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unmerged(6817)

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Dec 13, 2001
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I have played turn-based strategy games for a long time and can win easily at the hardest difficulty levels in Master of Magic, Civ II, Imperialism and Imperialism II. I had heard good things about EU and decide to try it.

My first effort was a total failure. I fired up the tutorial and attempted the first mission. I went to my tent, clicked on the highlighted up arrows to build an army, and absolutely nothing happened. After much clicking, I gave up and quit. I tried to see if there was a patch that fixed the problem, but I had the latest version of the game. I set EU aside for a while and played other games.

I fired up EU again and started the tutorial. I discovered that you click the DOWN arrow to build an army. Bizarre interface choice. I played a lot of the tutorial and enjoyed it. I discovered another annoying interface issue - I would be monitoring the progress of an army's march on an unknown province. I would then right-click on another province to see how it was doing. Suddenly, my army is marching towards the province I was trying to check on. Eventually, I had run through all of my cash and after playing the "Find your neighbor" mission for a while, I decided it would take too long to find my neighbor. I was ready to start a scenario.

I decided to play a short scenario to really get my feet wet. However, I quickly discovered that the screens describing scenarios are woefully inadequate. I eventually picked what looked like the shortest scenario - The Great Northern War. I choose Denmark because the strategy hint seem to suggest that it is a position with a slow start. I planned on building up my economy for 10 years and then start thinking about war.

Firing up the scenario, my first frustration was just trying to figure what provinces I had where. I eventually found page 13 in the red book. I never knew the Danes had St. Thomas. I started with only 80 gold, and I spent 65 of it upgrading my baliff to a tax collector in Jylland. I was concerned about if I had enough defenses for my provinces, but I decided that I didn't have enough resources to worry about it. I also was running a deficit with no money in the bank. I reduce my research in order to generate some positive cash flow.

During my first year, I didn't move any military units. I was then playing the game as a turn-based strategy game with each month being a turn. What I did was turn the game speed on high, and then hit the pause key at the start of every month. With no money, all I could do was place merchants. I was placing my merchants in Russia, but eventually discovered that I could place them in England for less. I would make less money in England, but break even point was much shorter.

At some point, I got a diplomat. I tried to send him to England, but that apparently requires money, which I didn't have. So I let him lounge around the capital.

I played to January of 1 of the next year and then assessed my progress. During my first year, I got messages that I ignored. The first was that pirates appeared somewhere. Not knowing how that could effect me and not having much military resources, I ignored it. The second message was that England had changed religion and had declared war on me. In trying to assess my first year, I noticed that Sjaelland had locks on its numbers when I viewed the colony, and its tax revenue and trade revenue were half of what they were when I started the game. I guess that I am under some type of embargo from England. Also, promoting the baliff to tax collector in Jylland resulted in the tax income increasing from 19 to 21. That was money poorly spent. Time to restart.
 
Ok lets start, 1st off i wouldn't play one of the war scenarios, you are expected to get into a great big historical war which is not what you want right now. If i were you i would start a Grand campaign as a nice easy country that doesn't need to do too much early on. Try France, (big and you cant go wrong), Russia (always got the winter to protect you) or England (will teach you colonising and island protection.

On right click/left click. You left click to select an army, left click on a province to examine a province, in fact you left click on everything except to move something which is right click.

Tax collectors are a long term thing, they will pay for themselves but only after 50 odd years. In a 300 year game thats worth it, but a short scenario its not really.

Merchants will only start to make you real money once your Trade tech gets to a level that you can gain a monopoly, especially if this is in an overseas center of trade that very few other countries know about. The biggest COTs are worth 2000+ and you can be getting all of that.

Not all Diplomatic actions cost money, there is a tab at the top of that screen, go to the other opions and get a royal marridge with someone. Its free, it improves your relations, and it makes it harder for them to DoW on you.

The locks on the numbers are because England has a fleet off the coast, blockading you, and yes that does reduce your income.

The pop up messages can be customised so only the ones you want will pop up, click menu, options, and then down the bottom of that window, change message settings.

Hope this helps, i'm at work at the moment but will be of more help if you need it, always like to suck new people into the wonderful world of EU
 
Amusing. I actually started with Denmark in GNW my first game too. I thought I'd be able to do alright as I knew my history. As long as I don't let Charles XII come dancing across the water I'll be fine right? I have powerful allies in Russia and Poland richt? Sweden's only ally, Holstein is weak, and as logn as I don't make the historical mistake of sending my whole army there and counting oin the fleet to keep the Swedes away I'll be fine.

Needless to say none of this works. As anyone who has every played Russia, Poland or Dnemark knows, the Swedes tend to ignore threats in Finland and South of the Baltic, and they love to invade Norway. Holstien beat me up. My fleet sank Swedish ships left and right, but I couldn't hold on to Norway. And then Mecklenburg turned on me, and while Russia and Poland were having great success all their enemies were attcaking Denmark (kinda historical really). I got out of the war for Trondheim. ANd rebuilt. Went to war against Holstien and got cramed again. Fun game.

I'm not so sure all the war scenarios are bad for beginners. I know that Denmark in GNW is - they are very poor. My next game was Prussia in Spanish Succession. This is a lot easier as your enemies (France and Spain) have other people to attack, and you have soem vulnerable targets nearby and you have fantastic leaders and great tech. You'll lose the game because the French mission is 'make peace', and it's hard to see how they won't be able to do that. Still it was much easier than (say) England in the GC.
 
Originally posted by SideshowBob
The pop up messages can be customised so only the ones you want will pop up, click menu, options, and then down the bottom of that window, change message settings.
Or right-click on the message (on pop-up or in scroll list).
 
Denmark, take 2

In my next game, it started with pirates sighted in Coast of Gujarat. Oh my! I wonder where that is.

Due to what I consider poor design, you can't see what your incomes and your expenses until after one month, so I let January run by. I have tax income of 6.9, goods production of 2.2, trading income of 1.3 for a total income of 10.4. I have 6.1 of military maintenance and 2.1 for the four research areas, for a total expense of 14.4. Somehow, 10.4 - 14.4 gives 4.1, which the computer rounds up to 5. In February, my cash dropped from 80 to 75. When I go to page 13 in the red book, I see that my total taxation is 67 and my total production is 27. 67/12 is not 6.9. But hold on, Sjaelland is down to 13 instead of the 27 it was at the start of the game. At the start of the game, I had 81 taxation and 81/12 is close to 6.9. Apparently, Sjaelland's economic woes are due to a blockade by the Swedish fleet in the Sund. The bastards! What kind of fleet do I have? According to page 27 in the red book, I have a fleet with 8 warships and 4 transports in Sjaelland. When I hold the mouse over the Swedish fleet, I am told that it has 10 ships.

I decide to let the Swedes be and run another month. The fleet in the Sund splits in two and 2 ship head to the Skagerack. Sweden invades Ostlandet! I have a weak army that Sweden will eventaully defeat. What kind of a fortress do I have there? Clicking on the province, the fortress looks impressive, but no quantitative information on its size. Going to page 31 in the red book, the fortress there is medium size, whatever that means.

Spain acquired a monopoly in Andalusia. Whatever.

I have a merchant now. Where to send him? I would think that I can't establish a trading post, but have no idea how to find out. I go to page 14 in the red book to look at the COT's. I click twice on the Trade Value column to get the COT's sorted in Trade Value order. Kyushu is the top COT, and has a Placement Cost of 21, which doesn't seem unreasonable. Going to Kyushu, there appears to be only 14 merchants and the countries with one merchant are getting 50 gold a year. Going back to page 14, I click on placement cost. Anglia has the lowest placement cost with 3 gold. Single merchants are make 13 gold per year there. Looking at the 10 gold placement cost locations, Moscow has the second highest value and I already have a merchant there. Hold on! Austria and I both have one merchant in Moscow, and Austria is making 22 while I am making only 9. It's RTFM time. "When the trade income is distributed your country receives as large a share of the total trade value of the trade centers as the number of trade levels you hold divided by the total number of trade levels, and finally multiplied by by your country's trade technology level divided by ten." Great, I really suck at trade.
 
Dennis_D, because of your thread i have just started a GNW as Denmark, and played three years. Now I have EU1 & EU2 and have played a lot. As far as I can see this is not an easy way to learn. Denmark in this scenario is absolute rubbish, how could they have let their country get into this possition.

1. You have no armys, you can't even seige at the start because you army isn't big enough due to the fortress sizes.

2. Your fleet is punny, not a bad leader though in Christian Setiested

3. You have 34% inflation making troops so expensive to build

4. You start the game with no cannons

I took out two bank loans just to get me enough men to start seigeing Holsten.

If you really want to carry on with this, i might put you off EU for good, put your treasury slider to max out on money and spend everything on troops. You need to get at least one army upto about 25,000 with at least 50 canon just to start attacking. As i said i played 3 years and took out 2 bank loans and still felt that i was too weak. I hate the way that it's 1700 and i'm so weak, if i had played Denmark from 1492 i would have been in a far better possition than this.

I really really recommend you start a GC, then you have much more control over the direction your country goes in. From the things you are saying you want ot learn about diplomats and merchants etc etc, I don't think that a war where you start off so weak is the best way to learn these things.

If you get too disheartened drop me a PM and i would be happy to send you some e-mails helping you get through the early years in a GC, After a few years you will start to understand how your country works and will have much more personal control over the direction it takes.

Don't be put off by the time scale, some people here have never finished a GC, they get to a certain point and know they have won, start another.

In the meantime check this thread it gives stategies for the major nations in a GC

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13300
 
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Denmark, take 2 continued

Speaking of technologies, let me wander over to the budgeting window and check out my technology levels. Land - level 31 and will hit level 32 in May 1709. Naval - 32 and will hit 33 in July 1713. Trade - 3 and will hit 4 in Feb 1704. Infrastructure - 2 and will 3 in Sept 1709. For grins, I restart the game as Sweden to see where it is at when the game starts. Land 34, Naval 32, Trade 7, Infrastructure 7. Denmark is even on Naval, a little behind on Land, and massively behind in Trade and Infrastructure.

So, back to placing my merchant. Kyusha would be 755 X .05 X .3 or 11.3 per year and cost 21. Anglica would be 448 X .05 X .3 or 6.7 per year and cost 3. Moscow would be 547 X .05 X .3 or 8.2 per year and cost 10. Looking at how many months to break even, Kyusha is 22+ months, Anglica is 5+ months, and Moscow is 14+ months. Putting a merchant in Anglica looks to be the best deal.

Bizarre things are happening to the game. When I loaded the game March save file after I started a game as Sweden, the March game came up with me playing Sweden. I started a new GNW game as Denmark and now the March game comes up as Denmark. However, the default map is the trade map, and I can't get it to return to the normal default map. I can't check on the battle in Ostlandet. Sjaelland appears to be no longer blockaded. I can't see if the Swedish fleet is in the Sund.

Fixed the problem. Underneath the Political/Trade/Colonization buttons beneath the province are the map mode buttons. When I clicked on the left map mode, I went back to normal.

Well, I have got 69 gold in the treasury, and it is burning a hole in my pocket. Where to invest it? Perhaps a short loan to a friendly goverment. First of all, I am not sure a loan at 10% interest is a good deal when inflation is running at 30%. Secondly, when I finally got to the screen for making loans (click on the diplomacy button, make sure View Alliances is the setting, click on a country, and then Offer Loan is an option), I discovered that you apparently need a diplomat to make a loan.

Can I spend money to increase the trade level? If I pull all of the research into Trade, I will get to level 4 in August 1703 instead of Feb 1704. Not a huge improvement. I don't know if I can funnel additional money into an area of research.

So, for right now, it looks like I will be using my money to set up merchants in Anglica and to pay for troops.
 
Giving up on Denmark

After reading the replies here, it is clear that Denmark in the GNW is not a good learning situation. I don't understand why it was given an "Easy" rating in the scenario. I will look at playing a GC or playing Prussia in the Spanish Succession. I hestitate to play a GC as I still have no idea what I am doing. When I played the tutorial, I upgraded my baliffs in every province I could - clearly not a wise decision.
 
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ok merchants, each COT can hold 20 merchants, you will get the total COT value/20 multiplied by the number of merchants you have, multiplied again bt your trade level out of 10. ie if you have a trade level of 6 then you get 6/10ths of the value due to you. It isnt as exact as this because the techs dont quite go 0.1 0.2 0.3 etc etc, but sometimes go up in 0.05.

If you get 6 merchants in a COT you get a monopoly, then you also earn money for any empty slots in the COT. If you keep sending merchants after you have got to 6 then you can compete other countries merchants out of the COT. If not many people are using the COT you can clear it of all merchants except your monoply. Then you will be getting all of the COTs value multipled by your trade level.

As England i once got a COT in indonesia that was worth something like 2300, i had level 10 tech, and so all that was comming to me. Plus every refinery you have increases your trade level so you can actually earn more than the COT is worth.

As for spending your money in research, again i say to you all this would matter in a GC, but you are just fighting a war in a short scenario so you are pretty much stuck with what you get at the start. You might manage to make a small difference, when does this scenario end?
 
If you do happen to get a valuable remote CoT that a lot of the European countries don't know about, don't trade maps to them. I once was able to hold a 2200 CoT in Taiwan under monopoly for decades because only the Asian countries and Portugal knew where it was. Pulling all of that (and oher CoT's) as cash, I was making 300 coins a month in cash... as the Netherlands, with a total of 8 cities. (and 5 CoT's!)
 
Re: Giving up on Denmark

Originally posted by Dennis_D
After reading the replies here, it is clear that Denmark in the GNW is not a good learning situation. I don't understand it was given an "Easy" rating in the scenario. I will look at playing a GC or playing Prussia in the Spanish Succession. I hestitate to play a GC as I still have no idea what I am doing. When I played the tutorial, I upgraded my baliffs in every province I could - clearly not a wise decision.

I agree. I will have to go back to that scenario, but Denmark is awful in that scenario. I suspect it's a challenge for an experienced player, the Swedes are so tough. There is no way it should be listed as easy.

The GC is not that bad. My first long campaign I did as England in the 1617 scenario. This was actually not too tough-England is in a MUCH better situation in 1617 than 1492. I think the majority opion around here is that Russia in the GC is a good learning experience, and I pretty much agree. The troops are cheap so you can mess up, you have no coast so you can ignore naval matters and colonies for a while, and it's easy to be a warmonger. Being a warmonger will come back to haunt you, but that's how you learn.

On trade - with trade levels below about 4 it's hardly even worth the trouble. Your math pretty much shows that. In a GC get trade high as soon as possible (even with Russia though there you need land too). In a short scenario don't research it. If you're like Sweden and start at 7 send merchants like crazy. If you're like Denmark get 5 in your 'local' COT and forget about it. As a newbie it's one of the last things you need to work out.

My advice is learn how to conquer. I think I lucked out with Prussia in the Spanish Sucession, there may be better scenarios. Howver, Russia in the GC is good for learning how to fight wars.

And thanks for bringing back memories of Denmark and the GNW. And those relentless Swedes. I really have to play Denmark in the Enlightenment Campaign.
 
dk

well I started with denmark and and i think it is okay to start with.
but it is the most fun downloading the pach and play denmark in the grand campaing
 
Re: dk

Originally posted by HITO
well I started with denmark and and i think it is okay to start with.
but it is the most fun downloading the pach and play denmark in the grand campaing

Denmark in the 1700 start? It's a LOT harder than in 1492 or 1520.
 
If you can't beat them, join them

I have decided to try Sweden in the Age of Mercantilism scenario. It is a far different situation than Denmark in the GNW. I am not at war, I have lots of money (1500), my technologies are good (Land 13, Naval 19, Trade 5, Infra 5 and very little neighbor bonuses). I have +3 stability.

To win this scenario, I must have the most VP's at the end of 1680. The scenario starts in 1617, so the game will last 63 years. Unfortunately, I can't find in the manual anywhere how you earn VP's. Going to Stefan's FAQ, I do see anything on VP's. I guess I will learn as I go along.

Given the short time span of the scenario, one issue to decide is whether to bother to research anything. With the default settings, Trade and Infra are scheduled to level up in 1687, so they don't appear to be worthy of researching. With the default settings, Land is scheduled to level up Aug 1635 and Naval is scheduled to level up May 1625. If I divide all of the research points evenly between the two, the Land is scheduled to level up Feb 1633 and Naval is scheduled to level up May 1624. Going to Stefan's FAQ, level 13 land is in the Muskets range of technology that ranges from 12-19. Level 19 Naval is in the Latin Sail range of technology that ranges from 11-19. So, if I upgrade my Naval one level, I move on column up on the CRT table. I then follows Stefan's FAQ and open LAND.CSV to look at the military values. Unfortunately, I can't make heads or tails of it. When going from level 13 to level 14, vAF% increases from 10000 to 15000 and vAS% increases from 1500 to 2000, while vIS% and vCS% remain constant. I don't know what this means. Looking at NAVAL.CSV, level 20 brings about an increase in Warship Fire from 150 to 175 and Morale from 2.5 to 2.75. Level 21 brings about a reduction in Attrition from 0.5 to 0.4 and an increase in Wind from 2.5 to 3. At this point, I am not hurting for money so I am going to change my research to 50% Land and 50% Naval.
 
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On one of the early pages of your little red book about page 4/5 it lists a break down of your victory points. Unfortunatly the discriptions are very general.

You get them for most things you do, creating alliances, getting a Royal Marridge, winning battles, taking provinces, building certain economic structures, colonising, 1st to discover new areas, and finally if you want to doing missions. The problem with missions is that the AI doesn't do them so it's a bit of a cheat way to gain VPs.

They are listed under your shield, top right, best way to learn is just to watch the increase in response to certain actions. I really don't worry too much about them as i know that if i'm doing well they will be going up.
 
The naval morale increase is very big. Tech levels that boost morale are great. Still I'd go with land - winning land battles is what it's all about in the end.