A modest proposal concerning IC

[Myth]

I had a thought concerning IC earlier today or yesterday or some time, which I envision could be a sort of compromise between those who want specialized IC types and those who, while not quite satisfied with the system as it is in HoI2, don't want to go to that sort of extreme. What I'm proposing is a sort of "cooling down" for used IC (at least in production). What I mean is that, suppose the player makes a series of 99 infantry, it's rather ridiculous that the next month the player can simply cancel that serial run and shift all those ICs into consumer goods or whatever. Thus, I propose that for any cancelled run, those ICs that were being used for the cancelled serial are frozen (can't be used) until they're "retooled," which could be a function of, say, 24 hours multiplied by the number of units left in the serial run when it was cancelled. Thus, say, if a player creates a 1x5 serial run of armor and cancels it after the 4th one then he'll have those 17 (or whatever) IC frozen for 24 hours before he can use them for something else. Similarly, if it's 1x20 infantry and the run is cancelled after the 10th then it'll be 6 IC frozen for 240 hours, or 10 days.

IMHO such an addition would make the player put more thought into production without making it a hassle of balancing a half-dozen different types of ICs or whatnot. It'd also reduce gameyness such as building a line or two of 99 infantry right at the start because it'll go on nearly forever, get the gearing bonus as it goes and you can cancel it any time you want with no ill effects. Also, it could even be extended to when a serial completes on its own, though with a lower penalty (say, 12 hours by one tenth the size of the serial, rounded up to the nearest whole number or something). What do others think of such a possible feature?

 

[unmerged(59108)]

I was thinking something along those lines, but 24 hours is a veeeeeery small amount of time in HoI2. Perhaps 3 days or even a week is more suitable. No, 3 days is good.

 

[Myth]

3 days might be too long. If you make a series of 10 armored divisions, and then cancel it after the 4th one because you realized you wanted to make transports to carry them over the Channel instead, that'd be a freeze on 15 or 17 IC (or whatever) for 18 days. While probably more realistic than if we went with the 24 hours one (which'd be 6 days), gameplay-wise the 6 days is probably better, I'd think. The goal isn't really to drive nails through people's hands if they happen to cancel a production but to throw in a bit more realism and give players a bit more incentive to think in detail about what they're building and how it fits in with their strategy rather than "I'll just have 99 infantry being built in series until I decide to cancel it and swap that IC into interceptors" or whatever.

In any case, this is just a basic idea to throw out to Paradox for a HoI3, it'd be up to them (if they use it) to decide on the actual impact themselves

 

[Fernando Torres]

Good idea, I support it.

 

[unmerged(59108)]

24 hous is probably way too little to be even remotely realistic. Imagine you've got a factory producing velociraptors, and then suddenly you need a lot of soap to wash them. How do you convert it that fast? It'd take a couple months in real life!

 

[Myth]

Of course it's not realistic, but as I said this is mostly a gameplay element to throw a bit more strategy into production. Of course, the worse the penalty is the more the player'll have to strategize but I figured 24 hours would be a good compromise. Any shorter and its not even worth the bother, any longer and you're drawing closer to territory where production simply becomes tiresome because you have to draw it all up and calculate it perfectly in Excel before you can even begin the game

Of course, it would be preferable if, regardless of what the value might be, it were moddable so then everyone can change it to their heart's content

Good idea, I support it.

Awesome

 

[Fernando Torres]

Well, let's say that we could get a misc parameter and then we would set the delay we wish. I think it can be done with by source-mods.

 

[Myth]

Precisely what I was thinking

 

[blue emu]

What prevents you from just permanently kicking the unwanted serial run down to hte bottom of your queue, into un-funded limbo (and leaving it there forever) instead of cancelling it? Then you get to re-use the ICs immediately, without paying any penalty.

 

[Myth]

That's a good question. What about splitting the production into "current" and "queued" orders? Queued production orders can be transferred into the former, but the former can't be transferred into the latter.

 

[AdmiralNelson]

I, for one, vote 'no.' Certainly the current situation is not entirely realistic, but sometimes I like to mess around with production to see what I could make, i.e. a combination of armor and infantry, pure armor, pure infantry, cas vs int vs tac vs nav, etc., etc.. With this proposal I couldn't do that. I'd have to do the math on paper rather than letting the game tell me how long stuff would take and how much IC it would use.

I hope this is coherent. It probably isn't.

 

[mike8472]

What about some thing like this.

IC instead of actual production in a factory sense is simply a number that can support so many factories or industries. Much like IC allows so much TC to support so many units at once.

You could use the Vic model alittle that 300 IC could support a said number of factories. For example say 10 factories. These factories could be tooled to build any weapons that you had tech for. There would be a certain amount of time to tool the factory and should you want to change production there would be a delay to retool it much like there is a delay on units after battles.

This would add an element of production which I think alot of people enjoy and would open up alot of areas such as.

If you are producing lvl IV armour, your factory may produce 250 tanks per month. These tanks go into a pool and once enough are built you can form a division. Or you could use the pooled tanks to replace tanks in another division, like upgrading them. Except then there would be delay while the upgraded unit retrains in the new vehicles.

The pool of tanks would also go as replacements. So if you had alot of tank battles on the eastern front most of your new tanks would go as replacements meaning you cannot form new divisions unless you allocate more facotires to tank production. This would also force players to chose between upgrading old tanks that are no longer in production and are suffering large losses or disband the division as those units can not be replaced.

The factories could also build units like Tigers, BF-109's and so on and change production as the techs increase. This would give a sense or realism instead of the geniric type IV or V which was a step back in my opinion.

Most of this could be automated with replacements sent to units needing it, and new tanks divisions formed as enough tanks become avaible. Ofcourse this only a simple example and other units types could be linked to forming units such as artillery, and training of troops.

You could also use factory slots as shipyards which would only be limited by the number of ports you have. A lvl 10 port may be able to build 3 ships, while a lvl 2 port only 1. So depending on how many ports you have and there siez you might only be able to build no more then 5 ships at once even if you have enough factories spare as you lack the ports required.

So on conclussion IC would allow you to have so many factories or shipyards to build from. You can then select what each factory can build to suit your war plans. Much of the rest can be automated such as reinforcements and forming of new divisions. You could have an option to select to not form new units and simple build up stockpiles of tanks, artillery and replacement troops for an upcomming offensive so you have reserves.

This could be easily done and with little micromanagement for those that do not like it, or lots of micromanagement for those that do. It would add a more realist layer to production without going over board and adding in realisting delays, retooling. It could also open up strategic bombing of key facilities and a delay peroid built in while recontruction the factory, making strategic bombing worth while.

 

[froglegs]

While on the subject of IC's let me ask this:

Vanilla as well as most mods give the US a starting base IC level of 281. TRP gives 644 instead. From what I believe I know about WW2 production, the 644 figure seems a lot closer to the truth than the 281. Without meaning to bring about a heated debate, why do you think Vanilla as well as most mods use the much lower number? Is it "play balance"? Or is it something more sinister?

 

[Fernando Torres]

Certainly balance.

 

[froglegs]

Certainly balance.

The obvious point to be made then is that a given nation has some maximum level of IC's that it can use for it's own production but some, and I would include UK in this group as well as Germany (at least early on), have excess that can be given/shared with allies. My impression is that most of the Lend-Lease given to USSR for instance was excess capacity that in no way impacted or lessened what the US had to use for it's own military. The greatest cost of that Lend Lease was in the severe loss of transport ships and their crews. In some cases ~75% of a convoy was sunk in Artic waters. Should this IC distinction be made in the future and in what way can it be done?

 

[Fernando Torres]

In Compendium, the USA loose 100 ICs and UK gains 100 with the first Lend Lease.

 

[froglegs]

In Compendium, the USA loose 100 ICs and UK gains 100 with the first Lend Lease.

As I recall the US gets closer to the 644 number of base IC's in Compendium I think. Earlier this year I played Compendium as US and I remember USSR took East Prussia and most of Poland just after the Pearl event and the Yalta Conference event (a 1945 historical event) fired and screwed up the game so I quit. Don't ask me how Roosevelt got to Yalta. I believe Germany/Italy controlled all the Med. Maybe it was a fluke but I had invested hours of time and had just entered the war. Once bitten twice shy!