A modest proposal - Steel Division 2: Operation Bagration

[hellfish6]

Sorry.
Well, rejoice, your Soviet Tiger unit had more vehicle than mine.

Flames of War has a "Decoy" rule for "Spetsnaz" for Bagration (although the latter didn't exist by then, but there were special scouts performing that kind of tasks) using captured half-tracks and equipment to close on German position under a false flag.
I know captured SdKfz 250 or 251 were used by the Soviets when possible, but I've always wondered if there was some truth behind that?

Truth to the infiltration tactics? I can recall reading about it in the past, but I'm not sure if it was the Soviets doing it. I think the East Germans had a special panzer battalion with M48s and M113s captured in Vietnam, and of course Skorzeny's Panzer Brigade 150. Soviets were kind of famous for their infiltration tactics, so I wouldn't put it past them. Using captured vehicles under a false flag, though, may have been a local tactic rather than a widespread practice.

 

[MarcoRossolini]

@EUG_MadMat

I'd be extremely careful of using Flames of War to influence game design. Their relationship with the Soviets is pretty poor to say the least (endless hordes of generic infantry in generic lists that have only one playstyle and half their options removed (no smoke for example). It would be a real disappointment if that were guided Steel Division. 1944 is when Soviets are actually getting pretty competent. Also be very careful with German kill claims. I have no reason to doubt the research of blogs like archive awareness which find that German tank cricket scores are achieved against Soviet armoured units that weren't even in action that day!

I'd also caution against using Soviet corps as the equivalent for a division. Hear me out on this one. The big names of the Red Army tend to come in either division (too small) or army flavours. To use Stalingrad, well known formations are the 62nd Army and the 13th Guards Rifle Division. Corps are in my experience rarer (though not unusual mind) than Armies and Divisions with the result that the use of corps renders the Soviets painfully generic in comparison to the iconic German divisions (1. SS LSSAH for example) they are facing. The result is, as above, generic Soviet formation that no one's ever heard of facing well known German formations.

That said, I would honestly suggest 1942 as the best year for Steel Division to do the Eastern Front. Both sides have relatively effective armour, the Germans aren't completely outmatched and the Germans have all their new kit which makes them effective as well. You have a wide range of regions from steppe to Stalingrad to Rzhev and it really is the year which everything hinges on.

 

[EUG_MadMat]

I'd be extremely careful of using Flames of War to influence game design.

Don't worry, I'm certainly not.
Actually, I'm not fond of that rule, to W40K for my taste. That's why I'm painting their miniatures but playing them with another, more realistic rule.

For another project of mine (3mm 1944 East Front), I was looking for battalion-size units with captured equipment (especially the 213rd Tank Brigade), that's how I stumbled on their "Decoy Unit" rule ... and was wondering if there was any truth to it. I would love to add a bit of German equipment to my Soviet army, just for diversity's sake.

 

[hellfish6]

@EUG_MadMat

That said, I would honestly suggest 1942 as the best year for Steel Division to do the Eastern Front. Both sides have relatively effective armour, the Germans aren't completely outmatched and the Germans have all their new kit which makes them effective as well. You have a wide range of regions from steppe to Stalingrad to Rzhev and it really is the year which everything hinges on.

I'd certainly buy it, but I've never seen a commercially successful game that takes place in this period. If a game made money, it's because it was done by an inexpensive development team (i.e. Eastern European, like the Graviteam Tactics games). Most casual players, at least those outside of Germany and Russia, want their big cats.

 

[vonLuck]

Big cats help cover up how mediocre the Panzer IV is or how bad the Panzer III matches up against T34 or KV1. There's a reason Marders and strange PaK40 carriers were developed and it has a lot to do with a desperate need for effective AT mostly in the East but also in Africa.

I wouldn't be against seeing an Eastern front 42 but Soviet OoB might be strange with all the factories still setting up in the Urals. The Soviets would enjoy a quasi qualitative advantage but their legendary hordes would have to wait for late 42 when the factories became more established and supplied more consistently.

Meanwhile the Germans produced fewer than 1000 Panzer IV's and still hadn't moved to a war economy.

Tactically and Strategically 42 was an odd and interesting time. Fighting through Ukraine and into Sevastopol and ultimately on to Stalingrad featuring some of the most varied fighting. From open plains fights to mountain fighting and desperate sieges in fortresses or cities.

Could be fun! That said I suspect Bagration or Kursk to be more likely.

von Luck

 

[Sotahullu]

Big cats help cover up how mediocre the Panzer IV is or how bad the Panzer III matches up against T34 or KV1. There's a reason Marders and strange PaK40 carriers were developed and it has a lot to do with a desperate need for effective AT mostly in the East but also in Africa.

I wouldn't be against seeing an Eastern front 42 but Soviet OoB might be strange with all the factories still setting up in the Urals. The Soviets would enjoy a quasi qualitative advantage but their legendary hordes would have to wait for late 42 when the factories became more established and supplied more consistently.

Meanwhile the Germans produced fewer than 1000 Panzer IV's and still hadn't moved to a war economy.

Tactically and Strategically 42 was an odd and interesting time. Fighting through Ukraine and into Sevastopol and ultimately on to Stalingrad featuring some of the most varied fighting. From open plains fights to mountain fighting and desperate sieges in fortresses or cities.

Could be fun! That said I suspect Bagration or Kursk to be more likely.

von Luck

Okay, time for some claim cracking:

1. Panzer III versus T-34/KV-1: Panzer III with short 50mm gun could destroy frontally T-34 at around 150m (or point blank range) while KV-1 was pretty much immune but with longer gun it could engage T-34 at 500m and could crack KV-1 in 100m by side. Issue was then that T-34/KV-1 could destroy Panzer III at around 800m while remaining immune to return fire. This was corrected with L/M version of Panzer III with extra armor but only partially. And as these gun and armor upgrades were kinda simple to do many earlier models were upgraded in field in fast rate.
2. Panzer IV was still intended as support tank in 1942 which is why there was 3 times less then Panzer III but in 1943 Panzer IV production was nearly times higher 3.5 then in 1942.
3. Soviets had very wild mix of units in Southern sector. From T-26 units (that basically survived because they were in Central Asia) to Lend Lease equipment (Matildas for example).

 

[vonLuck]

Yeah. The Panzer III reached the end of its development life with a KwK 39 L60 which proved to be effective but not at desired ranges. Unlike Europe the average tank engagement ranges were much longer - leaving much to be desired from the Panzer III. Its turret ring maxed out with the KwK39 meant the Panzer IV needed to be repurposed into a more generalist tank capable of fitting the KwK40 L43/48.

The Russians would have had a motley assortment of tanks in 42 but as the year dragged on more T34's and KV1's would have started showing up.

Not trying to badmouth the PIII just voicing the reality of the situation. Against T34's you're going to struggle with that 50mm gun. 45mm sloped @60 degrees from the vertical makes for 90mm effective protection. This effectively means that the KwK 39 L60 won't penetrate at ranges exceeding 300m or so. Targeting hatches or turret face was commonplace however that is more difficult. The PzGr40(tungsten) is effective at longer ranges but it would be a scarce commodity. This is a significant disadvantage. The KwK40 was in high demand for this reason. Simply put the Panzer III could effectively engage T34's however the T34 held a number of advantages. More than half the T34's lost in 42 were from Panzer III fire but this is somewhat expected due to the Panzer III still being the primary anti-tank tank used by the Germans.

von Luck

 

[Nerdfish]

Ferdinand need to make a crit roll every time it goes uphill. If rolling a 1 on a D20 it catches fire and explode with a "Fuel explosion" crit, on a successful save it's merely immobilized.




XD