• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
My utter indifference to HOI4 mechanics cannot be overstated.

I have been operating under the assumption that @Le Jones would be bending the game to suit the requirements of the story, as is the only correct and proper way to work. If this is not the case... well things do take on a considerably darker shade.

Yeah, hence my wondering throughout most of the plot so far. Is this the start of a really quite dark universe or the death knell of the empire before the war has even begun? Unless of course they resolve the problem as in OTL but it's looking like it might not go that way...
 
Dunno why, I don't know what to think about him...

He stands out in a pretty unappealing period in the history of the Labour Party as a man who was basically decent, and what’s more good at his job. A rare case of a principled Labour minister, probably helped by the fact that he pretty much never held office – except for the one time that he did, when he created the NHS.
 
Dunno why, I don't know what to think about him...

Competent, principled, and never quite made it to office, except when creating the NHS. Thus, a field day for alt-historians and in general, easy to mythologise about.

Of course, this is all just a piece of meat left out to trap El Pip but...
 
He stands out in a pretty unappealing period in the history of the Labour Party as a man who was basically decent,
Calling the entirety of the main opposition party "lower than vermin" is decent? I know standards in the Labour Party were low in the period, but that's a stretch surely. When even Morrison is saying it's a bit extreme you know you've gone too far.

I think the claim by Prof Laski and Labour HQ that Bevan's vermin speech (along with Shinwell being... well Shinwell) cost Labour 2 million votes in 1950 is maybe over-stating things and trying to pile a lot of blame onto internal enemies, but it was seen as nasty and unpleasant even at the time.

Competent, principled, and never quite made it to office, except when creating the NHS. Thus, a field day for alt-historians and in general, easy to mythologise about.

Of course, this is all just a piece of meat left out to trap El Pip but...
Indeed.

*Insert Fury Road 'Uh-uh That's Bait' Meme*

In a spirit of benevolence I have avoided taking the NHS bait, because such things never end well.
 
Calling the entirety of the main opposition party "lower than vermin" is decent? I know standards in the Labour Party were low in the period, but that's a stretch surely. When even Morrison is saying it's a bit extreme you know you've gone too far.

I think the claim by Prof Laski and Labour HQ that Bevan's vermin speech (along with Shinwell being... well Shinwell) cost Labour 2 million votes in 1950 is maybe over-stating things and trying to pile a lot of blame onto internal enemies, but it was seen as nasty and unpleasant even at the time.

If the worst thing you can fault someone for is the fact that they were once a bit mean to their bitterest political enemies, then I would suggest that this does not invalidate a general tendency towards decency. Perhaps the useful thing would be to agree to disagree on this score.
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
If the worst thing you can fault someone for is the fact that they were once a bit mean to their bitterest political enemies, then I would suggest that this does not invalidate a general tendency towards decency. Perhaps the useful thing would be to agree to disagree on this score.
There are many more things I can fault him for, I just went for the most famous one. But I doubt any of them would be more effective, so I will instead agree with the wisdom of your last sentence and leave it there.
DYAEiOu.gif
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
There are many more things I can fault him for, I just went for the most famous one. But I doubt any of them would be more effective, so I will instead agree with the wisdom of your last sentence and leave it there.
DYAEiOu.gif

No. No! Get into the pit I dug you two! The crowd demands blood!
 
1.png


Chapter 25, Admiralty, 5 June 1936

It was all so grand. He put on a new suit, ordered a new hat. Unlike the heatwave gripping the United States, London was having a rather dull, slightly cool late Spring and early Summer. Wednesday night (the third, two nights ago) had been particularly cool; he liked the cold and felt that his weather augured well. With a spring in his step, Sir Samuel Hoare MP strode energetically to his new Cabinet post.

1592925450701.png


Greeted by a young Lieutenant, who crisply saluted, he was escorted to the First Lord’s office, his office. There, he found a pensive looking Viscount Monsell, his predecessor, sitting at a side chair.

“Ah, Bolton,” Hoare said, not disguising his surprise. “Ah, what are you doing here? It isn’t normal for a new incumbent to be met by the man he is relieving.”

“This job is too important for a simple note or a briefing by the First Sea Lord,” Monsell said with a slightly wounded tone. “As I am retiring,” he said ‘retiring’ with a speculative air, “I thought that I would talk you through some of the issues on your desk.”

Hoare looked suspiciously at the former Naval officer. “Kind of you, Bolton. It was good of Stanley, or maybe it was Neville, to find a use for me. I thought I was getting India.”

“But Zetland…”

“As the Viceroy,” Hoare said petulantly. “I was promised it last year as an alternative to the Palazzo.” He said ‘Palazzo’, meaning the Foreign Office, with the air of an insider.

1592925499623.png


Monsell lamented his gesture in ‘staying put’ for the morning to help Hoare settle in. “And now you’re here,” he said and instantly regretted it. He wondered when they would stop talking, solely, about Hoare.

Hoare offered a thin, tight smile. “Halifax fought Stanley, you know. Wrote formally to him, the second that he scarpered for Chequers. He felt that I should still be in the wilderness after the Laval incident.”

There was a knock at the door and a small Captain entered. He looked back and forth, clearly not sure who was First Lord. Monsell offered a very vague nod of acknowledgement. “So, to your in-tray,” he said with some conviction. “This is Captain Tom Phillips Royal Navy, your Head of Plans. I suggest that you use him over the next few days,” Monsell said, almost giving it as an order. “In terms of work, there will firstly be a lot of talk about finally getting the new battleships ordered.”

“The fourteen inch ones?”

“Just so. The designs are now all agreed, we need to get the steel cut,” Phillips said in a slightly hammy attempt at ‘bluff and hearty’.

Hoare nodded. “I wonder how His Majesty intends to name them,” he said whimsically. “He suggested to me that he wanted to depart from the conventions, you know how he is,” Hoare said, more to Phillips than Monsell, and managing to convey the notion that he was vouchsafing something very secretive.

Monsell frowned. “The other issue is shared with your old office. As the Italians complete their conflict in Ethiopia, the Mediterranean basing issue has come back to us.”

Hoare made a great ceremony (or faff, depending upon your taste) of sitting at his desk. Monsell looked disgusted while Phillips, perhaps more of a politician than the politicians, offered a sycophantic smile. “Tell me, Captain,” Hoare said, ignoring Monsell.

“First Lord, as you are aware the Mediterranean Fleet is supported from Malta. It is the only first-class British base in the Mediterranean. But it is within sixty miles of Sicily, from which….”

“…the Italians can bomb us at will,” Hoare said testily. “I remember the report when I was Foreign Secretary.” He closed his eyes, recalling the text. “Something like ‘the whole force of Italy’s metropolitan air force could be operated from Sicily’,” he repeated.

Phillips was doing a good job of appearing emotionless; if he felt anger at Hoare’s snappiness or relief that he had a grasp of the issues he showed neither. “Our Commander-in-Chief, Admiral Sir William Fisher, is well aware of the fact that the island was virtually defenceless and vulnerable to air attack by Regia Aeronautica. Thus, he has asked that Malta be defended and that the Mediterranean Fleet receive reinforcements from the Home Fleet. We…”

“We?” Hoare smelled an intrigue; he enjoyed intrigues.

“Admiral Chatfield and I,” Phillips confirmed, “decided that the fleet should not remain at Malta. Admiral Fisher’s intention to use Malta as a base was overridden by this office and at the end of last year the Fleet had been gradually concentrated at Alexandria, while some units using Haifa and Port Said.”

Hoare nodded, remembering some of this from his last Cabinet attendances in 1935. “I understand, Captain. But if the Ethiopian War is done…”

“…we must consider the lessons from that conflict,” Phillips said with a touch of firmness. “Based on the assumption that in case of war with Italy, Malta would be of little value, we should look at alternatives.”

“And what are the alternatives?”

“We have concluded that the most suitable alternative harbour in the Mediterranean remains Alexandria. But, First Lord, we cannot consider this an appropriate substitute of Malta.”

“Really?” Hoare looked surprised. Monsell, wordlessly, nodded.

“Before the outbreak of the Abyssinian Crisis,” Phillips continued, “Malta was used both as a maintenance and repair station and as an operational base for the Royal Navy. Such a base was considered by Fisher to be a ‘crucial necessity’; without an operational base in the Mediterranean, strategically placed and adequately defended, Britain is not in a position to control the area.”

Hoare frowned but said nothing while Phillips continued. “Furthermore, the fleet cannot be maintained in the Mediterranean for any length of time in war unless there is also available a similarly defended docking and repairing base. Alexandria could serve successfully neither of these purposes.”

“Why?”

“Libya,” Monsell said quietly. Hoare frowned.

“Viscount Monsell is correct,” Phillips said, “Alexandria is considered too exposed to air attack from Libya. There is also the possibility that the negotiations with the Egyptians will not go well. But we also want to find an advanced base closer to Italy for the operations of the Royal Navy.”

Hoare immediately gripped the problem. “Are you saying that you need two bases?”

“Yes Sir,” Phillips said earnestly. “We propose that it is now necessary to separate the two bases, namely, maintenance and operational, as a matter of priority.”

“What are the choices?” Hoare looked suspicious. He disliked risky proposals.

“The only satisfactory operational base in the Central Mediterranean is Navarino Bay in the Western Peloponnese. For security, we call it ‘Port X’. It is two hundred and fifty miles from Italy proper and the same distance from Italian Libya and the Italian base of Leros in the Dodecanese. It is, therefore, less exposed than Malta. Our war plans suggest that we should seize Navarino Bay, even without Greece’s consent.”

Hoare rolled his eyes. Monsell sat, stone still. “Are you serious?” Hoare was incredulous.

“Yes, First Lord.”

“I am,” the slightly hysterical side to Hoare was back, “supposed to go to Eden, who replaced me as Foreign Secretary, and tell him that my new department’s war plans call for an invasion of Greece?”

“It is a recommendation, First Lord,” Phillips reasserted.

Hoare shook his head. “Go on, Captain,” Hoare said with a dismissive wave. Phillips looked to Monsell, who offered a reassuring nod.

“Navarino could only be used as an operational and not as a maintenance and repair base. My staff is clear that a maintenance and repair base should be immune from heavy air attack. It would have a large number of docks, buildings and other fixed shore facilities which are ripe targets for air attack.”

Hoare had recovered his temper. “Logical. What are the options?”

Phillips continued his circumlocution. “The range of bombing aircraft has increased considerably, First Lord, and we should never site a maintenance and repair base within five hundred of enemy home territory.”

“That rules out Malta,” Hoare said heavily.

“Indeed, Sir. Malta and Alexandria are ruled out because of their proximity to France and Italian-held territory. They are the only maritime powers likely to be serious opponents in the Mediterranean. There are only two possessions in which a British naval base could be developed, Gibraltar and Famagusta in Cyprus.”

Hoare frowned. “Cyprus?”

“A base in Cyprus would be satisfactory against France, and bases at either Gibraltar or Cyprus satisfactory against Italy,” Phillips said crisply. “We feel that between Cyprus and Gibraltar, Cyprus would be the most appropriate location for a maintenance base because of the land threat to Gibraltar from Spain”.

“Is Spain also an enemy, like Greece?” Hoare was being tart, sarcastic.

“Gibraltar could prove untenable in the case that Spain was hostile or if it allied itself with either Italy or France. If Malta should be abandoned…”

“I think that I understand”, Hoare said quickly. “You have two alternatives if we lose Malta…”

“Or if we need to withdraw,” Phillips corrected.

“Yes, yes. Your choices are: develop the existing facilities at Gibraltar or establish a naval base in Cyprus capable of dealing with your larger ships.”

“There is the Mobile Naval Base Defence Organisation,” Monsell added, “designed to enable us to seize and defend a base when needed.”

“But,” Hoare frowned, “that is surely for the operational stuff, not the maintenance base?”

“Precisely, First Lord,” Phillips was glad to be able to agree.

“So unless it is greatly augmented, it cannot aid this choice,” Hoare said, now in command. “Thank you, Captain. So that’s battleships and the Mediterranean, what about Germany?”

Phillips nodded. “My predecessor, working with DNI…”

“DNI?”

“Director of Naval Intelligence, First Lord.”

“Then say so,” Hoare snapped.

“Apologies, Sir. We have always worked on three assumptions with the general direction of Germany’s naval plans. One, that Germany would work in the naval treaty system and thus build a balanced fleet. Two, that Hitler's priorities would be the army and air force. Three, that Raeder's immediate aim is to secure the Baltic from Russia and to protect German merchant shipping from French interdiction.”

Hoare nodded. “Fine, fine. So?”

“Assuming that Germany works within those assumptions, we remain convinced that at sea, Britain and its allies would inevitably win a long war of endurance.”

“Ah, the old British strengths of our geography, and our maritime power. What is the DNI’s assessment of the German fleet?”

1592925931514.png


“So we can cope, against them,” Hoare said finally.

Phillips nodded. “Precisely. Germany knows this, too, and that’s why we wonder if they will ever want to concentrate all on an offensive knockout blow. We must accept that the German battlefleet is not going to sail into the North Sea in line formation and offer itself up for annihilation.”

“That sounds like Jutland,” Hoare immediately grasped.

“Indeed. Instead, First Lord, the task of the German navy in wartime will be to engage sea forces weaker than her own, but principally to damage enemy trade and to protect her own merchant shipping. I conclude that the security of the Baltic would be the most likely task of surface units, including the Panzerschiffe.”

“Pa what?”

“Panzerschiffe, First Lord. Pocket battleships. Ten thousand tonnes or so, eleven inch guns. They will use some heavy ships on tip and run raids against sea links with British forces on the continent, but only disguised armed merchant cruisers will be used to dislocate British commerce. They will use their U-boats, perhaps with the unknown potentiality of an unrestricted air attack, on east coast shipping and the Port of London.”

“Air attack?” Hoare looked sharply at both Monsell and Phillips.

“Just so, First Lord.”

“Well, that’s a matter for Inskip. Give it to his committee, if we’re going to need the RAF to defend against this knockout blow of yours, then Inskip should finally have a coordination task to get on with.”

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

GAME NOTES

Sir Samuel Hoare takes over, as he did historically, at the Admiralty. Monsell, who I like (I think that his intent was honest) is retired while the older Hoare takes over. I have no firm evidence, beyond a couple of unreliable remarks at the time, that Monsell’s retiring, was anything other than genuine. But I have a hunch that Hoare, seen as a rising star and potential future leader (after Chamberlain, of course – he had virtually been promised the premiership after Baldwin) was shoved in by a Baldwin quietly arranging matters for his departure.

Looking back, I was actually quite soft on Hoare, familiar to HOI2/3 players as Lord Templeman (Paradox make him a peer far too early), in the other AAR. There, I made him a sort of deputy PM to Halifax; boy, did I get that wrong! It now turns out that Halifax was deeply, deeply, mistrustful of the other man’s conduct around Hoare-Laval (the infamous proposed Franco-British deal to end the Ethiopian War by handing much of that country over to Italy) and worried that he was rehabilitated by Baldwin prematurely. I suspect that Halifax, a plodding Victorian, didn’t like “Slippery Sam” (he had a penchant for ice skating and the nickname was just too good) for his scheming, very ambitious character. He is a difficult man to like; CJ Sansom, in his masterful novel ‘Winter in Madrid’, portrays Hoare as pretty petty, risk averse administrator, obsessed with not being offered the viceroyalty again (he was, as I described, offered it in 1935 but turned it down to focus on domestic politics). Much of this is probably accurate, although I think that he was more intelligent than he comes across in that novel, and, his slightly ‘jumpy’ character aside, I have made him get to grips with Phillips’ issues pretty quickly. He reminds me of Chamberlain actually (and it’s fitting that he follows a Chamberlain-centred update), in that he is clever, hardworking, but utterly self-absorbed and unjustifiably arrogant. I think that Hoare beats Chamberlain at charm, the diarists show that he was in demand as a dinner guest (in a way that Halifax and Chamberlain were not) and he was very popular with Wallis and Edward (as we saw in an earlier update).

The three issues, of course, are what we would call the KG5s (all but committed to by this stage, despite Parliamentary panic that we also covered recently), the basing requirements of the RN in the Med, and the British understanding of the Kriegsmarine’s capability and plans.

I have leaned, heavily, on real British reports; the text of Phillips’ explanation of the Med basing conundrum is based on reports prepared for the First Sea Lord, Admiral Chatfield. The British analysis strikes me as sound for 1936; the risk to Malta is obvious and the options for the maintenance base are, therefore, to develop existing facilities (and really, we mean Gibraltar if Alexandria is unacceptable, more on that later), or develop a new base. Cyprus really was a leading contender for the Plans Division of the Admiralty, although the issue of its geography – it’s the wrong direction from home and the study has so far ignored the steaming time around the Cape of Good Hope and through Suez, would dog it for some time. In the end, a compromise from Hoare plumped for Malta as an operational base and Alexandria for the much desired maintenance facility – this will be covered later, but it highlights the classic British position. The Empire held swathes of territory, but by the 30s much of it was just not quite in the right place for effective defence. This is also something that the Admiralty cannot consider in isolation and much of the ‘stake’ in these decisions is owned by the Foreign and Colonial Offices – in the end it was Eden who made the final announcement to the Commons.

The text about the knockout blow analysis comes straight from the words of Phillips’ immediate predecessor as Director Plans, Captain Edward King. It is a fascinating debate and one that raged around the Admiralty in the early-mid thirties – just how would Germany grow her Fleet, and how, having obtained these new toys (but not enough of them to overwhelm Britain) would she use them? There are bits of prescience and madness in equal measure and clear contradictions; if the U-boats are protecting the Baltic, how could they take part in a knockout blow against British shipping? Chatfield, King, Phillips and Dickens (the ‘DNI’ mentioned in the explanation) all argued tirelessly on these issues. You will also note that at this stage, the Admiralty did not understand how the panzerschiffe would be used; they believed that they would protect Germany’s flanks rather than the dispersed Atlantic strategy that actually developed. Again, though, there is some accurate predicting; the Admiralty was very alive to the armed merchantman threat, even in 1936. Given the concern over a huge Luftwaffe attack upon convoys and ports, Hoare is right to try and get a joint perspective on this, although I have hinted that this is done for political expediency as much as strategic sense.

Captain Phillips is a role played by Tom Hanks in the 2013 film of the same name of course more commonly remembered as Vice Admiral Tom Phillips, commander of the ill-fated ‘Force Z’ that was overwhelmed by Japanese aircraft so early in the Pacific War costing the RN HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse and hundreds of sailors (including Phillips) their lives. It is for this reason that the update didn’t mention the Far East; we will look at it, but I wanted to avoid the cliché of Tom Phillips being the one to talk up/down the Japanese – whatever I typed, it would seem trite.

I have two “by the way” points for today. The first is that I have reached, in the game, the, well, end of ‘a’ war. I cannot yet tell whether or not it will be the war. But the outcomes were certainly odd. You can thank my GP wife for having a well-earned day off and taking the kids for a (COVID regs compliant) walk on Saturday.

The other one is that I urge you to vote in the ACAs – and I have wrangled with the decision to request this. It doesn’t have to be for this AAR, I’d actually commend all of yours, but a lot of work has gone into it and I’d quite like it to be a success. I have been tipped into commenting as I was incensed by comment #4 of the thread. Posting it was needless and actually very ungentlemanly. The one thing that makes being an advocate bearable is that there are rules of conduct; it maintains the ability to go home at the end of the day not feeling like a louse, it keeps us, clients, victims and the innocent safe and the system moderately fair. Why the parallel? It seems to me that while chiding and witty badinage is welcomed (see your fine words above and below), damming almost an entire community, the poster’s edit notwithstanding, is off. I would like to state that I find these AARs a veritable ‘abundance of riches’ and wish that I had read more of them. So I am going to, starting now.

@DensleyBlair: He was an odd man, crushing vanity, sly intellect, shyness in public, bitchy in letters, and yet a hardworking public servant. He is in an odd position though – with dear Anthony dealing with the Turks, French and Egyptians he is the leading Conservative with Baldwin out to pasture.

@TheButterflyComposer: The contrast with Churchill is fascinating and I believe that both did take it too far. Chamberlain (perhaps because Austen was half-American? Christ knows) was just too overt in his dismissiveness, while Churchill went too far.

@Kurt_Steiner: Now now! :)

@Specialist290: I do like Fisher, I’d hate to work for or with him, but writing about him is certainly fun!

@DensleyBlair: But to Bevan, Chamberlain is almost the archetype of evil; I love the comment, but to me both have their strengths (even, as I hope that I have demonstrated, Chamberlain!) and weaknesses.

@TheButterflyComposer: :)

@Bullfilter: I’m not sure how it works overseas, but in the UK civil, legal and military services (and probably the diplomatic, but I’m out of touch) “gardening leave” is a polite term for someone senior being sent home for (delete as appropriate) illness, mad compassionate issues, incompetence, or where there is a serious allegation (usually of gross misconduct and / or incompetence) and they need to be kept away until an investigation / whitewash has done its duty and / or the problem has gone away.

@stnylan: That really is a fascinating take on Eden and Chamberlain, and I’m not sure that I agree. Eden, to me, is too ‘modern’ (there is a lot of Eden in the way that Blair and Cameron conducted themselves) while Chamberlain should have really served in a Salisbury or (party differences aside) Asquith cabinet. There is much in common, but to me they are very very different.

@El Pip: More on the way, Baldwin is down but not out…

@TheButterflyComposer and @El Pip: I’m trying to carve a middle path, respecting the game as much as possible while ignoring / tweaking its greater madnesses. Where I deviate, I will explain as much as I can…

@Kurt_Steiner and @DensleyBlair and @TheButterflyComposer: My view tallies pretty squarely with @DensleyBlair's actually; he will play a role later on in the tale and I find myself quite liking him.

@El Pip: Yes, true, but Churchill did foretell that the Labour MPs with whom he had fought the war would deploy a form of Gestapo. To avoid enraging you any further, I post the speech and Attlee’s response:

Winston Churchill, 4th June 1945, this is the relevant paragraph from his speech:

“No Socialist Government conducting the entire life and industry of the country could afford to allow free, sharp, or violently-worded expressions of public discontent. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance. And this would nip opinion in the bud; it would stop criticism as it reared its head, and it would gather all the power to the supreme party and the party leaders, rising like stately pinnacles above their vast bureaucracies of Civil servants, no longer servants and no longer civil.”

Clement Attlee’s response (5th June 1945)

“The Prime Minister made much play last night with the rights of the individual and the dangers of people being ordered about by officials. I entirely agree that people should have the greatest freedom compatible with the freedom of others. There was a time when employers were free to work little children for sixteen hours a day. I remember when employers were free to employ sweated women workers on finishing trousers at a penny halfpenny a pair. There was a time when people were free to neglect sanitation so that thousands died of preventable diseases. For years every attempt to remedy these crying evils was blocked by the same plea of freedom for the individual. It was in fact freedom for the rich and slavery for the poor. Make no mistake, it has only been through the power of the State, given to it by Parliament, that the general public has been protected against the greed of ruthless profit-makers and property owners. The Conservative Party remains as always a class Party. In twenty-three years in the House of Commons, I cannot recall more than half a dozen from the ranks of the wage earners. It represents today, as in the past, the forces of property and privilege. The Labour Party is, in fact, the one Party which most nearly reflects in its representation and composition all the main streams which flow into the great river of our national life.”

Remarkable stuff from both. My point is that both sides in 40s and 50s Parliamentary dealing were unpleasant in their conduct.

@DensleyBlair and @El Pip This AAR is going to be a bloody battleground as the crisis develops, if we're arguing at this stage!

@TheButterflyComposer: NO! Please, no! Family show, @TheButterflyComposer, family show…
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
Reactions:
I have been tipped into commenting as I was incensed by comment #4 of the thread.

I think I know to what you are referring, and I was left with a sour taste reading that remark also. Particularly as I have recently been using a good deal of my free time to get back into ‘discovering’ new AARs, and – as is always the case – there is a surfeit of talent on display!

he will play a role later on in the tale and I find myself quite liking him.

Fantastic!

This AAR is going to be a bloody battleground as the crisis develops, if we're arguing at this stage!

A daunting prospect, but I will not shirk if duty calls. :p

And so we meet Slippery Sam, in any case. As you say, it seems he is yet another minister afflicted by an inflated sense of self-importance, yet his grasp on affairs seems sharp enough. (Not that I speak from a position of expertise myself.) I do wonder whether he will make it to the premiership in this world. I may be judging things a tad too hastily, but Nev certainly has the sense of being a “man in a hurry”. I wouldn’t be all too surprised if he were in and out of Number 10 with some haste.

Assuming, of course, he makes it in at all. Everything is up for grabs!
 
Good God, Hoare is like a walking example of what we Americans think about when we call someone "painfully British," that perfect combination of arrogant, self-absorbed, and short-tempered that signals "upper-class twit." He does come off as somewhat ill-informed here as well, but that at least I can write off as this being his first day on the job; towards the tail end there, he did seem to be catching on fairly quickly once he had all the pieces in place.

The discussion of naval basing I found rather fascinating. The increasing precariousness of Malta would, of course, become quite relevant in the actual war OTL, for precisely the reasons given. Italy traditionally gets written off as the "fifth wheel" of the Axis, but they certainly weren't toothless, and had the Regia Marina's leadership been a touch more competent and aggressive, I do feel that they could have made life very miserable indeed for the Royal Navy and the army in Egypt.
 
Greeted by a young Lieutenant, who crisply saluted, he was escorted to the First Lord’s office, his office.

Uh oh. I smell seamen (he heh).

“As the Viceroy,” Hoare said petulantly. “I was promised it last year as an alternative to the Palazzo.” He said ‘Palazzo’, meaning the Foreign Office, with the air of an insider.

Jesus Christmas. His hat must be huge to encircle such a head

Hoare nodded. “I wonder how His Majesty intends to name them,” he said whimsically. “He suggested to me that he wanted to depart from the conventions, you know how he is,”

...oh dear. HMS Cromwell, as launched by Wallis Simpson.

“…the Italians can bomb us at will,” Hoare said testily. “I remember the report when I was Foreign Secretary.” He closed his eyes, recalling the text. “Something like ‘the whole force of Italy’s metropolitan air force could be operated from Sicily’,” he repeated.

this calls for an Oh Bother.

Libya,” Monsell said quietly. Hoare frowned.

double oh bother.
Our war plans suggest that we should seize Navarino Bay, even without Greece’s consent.”

of course! It worked so well last time...

Indeed, Sir. Malta and Alexandria are ruled out because of their proximity to France and Italian-held territory

The navy is so dismissive of France that they think they'll be fighting a war with the country occupied or actively fighting them? Lovely.

I had no idea the situation in the Med was so dire that the admiralty were worried they'd have no bases at all save for the absolute safest rocks either side of it. Especially discounting alexandria is sure to annoy the army and the foreign office, because it makes clear very publically that the navy doesn't trust the army or government to defend Egypt from italy.

He reminds me of Chamberlain actually (and it’s fitting that he follows a Chamberlain-centred update), in that he is clever, hardworking, but utterly self-absorbed and unjustifiably arrogant.

I got that from the chapter. Immediate dislike followed by good enough questioning and policy making for what he was given.

I have two “by the way” points for today. The first is that I have reached, in the game, the, well, end of ‘a’ war. I cannot yet tell whether or not it will be the war. But the outcomes were certainly odd.

hmm...did the germans stalemate themselves in France or did russia attack them early, rendering the whole thing pointless?

have been tipped into commenting as I was incensed by comment #4 of the thread.

oo drama. Its probably cleaned up now but I could probably do with avoiding it anyway...

I’m not sure how it works overseas, but in the UK civil, legal and military services (and probably the diplomatic, but I’m out of touch) “gardening leave” is a polite term for someone senior being sent home for (delete as appropriate) illness, mad compassionate issues, incompetence, or where there is a serious allegation (usually of gross misconduct and / or incompetence) and they need to be kept away until an investigation / whitewash has done its duty and / or the problem has gone away.

Yes minister uses the term so everyone here should know it. Basically the equivalent of Lenny sending Homer home to think about what he did.
 
Hoare is, as written, a somewhat unlikeable chap - and given his disasterous intervention as Foreign Secretary one can hardly imagine a worse office for him than the Admiralty. For the Navy is the steel fist inside the Foreign Secretary's glove - and this First Lord has already proved himself unworthy.

I suppose I should allow him a chance at redemption, but on this showing he does seem a little ... nitpicky.
 
Interesting discussion on Mediterranean strategy, maybe using Malta less for the Navy would save them from some of the axis' historical bombardment?

Maybe I am just pessimistic but the discussion on the Spanish threat to Gibraltar sounded an awful lot like foreshadowing.

And of course some good discussion on good old Bevan, Christ said he would heal the sick and help the poor but Bevan actually delivered.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
On Hoare: his characterisation strikes me as a large ego and self regard backed up by a considerable dose of suppressed insecurity. Hence the testy braggadocio etc. And, whether it was already underlying or not, his episode as Foreign Secretary would surely have dented the self-belief of even the most ‘justifiably’ arrogant man. I hasten to add I know of and have read virtually nothing I can recall of Hoare: I’m purely going off his appearance in this AAR: it’s an in-universe analysis. :)
“The only satisfactory operational base in the Central Mediterranean is Navarino Bay in the Western Peloponnese. For security, we call it ‘Port X’. It is two hundred and fifty miles from Italy proper and the same distance from Italian Libya and the Italian base of Leros in the Dodecanese. It is, therefore, less exposed than Malta. Our war plans suggest that we should seize Navarino Bay, even without Greece’s consent.”
I’m curious about this proposal, which wasn’t delved into in the game notes. Was it an OTL thing? I’ve never heard of it, but haven’t made any study of the subject/period (ie RN Intel or basing assessments in the Med from the mid-30s). Or is it an in-game POD idea?
I’m not sure how it works overseas, but in the UK civil, legal and military services (and probably the diplomatic, but I’m out of touch) “gardening leave” is a polite term for someone senior being sent home for (delete as appropriate) illness, mad compassionate issues, incompetence, or where there is a serious allegation (usually of gross misconduct and / or incompetence) and they need to be kept away until an investigation / whitewash has done its duty and / or the problem has gone away.
Haha, I doubt it has any usage outside the UK! I take it purely from Yes Minister/Prime Minister, where it seems to be viewed as the equivalent to a civil servant of being sent to the Tower of London in the era of Henry VIII or Elizabeth I! While one is occasionally released, it’s most likely you‘ll get the chop! :D

On “that comment”: I too thought it jarring (this Forum, the AAR parts of it anyway, I don’t look at general chat boards) is usually a lot more temperate, supportive and thoughtful than that. I suspect it was more thoughtlessness than malice and deserving of a slight shake of the head and rising above, which everyone seems to be doing, thankfully. :)
 
Last edited:
Haha, I doubt it has any usage outside the UK! I take it purely from Yes Minister/Prime Minister, where it seems to be viewed as the equivalent to a civil servant of being sent to the Tower of London in the era of Henry VIII or Elizabeth I! While one is occasionally released, it’s most likely you‘ll get the chop! :D

The ultimately penalty for these types, to be sent home to wait for nanny's telling off. Pricking their bubble and sending them crashing down to earth as it were, and telling everyone about it too. It would probably be mortifying, especially if it was for something you had actually done wrong.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
Once can forgive the British for not knowing about the wartime role of the Panzerships at this point, mainly because the Germans didn't know either. Baltic security and Channel raiding was their job at this point, they were not designed for operating in the North Atlantic and tended to get badly damaged if they did go out in even slightly choppy weather. In fairness this was a weakness of British Naval Intelligence - they would look at a design, conclude it would be bad at certain things due to inherent design choices and then assumed the enemy would not use it for thing it was bad at. Essentially they regularly over-estimated the competence of the German navy, but the Kriegsmarine (surface fleet anyway) was not the Kaiser's navy anymore.

On which note, the Knock Out Blow strategy! A triumph of "Well it's what we do, so we must assume they would do it." thinking from the Admiralty. It assumes a degree of inter-service co-operation and co-ordination that Nazi Germany was fundamentally unable to ever achieve, and I think that must be the Kriegsmarine fault (the Germany army and Luftwaffe were able to work together for devastating effect). I suppose one has to assume you are facing a competent enemy, but it was a bit of an over-reaction.

Looking at the naval bases plan I always find the contrast between the talk and the action intriguing. While there were plans to build a large dry dock at Alexandria from mid 30s onwarrds, they never even got started as no-one really believed it was a priority, while for all the talk of abandoning Malta the massive floating drydock there never got moved. Indeed after war broke out the Admiralty moved a UK based floating dock out to Alexandria rather than relocate the one at Malta. That was probably a mistake, but it does reinforce my belief that some of the debate about where to base was make-work for Plans Division, or at least it was a "debate" where much of the Admiralty had decided it was worth hanging onto Malta regardless.
 
@Le Jones have just finished reading through and I must say this is an excellent aar. I do sometimes miss things ask grasp on the players is not as good as your own. But your notes always bring understanding.

I will be following but I just wanted you to know how much I appreciate your efforts.
 
A historian has got a new book out about the Abdication Crisis and chunks of it are turning up in various newspaper articles. A couple of them may be of some interest as a bit of background to the historic crisis and how various people viewed the story at the time;

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...vered-up-plot-to-assassinate-king-edward-viii - The headline is a bit misleading, but the attempted assassination of Edward VIII does appear to be at least a bit murky (Italian double agents and how much MI5 knew) and the past of George McMahon looks fun - amusingly he is classified as 'Failed Assassin' by wiki to distinguish him from the other George McMahons.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-f...ry-loveaffair-almost-tore-apart-royal-family/ - The Telegraph one is hidden behind their paywall, but if you can sneak through it has some wonderfully catty quotes from the various civil servants who accompanied Eddie on his summer holiday cruise around the Med in the Summer of 36. A few lines from Duff and Diana Cooper about how mismatched Eddie and Wallace were and what a fool Eddie was making of himself in the face of Wallace's obvious (to them) disinterst in him also caught my eye. I do wonder how much it was a love match vs two stubborn people unwilling to admit they were wrong and everyone else was right.