alpine passes?



I completely agree the Dolomites should be added.

For the Savoyard mountains, how about the Saint Bernard passes? They are major passes connecting Piemont and Switzerland. Copying straight from the wiki:
"Great St Bernard is one of the most ancient passes through the Western Alps, with evidence of use as far back as the Bronze Age and surviving traces of a Roman road. In 1800, Napoleon's army used the pass to enter Italy". Could we not keep the connection between Piemont and Valais? (provided Aosta is not added)

However, I do agree there should be a connection between Piemont and Savoy, to represent the Col de l’Argentière and Col de Montgenèvre. Both are possibly even more important than the Saint Bernards passes.

If any connection is to be replaced by mountains, I would go for the Valais-Savoy connection. Basically, all (non flying) traffic going from Sion to Geneva will pass trough either lac Léman (lake of Geneva) or Lausanne (Vaud).

I know a bit less about the Central Alps, but the Wäldstatte-Milan connection seems a bit odd to me. I haven't been able to figure out what it represents. Would it not be better to replace it with a Grisons-Milan and/or Grisons-Brescia connection, representing the Splügen and Septimer passes? (which would also be nice for gameplay, because of the fort in Grisons)

Sorry for not responding before.

Yeah I did not put enough thought into the passes between Piedmont, Savoy and Valais. I guess it’s not that easy to implement the perfect mountain pass.

Wäldstatte-Milan represents the San Gothard pass and a few lesser ones.

 

[Mic199]

Sorry for not responding before.

No problem, we all do this in our spare time I am already glad you made this great thread to point out improvements in Lombardy I also would like to see.

Yeah I did not put enough thought into the passes between Piedmont, Savoy and Valais. I guess it’s not that easy to implement the perfect mountain pass.

Wäldstatte-Milan represents the San Gothard pass and a few lesser ones.

Ah, I think you are right, I was confused as it is not on the edge of the province. Maybe the devs could add a Wäldstatte-Como-Graubunden Tripoint. Then the Swiss cannot get into core Milan at one go, and the Lombardians cannot move into core Swiss territory, as they will be blocked by the fortress in Graubunden.

 

[TheVikingWarrior]

So, recently in the last dev diary I left a comment asking the devs to take Como in strong consideration, and I got a response from @Ofaloaf

Como from a gameplay perspective is sort of redundant with Milan as it is. Milan, being a capital with a fort, already nicely plugs up the Alpine pass there. Adding Como would... add a fort that nicely plugs up the Alpine pass there.

While I respect his opinion, I strongly disagree with his statement, and since I wanted to do a well worded response here, where it both fits the original post and doesn’t get drowned by the hundreds of comments in the Dev Diary. I hope the devs don’t get offended and that I don’t sound arrogant, and that they will read my consideration on the province of Como.

Gameplay reasons

So I’m going to start with the devs reasoning, where he says that from a gameplay perspective, “Adding Como would... add a fort that nicely plugs up the Alpine pass there.”, function that already Milan has. I do agree that Como’s main gameplay function would be that, what I don’t agree with is that Milan should have that role instead.

Looking from a historical standpoint, to enter the duchy of Milan from the north you had 3 main options: through todays Ticino valley, through Valchiavenna and through Valtellina, both the latter two conjunctioning at the top of Lake Como. The defense to the paths were Bellinzona for the first and other forts, like Forte Fuentes at Colico, to the north. The swiss did not easily conquer past these defensive works. They conquered territories north of Bellinzona before 1512, but Bellinzona itself was sold to the Swiss.

So historically, any attackers from the north had to go through various defensive works before getting into the pre-alps, let alone the Po valley itself. Now instead a Swiss army can go from the Canton of Uri directly under the walls of Milan, without anything stopping them in their path.

What this situation creates is that:
- Arguably the most important city of Italy (in contests with Venice and Rome), with a population of around 100.000, one of the highest in Europe, can be directly attacked and sieged from the north, unless you go and conquered Wäldstatte with never happened.
- The province gains Devastation, a mechanic I know the devs have to hearth. A good defence should in fact be rewarded with Prosperity, which is currently impossible unless you enter the Switzerland main.
- Milan is farmland (as it should be), but between Uri and Milan we have the Alps and at least 100 km of Valleys and choke points that could be easily blockade and defended, like Bellinzona (under the post I’m going to give a bit more info on Bellinzona). Doesn’t make sense that Milan has such a hard time attacking Switzerland while the Swiss can just avalanche down into the Po valley. With Como being a mountain province Milan and an eventual Italy had a strong defensive point, that doesn’t require the most populated city in Italy to be on the front lines.
- Milan’s dev is one of the highest in Europe (the highest maybe?), the addition of Como would make it more on the lines of Venice and Paris.
- Another fort would not ruin Milan’s economy, as it start with a decent income, and it is certainly not the only example of two forts bordering each other (Edirne and Salonik, Teutonic order has 3 forts bordering their capital fort)
- Lastly, gameplay wise or map wise, the province definitely fits on the map in size, so it isn’t a ridiculous small province suggestion like others.

Spoiler: Bellinzona and Como

Stampa of Bellinzona

Walls of Como

Historical reasons

Como has always been somewhat independent from Milan from it’s early history. Ever since the Three Capitoline Schism of the VII century Como’s bishop was a suffrage of the Patrician of Aquileia, and not the Archbishop of Milan like the rest of Lombardy. In the age of the Comune, Como had their independent institutions from 1107, and fought various wars against Milan, often against the Lombard League (War of 1118-1127, First Lombard League, Peace of 1194, first and second peace of Lomazzo). Como was sold to Azzone Visconti by the Signore of the city, Franchino Rusca, in 1335, but Milan was not directly governed by Milan and kept its independent institutions (as the Statuti of 1335 attests to). After the death of Gian Galeazzo Visconti (1402), the whole Milanese state fell apart, where Como regained its independence under the Rusca family, and kept it until 1416, less than 30 years before game start. Again after the death of Filippo Maria Visconti the Milanese state fell apart in 1448 (Ambrosian republic suggestion plug), Como declared independence creating their own republic, the Repubblica di Sant’Abbondio, who fought against the Sforza and held out a week longer than Milan. After this Como kept the status of county and later became the administrative capital of the province north of Milan during the Austrian period.

Province wise Como’s territory was one of the biggest in Comune period, actually bigger than Milan’s, while the city itself had a population that swinged between 10.000 and 18.000.

Map of the Diocese, which followed the cities territory: http://mobile.hls-dhs-dss.ch/m.php?article=I7015.php

The fort is instead justified by Bellinzona, city in the Ticino valley who completely blockaded the valley from the north with two (later 3 under Sforza) castles, a wall and a fortified bridge. Various forts protected the north of Lake Como (Castle of Musso, later Forte di Fuentes), while Como had some of the most impressive city walls of its time in Italy.

Flavour reasoning

Probably the least import part, but can give some ideas for events or missions related to the province.

First of all Como became a major production center of silk in the ‘600. Introduced by the Sforza in the XV century, it quickly overtook the traditional wool production Como was know for, and the industry received an enormous boom with the Industrial revolution, earning the city the name of Italian capital of silk.

Second, connected to my suggestion for the Ambrosian Republic, that could definitely be expanded as a disaster and flavor events, Como would be a prime scope for such an event, with the rise of rebels in the city or an increase of autonomy for example.

On the lake Gian Giacomo Medici il Medeghino (not that family medici) became a pirate on the lake, carving its own county that war recognized by the emperor and became a Condottiero for him after betraying the Milanese.

Important scientists from Como were Bishop Paolo Gallio, diplomat and humanist, the Pope Innocenzo XI, Giovanni Saccheri, father of non-euclidei Geometry, Giulio Cesare Gattoni who was a scientist working with lightning and the most famous Alessandro Volta.

After this presentation, I hope that the dev can see why the addition of Como would not just be some fluff, but an actual improvement to the gameplay.

 

[Pilbur]

Piemonte

- I'm 100% for Saluzzo, it had an interesting role in the power game between Savoy and France, definitely a challenging start.
- I'm not too hot for Aosta, as it has the same problem of Valtellina. It does have a strong historical basis to be in the game, however.
- I would love to see Asti in the game as it was an Orleanese (yes, the dukes in France) exclave for some time, but sadly there is no space as Monferrat is in the way.

Two changes I would like to propose are:

- Rename Cuneo to Mondovì. Cuneo was a minor city under Savoy, while Mondovì was both bigger in population and the Savoyards built a university there.
- Rename Albenga (in Liguria) to Savona, definitely the second most important city in Liguria after Genova.

- Also, back to my original suggestion, I think a fort should be added to Como, to represent the fortified city of Bellinzona in Ticino. Bellinzona barred the pass between Italy and Switzerland with it's 3 castles and walls from one end to the other of the valley.

I agree almost entirerly with the suggestions for Piedmont.

1) Saluzzo could be an interesting new tag, even if I think that in 1444 it was already too small to be a significan player. It would be mostly for flavour.
2) Aosta is not really a necessity.
3) Asti would be nice if possible to create a small province between Cuneo/Mondovì and Monferrat

4) Renaming Cuneo into Mondovì and Albenga into Savona is absolutely wise, looking at how those cities fared back then. Mondovì and Savona were bigger and politically more relevant that the current picks (Savona still is, Mondovì was finally supplanted by Cuneo as the administrative centre of southwestern Piedmont in the XIX century)

 

[TheVikingWarrior]

I agree almost entirerly with the suggestions for Piedmont.

1) Saluzzo could be an interesting new tag, even if I think that in 1444 it was already too small to be a significan player. It would be mostly for flavour.
2) Aosta is not really a necessity.
3) Asti would be nice if possible to create a small province between Cuneo/Mondovì and Monferrat

4) Renaming Cuneo into Mondovì and Albenga into Savona is absolutely wise, looking at how those cities fared back then. Mondovì and Savona were bigger and politically more relevant that the current picks (Savona still is, Mondovì was finally supplanted by Cuneo as the administrative centre of southwestern Piedmont in the XIX century)

Glad you like it and noticed it. Maybe it’s not clear in the comment but I don’t advocate for a Aosta province.

 

[Pilbur]

Yeah I got it, and agree. Better to dedicate a slot to Vercelli (or even Ivrea) if they are in the mood of expanding Northern Piedmont.

 

[Tomarz]

Two provinces are a must have for me: Pavia and Como, the second one even more so with a mountain fort, giving Milan and then Italy proper protection from the north.
Great looking map overall, probably just a little too dense? Parma could be left as is I think.

Regarding the wider picture proposed by Entrone, Bologna is surely a good addition. I would go with only one extra province in Savoy.. the most important thing in this area though is fixing the mountain passes: add one between Savoie and Piedmont, separate Savoie and Wallis. For Venice one extra province may be enough too, splitting Brescia and Verona into 3 provinces (adjust Padua so they're all of similar size?). Venice still needs some love in other areas (looking at you Dalmatia). And the Dolomites separating it a bit from Austria would be cool!

On another note, I think adding one province to Sicily may be nice, but more is probably an overkill.

 

[TheVikingWarrior]

After the last dev diary on Italy, I am quite happy with the situation in Northern Italy, and I won't talk about new provinces or changes to shapes as there has been plenty in the comments of the dev diary.
I would, however, like to suggest to the devs, @Ofaloaf , to change the name of two current provinces for more appropriate candidates, these are:

- Rename Cuneo to Mondovì. Cuneo was a minor city under Savoy, while Mondovì was both bigger in population and the Savoyards built a university there.
- Rename Albenga to Savona, definitely the second most important city in Liguria after Genova, while Albenga was not as big or important.

- Also, something more gameplay wise, have the vassalage between Savoy and Monferrat break at some point as it did in history, as it is such a shame to see the Monferrat disappear in 1455 when they actually stayed on the map until 1533

Hope you will take these into consideration and keep up the good work!

 

[Van Kasten]

Also, something more gameplay wise, have the vassalage between Savoy and Monferrat break at some point as it did in history, as it is such a shame to see the Monferrat disappear in 1455 when they actually stayed on the map until 1533

I have come up with an event of the death of the starting ruler of Montferrat. Since he lost a war against Savoy, he became vassal of the Duke. However, only he was to be considered vassal, and in fact after his death Montferrat became independent and waged minor skirmishes and wars with Savoy and other neighbors, before finishing under PU with Mantua. Later I could post the event here if you do not mind.