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I thought anything with 0 as exponent became 0, just as in a multiplication. :eek:o I now see it become 1 and deep down in my memory I believe I can find a trace of that knowledge.... See what I said, higher math is not for me. It was after all 35 years since I spent time with exponential expressions like that. :D And all knowledge that is so old and thus not rely on logic but merely on learning a lesson without understanding it, will only be remembered 35 years later if one is frequently reminded during the years.

For the exponent I used the fortress level minus 1. Is that not what your formula says?

Anyhow, I believe the cost ratio I described should be used in the formula. Thanks for getting my brain working Peter and in a direction you indicate!
 
Daniel A said:
For the exponent I used the fortress level minus 1. Is that not what your formula says?
Yes, you used the right exponent but you messed up your terms:
3* 2**0 / 6
+
2 * 2**1 / 6
+
1 * 3**2 / 6
Guess which number is wrong. :)
 
I see it, I see it! :D

(Ah shit, a sloppy error; an old habit of mine :( )

BTW, could you in simple words explain the difference between your (two) formulas and the one I am just now contemplating and which is

( number of minimal fortresses * 1
+ number of small fortresses * 2
+ number of medium fortresses * 3
+ number of large fortresses * 5
+ number of mighty fortresses * 10
+ number of maximal fortresses * 20)
/ number of city provinces

And then calculate the difference between the one player with the lowest average number and give 1 power point for each 0.1 higher average you have (i.e. just as before).
 
Daniel A said:
BTW, could you in simple words explain the difference between your (two) formulas and the one I am just now contemplating and which is
The only difference is the weights chosen (yours are considerably smaller than mine for the more expensive fortress types). Whether this is good or not depends entirely on what you want to represent:
  1. If you want to represent the value of assets in terms of "what does it cost to acquire this?" your steps in value are much to small (and mine are from L2 and onwards about half the size they should be)
  2. If you want to represent the value in terms of "how much is this really worth defensively?" your values are probably better than mine, but you should consider whether it really makes sense to take the average in that case.
  3. Something else.

The general issue with both 1) and 2) is that... Take a guy with Fortresses L1...LN and a total of T provinces. If his realm expands by say, 50 L1 provinces, his de facto situation in game defensively for war purposes would be way better than before but he'd get a much lower score; For actual game purposes strong players build strong fortresses where they are needed and minimum fortresses where irrelevant, defensive depth is good, and it is usually better to have a few big fortresses and many smaller ones to have all medium sized once your country grows beyond a few provinces, but your scoring system does not reflect this; The guy in your world who gets the most power for fortifications is the one who lives in a maximum fortress in a one-province minor. For those not living in such an idyllic nation playing to "win" using the power scale, the goal to aim for will be the same level fortifications all over the place, which just sounds a bit wrong as a goal.. That's why I suggested removed the division by number of provinces by taking an exponent between 0 and 1 instead, such that size also did matter, but again, it depends entirely on what you want to motivate players to do.
 
Peter Ebbesen said:
If you want to represent the value of assets in terms of "what does it cost to acquire this?" your steps in value are much to small (and mine are from L2 and onwards about half the size they should be)
Nah, as I wrote above
Daniel A said:
BTW, the cost ratio between fortresses are
Minimal = 1
Small = 2
Medium = 3
Large = 5
Mighty = 10
Maximum = 20
these numbers exactly portray what it costs to acquire them.

But as you write:
Peter Ebbesen said:
If you want to represent the value in terms of "how much is this really worth defensively?" your values are probably better than mine, but you should consider whether it really makes sense to take the average in that case.
this is probably what one should use, whatever these values may be. Simplest thing apears to be to go with the "cost"-values if Tonio is good enough to program it.
 
Daniel A said:
Nah, as I wrote above

these numbers exactly portray what it costs to acquire them.
They do? Too long since I played EU2 then, I must have forgotten the costs, if what you say is true. Are you really saying that getting a maximum fortress (L6), which total cost is L1+L2+L3+L4+L5+L6, only costs 20 times as much as buying L1, and the cost of going from no fortification to medium is only three times that of going from no fortification to minimum, i.e. according to your table, that
L1 is 100 (1)
L2 is 100 (2-1)
L3 is 100 (3-2)
L4 is 200 (5-3)
L5 is 500 (10-5)
L6 is 1000 (20-10)

I could have sworn that I remembered much higher prices with, doubling for each level of fortification leading to individual steps costing 400d, 800d, 1600d....

Were the prices really reduced to such dirt cheap values in 1.09?
 
I checked before I wrote my post. :D

Cost for minimal is 125 at 0% inflation and defensive 5. Then small is 250, medium 375 and larger 625 and so on. Actually the base price was 124 and small 249 etc, don't ask me why :confused:

What you remember is probably high offensive nations. If you are offensive 9 e.g. then the cost goes up with 40% per level.
 
If minimal cost 125 to build, small 250, and medium 375... then the cost of acquiring medium in a province that had none would be 375+250+125=750, which is not three times the cost of getting a minimum fortification in the province as your table claims, but six times the the cost of getting that minimum fortress and your numbers still don't add up right.

Anyhow, it is clear that my memory of fortress prices is from antiquity, but I still don't see how your factors are right for "total value of investment" unless (using your base of 125) L1 costs 125, L2 costs 125, L3 costs 125, L4 costs 250, L5 costs 625, and L6 costs 1250. :)

Ah well, next time we meet in MP (which will no doubt be EU3) I expect to know all the relevant details again. :D Until then, adieu. We appear to be talking past each other where the total value is concerned. :)
 
STREAMLINED INSTRUCTION FOR TONIO


COMMON THINGS


YEAR MODIFIER

Compute the number of years played in the game from start.
First find "Start year of campaign" which can be found on line 4 where it says “Startyear = X“ where X is the start year.
Then find "Current year of save" which can be found a bit further down where it says
"globaldata = {
startdate = { year = 1624 month = august day = 0 } "
Subtract start year of campaign from "current year of save" and thus get approximately the numbers of years played. Call that Y. Then set the year modifier to 1.007 ** Y (note: ** = exponential expression). Example: if Y = 3 then set year modifier to 1.007*1.007*1.007.

If this is too complicated then instead set year modifier according to this
< 1450 2
< 1475 1.5
< 1500 1
< 1525 0.8
< 1550 0.6
< 1575 0.5
< 1600 0.4
< 1625 0.35
< 1650 0.3
< 1675 0.28
< 1700 0.25
< 1725 0.23
< 1750 0.2
< 1775 0.19
< 1800 0.17
Later 0.15

Example: if a session ends say in 1499 then 1 is used as year multiplier, if it ends in 1776 0.19 is used as multiplier.

I will call this modifier YM when presenting the formulas.


VALUE MODIFIER

Set value modifier to 500. I will call this modifier VM when presenting the formulas.


INFLATION MODIFIER

Set inflation modifier to 1 + the value for inflation stored in the save. I will call this modifier IM.


DETAILED ANALYSIS OF OUR DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF POWER


PP = power point.


A) INCOME
Formula: PP = ((All income – income from peace and events) / IM) * YM /50
Note: use hardocoded value of 50 at the end.

B) CURRENT MP POOL
Formula: PP = Current MP pool * YM / 4000

C) ARMY AND NAVY MORALE
For each 0.05 higher land morale at 100% maintenance you get 1 PP.
For each 0.1 higher naval morale at 100% maintenance you get 1 PP:

D) TECHS
Formula: PP = (trade level * 6 + infra level * 6 + land tech level + naval tech level) * YM * 0.5

E) FLEET SIZE
PP = Min(20,
(Number of galleys * galley cost + Number of warships * war ship cost) /IM *YM /VM)

F) FORTRESSES
Set average fort level = ( number of minimal fortresses * 1
+ number of small fortresses * 3
+ number of medium fortresses * 6
+ number of large fortresses * 11
+ number of mighty fortresses * 21
+ number of maximal fortresses * 41)
/ number of city provinces
Formula: PP = (Your average fort level - the lowest average fort level) * 4.

G) ARMY SIZE
Same algorithm as for fleets. But now we have three types, infantry, cavalry and guns.

H) SHIPYARDS
Code:
If number of shipyards > 0 then do
  x = 900 + 100 * number of shipyards 
  y = 0
  do i = 1000 to x by 100
     y = y + i
  End
  PP = y / IM * YM / VM 
End
else PP = 0.

I) MANUS
Code:
If number of manus > 0 then do
  x = 400 + 200 * number of manus 
  y = 0
    do i = 600 to x by 200
       y = y + i
    End
  PP = y / IM * YM / VM
End
else PP = 0
J) CCs
Code:
If number of CCs > 0 then do
  x = 750 + 250 * number of CCs 
  y = 0
  do i = 1000 to x by 250
     y = y + i
  End
  PP = y / IM * YM / VM
End
else PP = 0.

K) TREASURY
Formula: PP = Treasury size / IM * YM / VM.

L) CoT:s OWNED
Formula: if number of COT:s owned > 0 then PP = number of COTs owned * 2 else PP = 0.
 
Last edited:
i hope to apply the changes this week.
If i fail, then 2 weeks will pass before i return from vacations
 
Daniel A said:
E) FLEET SIZE

Previously it was:
Formula:
Min(40,
(
( number of warships * (sum of your shock and fire value for war ships)
+ number of galleys * (sum of your shock and fire value for galleys)
)
/
sum of human tech leader's shock and fire values for war ships and galleys
/ 20
)

Now I propose:
((Number of galleys * cost for a galley for that nation) +
(Number of warships * cost for a war ship for that nation))
/IM *YM /VM
With a cap on 20.

I think cost of troops/navy is bad sign. Building 1000 warships with land=10 and aris=10 means 70 000 ducats. With land=0 and aris=0 it means 30 000 ducats. So you give more points to land nation, while naval is more effective. Though effectiveness is rated by morale.

Same with troops.

Daniel A said:
H) SHIPYARDS

Previously it was: Formula: number of shipyards / 2

Shipyards presents a new problem. The cost for a shipyard is not static. The first costs 1000d and for each new one you have to pay 100d more than for the previous one. Thus the value for the shipyards is not that easy to calculate. If Tonio can compute a correct sum for having for example 6 shipyards (which is 1000+1100+1200+1300+1400+1500=7500d) that would be swell. Else I suggest using an average value of 1200 since the number of shipyards at the end perhaps usually is around 5. So if you have 5 shipyards they add up to 6000d using the average method formula.

I propose: value of shipyards / IM * YM / VM

Example: year is 1819 and you have 10% inflation and you have 5 shipyards and we use the average value of 1200.
5*1200 / 1.1 * 0.15 / 500 = 1.63

Average shipyard cost is calculated.


Daniel A said:
I) MANUS

Previously it was quite complicated.
Formula: (number of refineries + number of weapon * 0.5 + sum of other manus * 0.33) * year multiplier
Each refinery gives 1 manu point.
Each weapon manufactory gives 0.5 manu poinst
Other kind of manu give 0.33 points.
The year multiplier was a special one used to really get the late game value of manus down to almost nothing.

I you want to use the cost of building the manus, like we did for shipyards, instead of these arbitrary values previously used then we face an even more complicated problem than for shipyards because the basic cost algorithm for manus has because of its complexity never been officially analysed and published. But if we allow us to be a little simplistic we can say that basically each new manu costs 200d more than the previous one. For simplicity we will also stop make a difference between different kind of manus. So here again: if Tonio can compute an exact value we will use that, else we will use an average value. Assuming the number of manus you have at the end will be around 15-20 the average cost will be around 2000d a piece.

Thus I propose:

Formula: Manu value / IM * YM / VM.
Example: Year is 1819, inflation at 10% and you have 16 manus. Average value of 2000d assumed.
16 * 2000 / 1.1. * 0.15 / 500 = 8.72

Average manu cost can`t be calculated since it is different if previous manus built or not + there is bonus to "manus at reduced price".
2000 is taken as value.


Daniel A said:
J) CCs

Previously it was: Formula: number of CC / 10

For CCs the initial cost is 1000d and then they increase with 250d per new CC. Again we have two alternatives: if Tonio can manage to compute the exact cost we use that, else we use an average value. Assuming you have around 15 CCs at the end the average cost will be around 2500.

Thus I propose:

Formula: CC value / IM * YM / VM.
Example: Year is 1819, inflation at 10% and you have 15 CCs. Average value of 2500d assumed.
15*2500 / 1.1 * 0.15 / 500 = 10.22

Average barracks cost is calculated


Daniel A said:
L) CoT:s OWNED

Previously this was not implemented. I thought it was aptly portrayed by the income for the owner and, in case of embargo, of income from the embargoed. However they represent a big potential value that can be used at any time, i.e. even if you do not presently embargo a nation you may do so at any time (providing you do not have a truce or TA) and thus it should be taken into the power formula after all.

Ideally you should use the value of the COTs to calculate the power, however that is not accessible in the save, so we have to resort to simply counting them.

I propose you get 2 power points for each COT owned.

Ok.
Though i calculate budget values of all CoTs, as shown in stats. Accuracy is about 15%.
 
New system launched according post #1 of this thread.
Everytime you visit certain year of the stats, Power Rating is updated automatically at this year. Averages recalculated then.
 
Tonioz said:
I think cost of troops/navy is bad sign. Building 1000 warships with land=10 and aris=10 means 70 000 ducats. With land=0 and aris=0 it means 30 000 ducats. So you give more points to land nation, while naval is more effective. Though effectiveness is rated by morale.

Same with troops.

Interesting point. I will think about that. I assume you used the formulas I suggested.

Tonioz said:
Average shipyard cost is calculated.

I assume this means you used the formula I sugested in post 30 of this thread.

Tonioz said:
Average manu cost can`t be calculated since it is different if previous manus built or not + there is bonus to "manus at reduced price".
2000 is taken as value.
I know Tonio, but I still thought what I suggested was the best. But ok, we use 2000d as value of each manu.

Tonioz said:
Average barracks cost is calculated
I assume this means you used the formula I sugested in post 30 of this thread.

Tonioz said:
Though i calculate budget values of all CoTs, as shown in stats. Accuracy is about 15%.
very interesting, then I could perhaps use that in some smart way. Simply a linear dependency between sum of ducats in your own COTs and the number of power points?
 
will check :)
I used post #1 of this thread.
Will check for #30
 
Why was the naval scoring changed? It was fine the way it was. Now for some reason navies seem a lot less important than land or the economy.
 
hmmm.. have u guys updated the popwerpoint system cuz we only get points for naval morale,land morale, CoTS and fortresses. :D