Zebedee said:
Yep and combined with the diplomacy AI that would make the best game ever
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Yep and combined with the diplomacy AI that would make the best game ever
Played a couple of years and no crashes (some odd flickering but that could be anything..). Very enjoyable though - super work
Riverlands got eaten by a Lannister/Tyrell alliance. Renly and Stannis don't seem to be able to do much at all. I managed to wipe out the North's cavalry in an ill-advised charge
Will post some ideas up after I've added some chrome to my personal version and done some more play-testing.
Riverlands got eaten by a Lannister/Tyrell alliance. Renly and Stannis don't seem to be able to do much at all. I managed to wipe out the North's cavalry in an ill-advised charge
Will post some ideas up after I've added some chrome to my personal version and done some more play-testing.
This looks very, very good. I've got to admit, my first thought on seeing that you were doing an HOI2 conversion was "you fool, how on earth is that going to work? Blatantly CK is the only way to go for ASOIAF!" but having seen your screenshots, I'm already hooked and downloading as I type.
Even if the North 'feels' big, it does appear far too small. Whilst obviously the detail is needed for the south, where most of the fighting happens (and where most of Martin's description has been so far), the fact that the North is endless miles of mostly empty wasteland should nonetheless be recreated.
Speaking specifically of the map, I'm only going by that screenshot that you've posted, but I'm confused about the exact layout of the meeting of the North and South. The Twins in this look to be a particularly useless point where in reality they were a major barrier to crossing the Green Fork and a good place for the Freys to project power from. They could easily cut off the Cape of Eagles to the West and the Kingsroad to the East and with three provinces (in-game) create a barrier between north and south. I think there's a bit too much room to maneouvre around ol' Walder Frey in your map as-is.
And, of course, I fully expect to see him, Roose Bolton and whoever the Karstark heir is given the option to declare their independence from Riverrun / The North and forge an immediate alliance with the Lannisters and each other, with the Freys getting territorial claims over all the former Riverlands and the Boltons getting territorial claims over the North. All, of course, tied in with the Red Wedding event set.
I'm also having a few headaches with working out exactly why the islands are where they are. Obviously, the shoreline makes a big difference, but the Iron Islands are completely in the middle of nowhere! And what on earth is the second Tyrell island? One is obviously the Arbor...guess I'll have to wait for the download. They are a bit far away, though...and given that every other island is represented, where are the Three Sisters? Agh! I'm confused.
The Wall seems somehow...erm...skewed to one side as well. Is it only in one province? I would have thought that the wall would be (at least...) three provinces long for the Shadow Tower, Castle Black and Eastwatch by the Sea. Then there's Brandon's Gift and the New Gift...the Night's Watch just looks remarkably tiny. Surely they should feel like they have something five times the length of the Maginot line to defend, but only a fraction of the force needed to actually defend it?
Plus, if the Gift is made bigger, you can have a few nasty "Re-occupation of the Rhineland" style "Re-occupation of the Gift" events. If the NW move armies into the Gift, their belligerence should increase and relations should become highly strained with the North, and slightly so for the other kingdoms. They are, after all, not supposed to take any part in the squabbles of the kingdoms, so their armies should stay on their frozen wall and move nowhere else. Whether the AI would understand, I'm not sure...but worth a try.
Not sure what events you have or haven't got, and this download is taking ages, so I'll just keep running off at the mouth and feel free to ignore any suggestions you've already thought of...
Obviously, the Wildlings will at some stage attack the Wall, most likely triggered by the event set "The Search for the Horn of Winter". Naturally, during their march south Jon Snow will take a brief vacation from his position in the Night's Watch to appear in the Wildling 'government'. No Craster? Is he considered to be a part of the wildlings? I would have thought he would be independent but allied to the Night's Watch and have a non-aggression pact with the Wildlings (and, perhaps, the Others? Given his baby-killing...). He presumably has no IC, and neither a standing army or the obvious means to create one. The Wall has its independence guaranteed by all of the major houses, I would imagine.
The massacre at Craster's Keep must already be in place to trigger Jeor Mormont's death and, ultimately, Jon Snow's succession...presumably whoever acts as Head of Government would temporarily become Head of State as well, until Jon Snow arrives back again and is elected (although, muahahaha, I assume there is a choice to have Slynt elected and shortly have an event offering to turn the Wall into a Lannister puppet?)
Stannis, I presume, has a Davos event triggered for "The King must protect his realm" when the Wildlings DoW the Wall. I'm not sure exactly how you could style the events of Mance Rayder's defeat (or, of course, his ahistorical victory) but obviously his forthcoming execution, the absorbtion of part of the wildling army into Stannis' ranks and the reclaiming of the Gift should be there in some form, possibly with Jon Snow being given the offer to accept becoming Lord of Winterfell (if Robb Stark is dead), defecting from the Wall and give various parts of the North the chance a little later to accept Jon Snow as Lord of Winterfell, accept Roose Bolton as Lord of Winterfell or declare their independence. At that point, Jon Snow is absorbed by The North, but he comes in as their HOS, and the North becomes a puppet of Baratheon. The Boltons would, obviously, be a puppet of the Lannisters by this stage. Independents might be dealt with by either side.
What else...I think we can assume some kind of event series choosing between Asha Greyjoy and Euron Greyjoy...most likely an Ironborn Civil War, but at the least a massive jump in dissent for both, probably more so for Asha, given that the Ironborn would really expect a King, not a queen. Technically, if Theon is still alive / unimprisoned, he would be a valid candidate as well, and his election WOULD cause an Ironborn Civil War. I assume that there are 'defection of Theon Greyjoy' and 'The Capture of Winterfell' events for Stark and Greyjoy respectively, causing the war between Greyjoy and Stark, and then Winterfell to be taken by the Ironborn.
Give it a bit, and if the Starks haven't retaken Winterfell then trigger Ramsay Bolton's betrayal, and have Theon killed (or effectively killed) and Winterfell returned to the north. My devious mind says that this should sleep an event by which Roose or Ramsay Bolton, depending how things go, will be more likely to side with the Lannisters over the Red Wedding, given that they are then arguably the single most powerful force in the North.
Speaking of the Red Wedding...what happens to a Stark player in the wake of it? They meander along under...well, who? Until Jon Snow decides if he wants it, there really isn't anyone to take the reins, except possibly Jeyne Westerling? It'd be a shame to make it a suicide event for the Starks. I assume that it can be avoided, at the cost of a major +dissent for the Starks for angering the Freys and not defending the north from the Ironborn. Triggering Frey independence? Quite probably.
Equally, I suppose there's a Jeyne Westerling event, which if the historical route isn't taken could avoid the Red Wedding altogether (although I think that the Freys and Boltons ought to have a stab at becoming independent and allying with the Lannisters anyway).
I won't mention anything about Daenerys because, obviously, the Queen across the Water will be implemented at some other stage.
Okay, finally getting to the end of the download. Couple of random things and thoughts from the other screenshots. Joffrey as Lord? King, surely? Although, offhand, I'm not sure if the titles remain the same for all realms...if they do, I can see why that would be a pain. HOS = King would still probably be accurate for the vast majority, though, and Head of Government as Hand of the King. I'm frankly stunned that Maester isn't a position. Master of Dragons is, while logical being a direct translation to the airforce, not ideal. Surely Dragons can only be available via secret projects? (which, so far, only Dany and Stannis look even vaguely like acheiving)
I'm imagining that rocket test sites will be changed into, possibly, Wildfire creation sites? Or just be done with it and call it a Pyromancer's Guild. Nuclear sites, I presume, will be related to the Dragons in some way, shape or form. Breeding grounds? Obviously, breeding dragons will take an absolute age and only Dany actually has three breeding at game start (well, we have to take a few liberties, unless you can cause them to be begun via an event).
Anyway, digressing. Surely one of the titles should be Master of Horse, given that most of the houses appear to have one? Finally, a title such as Castellan might make way for religious titles? Don't know what you'd call it generically, but the Septons certainly ought to be recognised. You've got Red Priests for R'hllor, and presumably, in a slightly tongue-in-cheek way, you've got things like Winterfell Weirwood for the Old Gods.
Finally, diplomacy sliders...I think 'Good' and 'Evil' is a bit extreme. Dany, for example, will merrily conquer her way across the Summer Sea, but I wouldn't call her evil. Perhaps Ambition - Meekness would be a better slider to have? Those who wish nothing to do with any wars (Lisa Arryn, most of the non-Westerosi world) would need a high level of belligerence to DoW, whereas the ambitious ones (Joffrey, Dany) will happily DoW anyone who gets in their way.
The Starks, I would imagine, are on the low side. Its the belligerence caused by the execution of Eddard Stark that causes Robb to march. The Tyrells are notably more amibitious. Dorne is hard to say, but probably round the middle, if a bit on the meek side. In fact, most of the regions in Westeros are led by ambitious people, which is part of the reason why the war is so terrible. Couping them to replace, e.g., Joffrey(NS) with Tommen(SC) could be rather a useful tool.
Northern and Southern (Southron, surely?). I'll have to see how you've implemented that, because that slider must be a right royal pain. Rest looks damn good.
*Goes off to play it*
Even if the North 'feels' big, it does appear far too small. Whilst obviously the detail is needed for the south, where most of the fighting happens (and where most of Martin's description has been so far), the fact that the North is endless miles of mostly empty wasteland should nonetheless be recreated.
Speaking specifically of the map, I'm only going by that screenshot that you've posted, but I'm confused about the exact layout of the meeting of the North and South. The Twins in this look to be a particularly useless point where in reality they were a major barrier to crossing the Green Fork and a good place for the Freys to project power from. They could easily cut off the Cape of Eagles to the West and the Kingsroad to the East and with three provinces (in-game) create a barrier between north and south. I think there's a bit too much room to maneouvre around ol' Walder Frey in your map as-is.
And, of course, I fully expect to see him, Roose Bolton and whoever the Karstark heir is given the option to declare their independence from Riverrun / The North and forge an immediate alliance with the Lannisters and each other, with the Freys getting territorial claims over all the former Riverlands and the Boltons getting territorial claims over the North. All, of course, tied in with the Red Wedding event set.
I'm also having a few headaches with working out exactly why the islands are where they are. Obviously, the shoreline makes a big difference, but the Iron Islands are completely in the middle of nowhere! And what on earth is the second Tyrell island? One is obviously the Arbor...guess I'll have to wait for the download. They are a bit far away, though...and given that every other island is represented, where are the Three Sisters? Agh! I'm confused.
The Wall seems somehow...erm...skewed to one side as well. Is it only in one province? I would have thought that the wall would be (at least...) three provinces long for the Shadow Tower, Castle Black and Eastwatch by the Sea. Then there's Brandon's Gift and the New Gift...the Night's Watch just looks remarkably tiny. Surely they should feel like they have something five times the length of the Maginot line to defend, but only a fraction of the force needed to actually defend it?
Plus, if the Gift is made bigger, you can have a few nasty "Re-occupation of the Rhineland" style "Re-occupation of the Gift" events. If the NW move armies into the Gift, their belligerence should increase and relations should become highly strained with the North, and slightly so for the other kingdoms. They are, after all, not supposed to take any part in the squabbles of the kingdoms, so their armies should stay on their frozen wall and move nowhere else. Whether the AI would understand, I'm not sure...but worth a try.
Not sure what events you have or haven't got, and this download is taking ages, so I'll just keep running off at the mouth and feel free to ignore any suggestions you've already thought of...
Obviously, the Wildlings will at some stage attack the Wall, most likely triggered by the event set "The Search for the Horn of Winter". Naturally, during their march south Jon Snow will take a brief vacation from his position in the Night's Watch to appear in the Wildling 'government'. No Craster? Is he considered to be a part of the wildlings? I would have thought he would be independent but allied to the Night's Watch and have a non-aggression pact with the Wildlings (and, perhaps, the Others? Given his baby-killing...). He presumably has no IC, and neither a standing army or the obvious means to create one. The Wall has its independence guaranteed by all of the major houses, I would imagine.
The massacre at Craster's Keep must already be in place to trigger Jeor Mormont's death and, ultimately, Jon Snow's succession...presumably whoever acts as Head of Government would temporarily become Head of State as well, until Jon Snow arrives back again and is elected (although, muahahaha, I assume there is a choice to have Slynt elected and shortly have an event offering to turn the Wall into a Lannister puppet?)
Stannis, I presume, has a Davos event triggered for "The King must protect his realm" when the Wildlings DoW the Wall. I'm not sure exactly how you could style the events of Mance Rayder's defeat (or, of course, his ahistorical victory) but obviously his forthcoming execution, the absorbtion of part of the wildling army into Stannis' ranks and the reclaiming of the Gift should be there in some form, possibly with Jon Snow being given the offer to accept becoming Lord of Winterfell (if Robb Stark is dead), defecting from the Wall and give various parts of the North the chance a little later to accept Jon Snow as Lord of Winterfell, accept Roose Bolton as Lord of Winterfell or declare their independence. At that point, Jon Snow is absorbed by The North, but he comes in as their HOS, and the North becomes a puppet of Baratheon. The Boltons would, obviously, be a puppet of the Lannisters by this stage. Independents might be dealt with by either side.
What else...I think we can assume some kind of event series choosing between Asha Greyjoy and Euron Greyjoy...most likely an Ironborn Civil War, but at the least a massive jump in dissent for both, probably more so for Asha, given that the Ironborn would really expect a King, not a queen. Technically, if Theon is still alive / unimprisoned, he would be a valid candidate as well, and his election WOULD cause an Ironborn Civil War. I assume that there are 'defection of Theon Greyjoy' and 'The Capture of Winterfell' events for Stark and Greyjoy respectively, causing the war between Greyjoy and Stark, and then Winterfell to be taken by the Ironborn.
Give it a bit, and if the Starks haven't retaken Winterfell then trigger Ramsay Bolton's betrayal, and have Theon killed (or effectively killed) and Winterfell returned to the north. My devious mind says that this should sleep an event by which Roose or Ramsay Bolton, depending how things go, will be more likely to side with the Lannisters over the Red Wedding, given that they are then arguably the single most powerful force in the North.
Speaking of the Red Wedding...what happens to a Stark player in the wake of it? They meander along under...well, who? Until Jon Snow decides if he wants it, there really isn't anyone to take the reins, except possibly Jeyne Westerling? It'd be a shame to make it a suicide event for the Starks. I assume that it can be avoided, at the cost of a major +dissent for the Starks for angering the Freys and not defending the north from the Ironborn. Triggering Frey independence? Quite probably.
Equally, I suppose there's a Jeyne Westerling event, which if the historical route isn't taken could avoid the Red Wedding altogether (although I think that the Freys and Boltons ought to have a stab at becoming independent and allying with the Lannisters anyway).
I won't mention anything about Daenerys because, obviously, the Queen across the Water will be implemented at some other stage.
Okay, finally getting to the end of the download. Couple of random things and thoughts from the other screenshots. Joffrey as Lord? King, surely? Although, offhand, I'm not sure if the titles remain the same for all realms...if they do, I can see why that would be a pain. HOS = King would still probably be accurate for the vast majority, though, and Head of Government as Hand of the King. I'm frankly stunned that Maester isn't a position. Master of Dragons is, while logical being a direct translation to the airforce, not ideal. Surely Dragons can only be available via secret projects? (which, so far, only Dany and Stannis look even vaguely like acheiving)
I'm imagining that rocket test sites will be changed into, possibly, Wildfire creation sites? Or just be done with it and call it a Pyromancer's Guild. Nuclear sites, I presume, will be related to the Dragons in some way, shape or form. Breeding grounds? Obviously, breeding dragons will take an absolute age and only Dany actually has three breeding at game start (well, we have to take a few liberties, unless you can cause them to be begun via an event).
Anyway, digressing. Surely one of the titles should be Master of Horse, given that most of the houses appear to have one? Finally, a title such as Castellan might make way for religious titles? Don't know what you'd call it generically, but the Septons certainly ought to be recognised. You've got Red Priests for R'hllor, and presumably, in a slightly tongue-in-cheek way, you've got things like Winterfell Weirwood for the Old Gods.
Finally, diplomacy sliders...I think 'Good' and 'Evil' is a bit extreme. Dany, for example, will merrily conquer her way across the Summer Sea, but I wouldn't call her evil. Perhaps Ambition - Meekness would be a better slider to have? Those who wish nothing to do with any wars (Lisa Arryn, most of the non-Westerosi world) would need a high level of belligerence to DoW, whereas the ambitious ones (Joffrey, Dany) will happily DoW anyone who gets in their way.
The Starks, I would imagine, are on the low side. Its the belligerence caused by the execution of Eddard Stark that causes Robb to march. The Tyrells are notably more amibitious. Dorne is hard to say, but probably round the middle, if a bit on the meek side. In fact, most of the regions in Westeros are led by ambitious people, which is part of the reason why the war is so terrible. Couping them to replace, e.g., Joffrey(NS) with Tommen(SC) could be rather a useful tool.
Northern and Southern (Southron, surely?). I'll have to see how you've implemented that, because that slider must be a right royal pain. Rest looks damn good.
*Goes off to play it*
Just a thought... would it possible to use Africa to the North Pole? Just change the scale and movement speeds to reflect a greater level of detail?
That would answer some of the map queries maybe. But that's chrome more than anything else I guess.
That would answer some of the map queries maybe. But that's chrome more than anything else I guess.
I just want to say thanks for your many great ideas. I must state that what you have downloaded is an early beta with many things not completed yet so many of the things you have suggested will be absent from it. But these will certainly be in future versions. I will come to back some of your points as I begin to script more events, make some of the smaller countries, change policy/diplomacy settings etc. But the map might be quite hard to change. Most of the islands are located much further from the coast than in reality, this is because of the fact that I have to use the original HOI2 provinces. I know it looks weird but if we want the islands there it is the only option availeble. Hope you will enjoy the beta even so. Please comment further when you have tried it. It is really good to get this input of yours and others.Woz Early said:
Zebedee said:
This would certainly better the map much and make for a really interesting game, but it requires that I change some of the sea provinces to land provinces and vice versa. I will have to look in to it.
Alternatively (and yes I've had a few beers) - how about rotating the map of Westeros a half turn clockwise?
That would mean Dorn could be, say Italy (or even Spain), Storm's End would be in Greece, you could have Riverrun somewhere near the Pripet marshes and all of Asia for the North. Would be slightly odd to look at first time, but it might avoid the problems of having to change land into sea..
Hope that makes sense and doesn't seem totally mad - just trying to figure out how to make the map just that little bit bigger.
Other ideas after a bit more play.
That would mean Dorn could be, say Italy (or even Spain), Storm's End would be in Greece, you could have Riverrun somewhere near the Pripet marshes and all of Asia for the North. Would be slightly odd to look at first time, but it might avoid the problems of having to change land into sea..
Hope that makes sense and doesn't seem totally mad - just trying to figure out how to make the map just that little bit bigger.
Other ideas after a bit more play.
Flipping hell! If you were unable to actually draw in a map, but managed to create something that still looks so similar to Westeros...that's eerie as hell. The coastline of the North is very, very close to the ASOIAF map.
Hopefully it will be possible, somehow, to rewrite the map at least to some extent. Good luck with your lookings into it.
I think event-wise, it depends on how much free will and how much determinism you want to write into the mod. For this kind of mod, I'm assuming that the way forwards will be that the general scenario is fairly determined, and set near the end of A Game of Thrones, or near the start of A Clash of Kings.
So, for example, the Lannisters will support Joffrey. Both Baratheons will have declared themselves Kings, the Targaryens are a pitiful force out in the middle of nowhere (but oh, are THEY going to get a nice set of events in the near future), Robb Stark has raised the North in rebellion, but not yet got through to Riverrun to become King. Tyrells have supported Renly, Dorne and the Eyrie are neutral.
If that isn't the case at the start (mod was a bad download, sadly. Will try again tomorrow), I assume it will be the case very early on. If Robb Stark frees Riverrun, he'll have the opportunity to crown himself King in the North and make the Riverlands a puppet (should be a fairly straightforward event).
I assume this has been done already, but I expect the three major claimants to the Iron Throne have been banded into being Allies, Axis and Comintern? An arbitrary division, but I assume Dragonstone under Stannis Baratheon as the likely leader of the Allies, the Lannisters as the leader in the Axis and Daenerys as the leader of the Comintern. Ultimately, all of the others are either supporting one of those major claimants (allies) or pursuing their own ends (Greyjoy, Stark, Rayder) etc.
That would give a sensible way to assess victory, if you distribute VP to the major areas, including tactical ones such as Moat Cailin. That way, the at-a-glance victory screen will still make sense, as it will display the relative powers of the Baratheon, Lannister and Targaryen camps.
Oh, and on an evil note, the Brotherhood Without Banners events will, presumably, trigger for the Lannisters on a fairly regular basis (got to keep Gregor Clegane occupied somehow...) by generating increased dissent levels and/or partisan forces in Lannister occupied territory. Of course, soon after Clegane puts them down they'll reappear AGAIN under Beric Dondarrion, miraculously raised from the dead.
And, of course, if and when the Red Wedding occurs, the BWB events will also trigger for the Freys...
Other things...Jeor Mormont's call to the five kings would be much like the Civil War in Spain interventions. Each King is asked if they will send men and materiel to the Wall (at a time when, clearly, those are at a premium). Obviously, it is likely that only Stannis Baratheon will respond. Likewise, when (if) the Wall is attacked by Wildlings, the Kings will be asked to mobilise to their defence, with most likely only Stannis (and possibly the North) actually doing so. Provided they do DoW the Wildlings and the Night's Watch still hold (x) number of their provinces after so much time, then it assumed that the Wildlings have failed, triggering the capture of Mance Rayder and dissolution of the Wildling army.
After that, the Wildlings will be pretty impotent (as most will have joined Stannis) and the few that remain in the Lands Beyond the Wall can safely be ignored. Perhaps to prevent colonisation of those lands, occupying any of them has a high risk of triggering an attack from either Wights or the Others, causing the occupying nation to lose (x) manpower, or materiel, etc.
Again, just thinking and typing (yeah, its a slow evening). The Death of Joffrey will be an event to warm people's hearts after the Red Wedding...presumably it'll trigger for the Westerlands and Dorne, given the involvement of both families in Tyrion's trial. If Tyrion is proclaimed innocent (ie, Martell wins the trial), then Gregor Clegane dies and the Martell's demand for justice by Oberyn will probably be extended to Tywin's head (which he might try to take by poisoning), and raise the likelihood of Dorne claiming Myrcella as the true heir to the Iron Throne.
Of course, if Clegane wins the trial there's still a high chance he'll die from the poisoning, and a high chance (certainty) that Tyrion will make his escape, killing Tywin and Shae in the process, and being joined by Varys...the three, presumably, to surface again with Daenerys. OTOH, Doran Martell is then more likely to subdue the rebellious elements in his court and not DoW the Lannisters. Not sure if you caught the same extract from the next book that I did, so I'll say no more on that.
Either way, Tywin Lannister is pretty much doomed, as is Oberyn Martell. IIRC, leaving the smart money on the choice of Hand being either Mace Tyrell or Kevan Lannister - so either weakening the already weakened Lannisters, or offending their only remaining ally. Ouch. Still, anyone playing the Lannisters deserves it, right?
Hopefully it will be possible, somehow, to rewrite the map at least to some extent. Good luck with your lookings into it.
I think event-wise, it depends on how much free will and how much determinism you want to write into the mod. For this kind of mod, I'm assuming that the way forwards will be that the general scenario is fairly determined, and set near the end of A Game of Thrones, or near the start of A Clash of Kings.
So, for example, the Lannisters will support Joffrey. Both Baratheons will have declared themselves Kings, the Targaryens are a pitiful force out in the middle of nowhere (but oh, are THEY going to get a nice set of events in the near future), Robb Stark has raised the North in rebellion, but not yet got through to Riverrun to become King. Tyrells have supported Renly, Dorne and the Eyrie are neutral.
If that isn't the case at the start (mod was a bad download, sadly. Will try again tomorrow), I assume it will be the case very early on. If Robb Stark frees Riverrun, he'll have the opportunity to crown himself King in the North and make the Riverlands a puppet (should be a fairly straightforward event).
I assume this has been done already, but I expect the three major claimants to the Iron Throne have been banded into being Allies, Axis and Comintern? An arbitrary division, but I assume Dragonstone under Stannis Baratheon as the likely leader of the Allies, the Lannisters as the leader in the Axis and Daenerys as the leader of the Comintern. Ultimately, all of the others are either supporting one of those major claimants (allies) or pursuing their own ends (Greyjoy, Stark, Rayder) etc.
That would give a sensible way to assess victory, if you distribute VP to the major areas, including tactical ones such as Moat Cailin. That way, the at-a-glance victory screen will still make sense, as it will display the relative powers of the Baratheon, Lannister and Targaryen camps.
Oh, and on an evil note, the Brotherhood Without Banners events will, presumably, trigger for the Lannisters on a fairly regular basis (got to keep Gregor Clegane occupied somehow...) by generating increased dissent levels and/or partisan forces in Lannister occupied territory. Of course, soon after Clegane puts them down they'll reappear AGAIN under Beric Dondarrion, miraculously raised from the dead.
And, of course, if and when the Red Wedding occurs, the BWB events will also trigger for the Freys...
Other things...Jeor Mormont's call to the five kings would be much like the Civil War in Spain interventions. Each King is asked if they will send men and materiel to the Wall (at a time when, clearly, those are at a premium). Obviously, it is likely that only Stannis Baratheon will respond. Likewise, when (if) the Wall is attacked by Wildlings, the Kings will be asked to mobilise to their defence, with most likely only Stannis (and possibly the North) actually doing so. Provided they do DoW the Wildlings and the Night's Watch still hold (x) number of their provinces after so much time, then it assumed that the Wildlings have failed, triggering the capture of Mance Rayder and dissolution of the Wildling army.
After that, the Wildlings will be pretty impotent (as most will have joined Stannis) and the few that remain in the Lands Beyond the Wall can safely be ignored. Perhaps to prevent colonisation of those lands, occupying any of them has a high risk of triggering an attack from either Wights or the Others, causing the occupying nation to lose (x) manpower, or materiel, etc.
Again, just thinking and typing (yeah, its a slow evening). The Death of Joffrey will be an event to warm people's hearts after the Red Wedding...presumably it'll trigger for the Westerlands and Dorne, given the involvement of both families in Tyrion's trial. If Tyrion is proclaimed innocent (ie, Martell wins the trial), then Gregor Clegane dies and the Martell's demand for justice by Oberyn will probably be extended to Tywin's head (which he might try to take by poisoning), and raise the likelihood of Dorne claiming Myrcella as the true heir to the Iron Throne.
Of course, if Clegane wins the trial there's still a high chance he'll die from the poisoning, and a high chance (certainty) that Tyrion will make his escape, killing Tywin and Shae in the process, and being joined by Varys...the three, presumably, to surface again with Daenerys. OTOH, Doran Martell is then more likely to subdue the rebellious elements in his court and not DoW the Lannisters. Not sure if you caught the same extract from the next book that I did, so I'll say no more on that.
Either way, Tywin Lannister is pretty much doomed, as is Oberyn Martell. IIRC, leaving the smart money on the choice of Hand being either Mace Tyrell or Kevan Lannister - so either weakening the already weakened Lannisters, or offending their only remaining ally. Ouch. Still, anyone playing the Lannisters deserves it, right?
Just some basic questions from me
What scale for troops are you using?
At the start of the war, the forces look something like this (rounding to nearest 500):
Lannister:
With Tywin and Kevan:
7000 cavalry
13000 foot
With Jaime
3000 cavalry
12000 foot
At King's Landing there are 2000 gold cloaks (when war is declared a further 4000 are recruited). Perhaps 500 cavalry (knights, squires and men at arms) and 1000 sellswords also (although the sellswords are recruited when Tyrion returns to King's Landing).
Riverrun can call approx. 20000 swords (presumably Renly was including the 4000 Freys in this count).
Leaving Winterfell, Robb has 3000 horse and 9000 foot, which increases as he travels south to a total of 20000 men by the time he reaches the Twins (eg the Manderly's send 500 horse and 1000 foot but leave some behind to defend their own lands). Robb leaves roughly 2500 men in the North to guard Winterfell etc, plus you have the 500 or so horse Bolton left with his bastard.
Storm's End and High Garden together can field 20 000 horse and 90 000 foot.
The Greyjoys can muster (assuming 100 men to a longboat) something in the region of 7000 foot.
Dragonstone can field 500 horse (light according to Renly) and 4500 foot. They do have 220 galleys and cogs though.
Just some things I've noticed in mod so far:
Can't find Stannis as a leader for his armies.
Pic of Melisandre is missing (sure Amok has got a pic of her - looked quite foxy IIRC ). Think there a few more characters Amok has done which you haven't got in the mod.
The pics in the tech teams appear a little 'stretched' - is this a consequence of trying to fit them into the required space? Might it be better to cut them as portraits or would the artist object to that?
Lannister's tend to win very easily currently. I think they are probably a little overpowered - the second army at Lannisport wasn't conscripted until after Jaime lost at Riverrun.
Tyrell and Florent Light Cavalry are actually light infantry units.
Golden Tooth builds up supplies without releasing them to Hightower even when territory is contiguous to it and it is obtained via a peace deal.
What scale for troops are you using?
At the start of the war, the forces look something like this (rounding to nearest 500):
Lannister:
With Tywin and Kevan:
7000 cavalry
13000 foot
With Jaime
3000 cavalry
12000 foot
At King's Landing there are 2000 gold cloaks (when war is declared a further 4000 are recruited). Perhaps 500 cavalry (knights, squires and men at arms) and 1000 sellswords also (although the sellswords are recruited when Tyrion returns to King's Landing).
Riverrun can call approx. 20000 swords (presumably Renly was including the 4000 Freys in this count).
Leaving Winterfell, Robb has 3000 horse and 9000 foot, which increases as he travels south to a total of 20000 men by the time he reaches the Twins (eg the Manderly's send 500 horse and 1000 foot but leave some behind to defend their own lands). Robb leaves roughly 2500 men in the North to guard Winterfell etc, plus you have the 500 or so horse Bolton left with his bastard.
Storm's End and High Garden together can field 20 000 horse and 90 000 foot.
The Greyjoys can muster (assuming 100 men to a longboat) something in the region of 7000 foot.
Dragonstone can field 500 horse (light according to Renly) and 4500 foot. They do have 220 galleys and cogs though.
Just some things I've noticed in mod so far:
Can't find Stannis as a leader for his armies.
Pic of Melisandre is missing (sure Amok has got a pic of her - looked quite foxy IIRC
). Think there a few more characters Amok has done which you haven't got in the mod.The pics in the tech teams appear a little 'stretched' - is this a consequence of trying to fit them into the required space? Might it be better to cut them as portraits or would the artist object to that?
Lannister's tend to win very easily currently. I think they are probably a little overpowered - the second army at Lannisport wasn't conscripted until after Jaime lost at Riverrun.
Tyrell and Florent Light Cavalry are actually light infantry units.
Golden Tooth builds up supplies without releasing them to Hightower even when territory is contiguous to it and it is obtained via a peace deal.
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Woz Early said:
Thanks.
Woz Early said:
Actually two event series trigger in the first couple of days setting all major alliances up. Mostly this results in a setup similar or close to similar to that in the books. One of the event series start with the Lannisters deciding what to do with eddard stark. If the execute him the north is bound to declare war on them, if they release him the north can support either the lannisters or stannis(being most likely), if they send eddard to the wall robb can support stannis, the lannisters or he can go to war independently. The tullys and the Vale gets events based upon what the north chooses to do.
A similar event series is done for stannis, renly and the tyrells where the choices of renly determines the choice options for the tyrells. Stannis is going to war no matter what.
Woz Early said:
Well I was thinking of making the Others the Comintern faction, R'hollor believers the axis faction and the original westeros believers in the allies. This will have no meaning in the beginning of the game but with the next version of the mod the others will appear in 1938 in great numbers.
Every single province has at least 1 victory point, but strategic places like the twins, the capitals big cities etc have more of course
Woz Early said:
Not Included in the current version but it will probably be in the next one
Woz Early said:
Not Included in the current version but it will probably be in the next one
Woz Early said:
Sounds like good ideas. I will see what I can manage to script for the next version
Woz Early said:
Again the others will be a great force. You don't want to be outside the wall when they appear. When the others appear the wildlings will get the option to seek refuge and peace with the wall giving the brandons gift, queens crown and new gift. These provinces will recieve extra IC and the wall will get extra manpower.
Woz Early said:Again, just thinking and typing (yeah, its a slow evening). The Death of Joffrey will be an event to warm people's hearts after the Red Wedding...presumably it'll trigger for the Westerlands and Dorne, given the involvement of both families in Tyrion's trial. If Tyrion is proclaimed innocent (ie, Martell wins the trial), then Gregor Clegane dies and the Martell's demand for justice by Oberyn will probably be extended to Tywin's head (which he might try to take by poisoning), and raise the likelihood of Dorne claiming Myrcella as the true heir to the Iron Throne.
Of course, if Clegane wins the trial there's still a high chance he'll die from the poisoning, and a high chance (certainty) that Tyrion will make his escape, killing Tywin and Shae in the process, and being joined by Varys...the three, presumably, to surface again with Daenerys. OTOH, Doran Martell is then more likely to subdue the rebellious elements in his court and not DoW the Lannisters. Not sure if you caught the same extract from the next book that I did, so I'll say no more on that.
Either way, Tywin Lannister is pretty much doomed, as is Oberyn Martell. IIRC, leaving the smart money on the choice of Hand being either Mace Tyrell or Kevan Lannister - so either weakening the already weakened Lannisters, or offending their only remaining ally. Ouch. Still, anyone playing the Lannisters deserves it, right?
Again I will se what I can do before next release, but eventually these events will find their way into the mod don't worry
Thanks for the many fine ideas
Zebedee said:
I had actually thought of this as well but didn't do it as I thought most people would find it too weird. What do people think of this idea?
Zebedee said:Just some basic questions from me
What scale for troops are you using?
At the start of the war, the forces look something like this (rounding to nearest 500):
Lannister:
With Tywin and Kevan:
7000 cavalry
13000 foot
With Jaime
3000 cavalry
12000 foot
At King's Landing there are 2000 gold cloaks (when war is declared a further 4000 are recruited). Perhaps 500 cavalry (knights, squires and men at arms) and 1000 sellswords also (although the sellswords are recruited when Tyrion returns to King's Landing).
Riverrun can call approx. 20000 swords (presumably Renly was including the 4000 Freys in this count).
Leaving Winterfell, Robb has 3000 horse and 9000 foot, which increases as he travels south to a total of 20000 men by the time he reaches the Twins (eg the Manderly's send 500 horse and 1000 foot but leave some behind to defend their own lands). Robb leaves roughly 2500 men in the North to guard Winterfell etc, plus you have the 500 or so horse Bolton left with his bastard.
Storm's End and High Garden together can field 20 000 horse and 90 000 foot.
The Greyjoys can muster (assuming 100 men to a longboat) something in the region of 7000 foot.
Dragonstone can field 500 horse (light according to Renly) and 4500 foot. They do have 220 galleys and cogs though.
Just some things I've noticed in mod so far:
Can't find Stannis as a leader for his armies.
Pic of Melisandre is missing (sure Amok has got a pic of her - looked quite foxy IIRC
The pics in the tech teams appear a little 'stretched' - is this a consequence of trying to fit them into the required space? Might it be better to cut them as portraits or would the artist object to that?
Lannister's tend to win very easily currently. I think they are probably a little overpowered - the second army at Lannisport wasn't conscripted until after Jaime lost at Riverrun.
Tyrell and Florent Light Cavalry are actually light infantry units.
Golden Tooth builds up supplies without releasing them to Hightower even when territory is contiguous to it and it is obtained via a peace deal.
I have generally scripted the troop numbers tomatch that found under concordance at westeros.org (1000men = 1unit). But I will look at the troop numbers again. Actually I have just played two games where the lannisters were beaten badly so it doesn't happen in every game but if the reach bows to the lannisters the rest will have serious problems but this is as it should be.
I will see if i can make better tech team pictures for the next version and I will definately change those units. Don't know whats causing the supply problems though... maybe the lack of sea?
re. Golden Tooth. Odd thing is that Fair Isle was also given up by the Lannisters to the Tyrells, and that quite happily sends everything on. Not sure what is going on with Golden Tooth - the land is all adjoining and I can't see why it won't transfer the supplies along either of the land routes. edit: ok save and reloading clears this bug up. May need to save and reload a couple of times though before it vanishes.
re. Lannisters. Fair point
re. Lannisters. Fair point
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Hmm...I see the logic of having the Others as a sweeping force that will strike Westeros (although, currently, this is pure speculation. ) and hence giving them an alliance slot, but since realistically no-one else could ally with them, given that they hate everything living, is that necessarily the best choice?
I'm just not sure how well they'll work as a proper faction, because they wouldn't conduct diplomatic deals and its not really possible to go to war with them in a conventional sense (at least, not at present). The Night's Watch has only just worked out that Dragonglass can stop them (and that's only on Sam's evidence), and Dragonglass isn't being mined any more. I'm not even sure if anyone knows how to work it in Westeros - wasn't it something only the Children did?
I imagine that the Others would strike via events to cripple anyone north of the Wall...and, if the Wall is broken, cripple people southwards as well. Still, your mod, your call.
On the note of R'hllor believers, isn't that basically Stannis? And isn't there a chance that he might listen to Davos and throw off Melisandre's shackles, picking up the Seven again? (I know, maybe a bit late by the stage the series is now, but he might not necessarily burn the Seven on Dragonstone, for example, or use the shadows to kill the other kings)
I suppose its how you see the struggle as to what power groups you assign. I personally see the underlying struggle of the series so far as being for the crown of Westeros (hence Baratheon, Lannister, Targaryen), but I expect that we will see a fourth element with regard to the Others appearing in future books. Depends how much you want to second guess, I suppose.
I've got hold of the mod, so I'll play around with it ASAP. If I can get my head around HOI2 event scripting and you want an extra pair of hands, I'd be happy to help scripting events.
) and hence giving them an alliance slot, but since realistically no-one else could ally with them, given that they hate everything living, is that necessarily the best choice?I'm just not sure how well they'll work as a proper faction, because they wouldn't conduct diplomatic deals and its not really possible to go to war with them in a conventional sense (at least, not at present). The Night's Watch has only just worked out that Dragonglass can stop them (and that's only on Sam's evidence), and Dragonglass isn't being mined any more. I'm not even sure if anyone knows how to work it in Westeros - wasn't it something only the Children did?
I imagine that the Others would strike via events to cripple anyone north of the Wall...and, if the Wall is broken, cripple people southwards as well. Still, your mod, your call.
On the note of R'hllor believers, isn't that basically Stannis? And isn't there a chance that he might listen to Davos and throw off Melisandre's shackles, picking up the Seven again? (I know, maybe a bit late by the stage the series is now, but he might not necessarily burn the Seven on Dragonstone, for example, or use the shadows to kill the other kings)
I suppose its how you see the struggle as to what power groups you assign. I personally see the underlying struggle of the series so far as being for the crown of Westeros (hence Baratheon, Lannister, Targaryen), but I expect that we will see a fourth element with regard to the Others appearing in future books. Depends how much you want to second guess, I suppose.
I've got hold of the mod, so I'll play around with it ASAP. If I can get my head around HOI2 event scripting and you want an extra pair of hands, I'd be happy to help scripting events.
Just a little more feedback/bug reporting:
On 24th October 1936, after completing the first two techs in the 'Taxation' series at the same time, all the Tyrell's research team vanished. Not sure what went on there.
Very enjoyable game this time round too - Wildlings annexed wall, and everyone else ganged up on the Lannisters.
One thing to note about the AI is that it doesn't defend the fortified positions very well for this mod. Wonder if 1.3 will help out here when it is released, although the scripts will probably have to be copy pasted across for this mod.
Would 'anti-armour infantry' brigade be better put as 'pikemen'? Or is that what you intended to convey with your spearmen brigades?
Lots of room for a tech tree for spying (op int for game purposes) - literacy, ravens, 'little birds' ?
I'm fiddling about with new counter designs (unsuccessfully but meh!) but if there's anything I can do to help, let me know and farm it out to me
On 24th October 1936, after completing the first two techs in the 'Taxation' series at the same time, all the Tyrell's research team vanished. Not sure what went on there.
Very enjoyable game this time round too - Wildlings annexed wall, and everyone else ganged up on the Lannisters.
One thing to note about the AI is that it doesn't defend the fortified positions very well for this mod. Wonder if 1.3 will help out here when it is released, although the scripts will probably have to be copy pasted across for this mod.
Would 'anti-armour infantry' brigade be better put as 'pikemen'? Or is that what you intended to convey with your spearmen brigades?
Lots of room for a tech tree for spying (op int for game purposes) - literacy, ravens, 'little birds' ?
I'm fiddling about with new counter designs (unsuccessfully but meh!) but if there's anything I can do to help, let me know and farm it out to me
Woz Early said:Hmm...I see the logic of having the Others as a sweeping force that will strike Westeros (although, currently, this is pure speculation.
I'm just not sure how well they'll work as a proper faction, because they wouldn't conduct diplomatic deals and its not really possible to go to war with them in a conventional sense (at least, not at present). The Night's Watch has only just worked out that Dragonglass can stop them (and that's only on Sam's evidence), and Dragonglass isn't being mined any more. I'm not even sure if anyone knows how to work it in Westeros - wasn't it something only the Children did?
I imagine that the Others would strike via events to cripple anyone north of the Wall...and, if the Wall is broken, cripple people southwards as well. Still, your mod, your call.
On the note of R'hllor believers, isn't that basically Stannis? And isn't there a chance that he might listen to Davos and throw off Melisandre's shackles, picking up the Seven again? (I know, maybe a bit late by the stage the series is now, but he might not necessarily burn the Seven on Dragonstone, for example, or use the shadows to kill the other kings)
I suppose its how you see the struggle as to what power groups you assign. I personally see the underlying struggle of the series so far as being for the crown of Westeros (hence Baratheon, Lannister, Targaryen), but I expect that we will see a fourth element with regard to the Others appearing in future books. Depends how much you want to second guess, I suppose.
I've got hold of the mod, so I'll play around with it ASAP. If I can get my head around HOI2 event scripting and you want an extra pair of hands, I'd be happy to help scripting events.
The alliances are definately not settled yet. It would be better if we could have kings instead of religions but unfortunately there are far more kings than alliances. Maybe this will be settled when the next book comes out. Wait a little while with the event scripting until the next version as I have already made a lot of events and theres no reason we do the work twice.
After next version I will take a break with the event scripting and then you're welcome
Zebedee said:
Nice keep it coming
Zebedee said:
Me neither
Zebedee said:
I'm not really into AI programming and I have just used the minor_default ai file for all factions. I might look into this later but so far it works somewhat ok. But anyway let's see what 1.3 does about this.
Zebedee said:
Spearmen were supposed to represent pikemen, helbardiers etc. therefore the bonus to defensiveness. Anti-armor infantry are not really extra men but should rather represent that the men in the division it is attached to have recieved extra anti armor weapons. They are in to give people an option to defeat heavily armored infantry/cavalry.
Zebedee said:
I plan too have many more techs in the next version and military related techs will certainly be first priority.
Zebedee said:I'm fiddling about with new counter designs (unsuccessfully but meh!) but if there's anything I can do to help, let me know and farm it out to me
Graphics including or rather especially counters would be great so if you can get it to work I would be very happy
Ok, counters are going to take a long time. They truly, truly suck for modding and I'm having to sit down and figure out how best to do them pixel by pixel. If someone who is faster at doing them shows up - grab them
Just a few (very minor) observations:
Typos:
Aeron_Greyjoy
Samwell tarly
Eddard Stark seems to start the game at the wall even before the event fires. Shortcut for the event rather than waking/sleeping him or event misfire?
Some of the components for techs don't seem quite right. eg One of the trading techs has 'restaurants'.
Might it be better to scale the units so that a cavalry unit represents 500 men and 1000 men remains the infantry standard? To compensate the cost of cavalry could be really increased for maintenance. Supply usage for all units may need tinkering a little bit too - King's Landing has a population of 500 000 but only yields a few thousand troops in a really desperate situation. Medieval warfare was hampered by logistics more than anything else.
The production of goods in areas may need rebalancing - as the Wall, I was easily able to amass massive stockpiles in everything by 1939. That was without excessive trading - just accepting AI offers and ensuring that everything was in the green.
Infrastructure likewise could be tweaked a little. This would make the main roads much more valuable for movement and as invasion routes. eg Moat Caitlin by default becomes the only really viable route through the neck if it is the only piece of land with decent infrastructure.
To help the AI guard areas of importance is it possible to 'sleep' units until they are attacked or woken by events like the Paradox scenarios? This would prevent everyone from leaving their capitals totally undefended (ok Robb did it partly, but the Lannisters wouldn't leave King's Landing without some defenders ).
Just a few (very minor) observations:
Typos:
Aeron_Greyjoy
Samwell tarly
Eddard Stark seems to start the game at the wall even before the event fires. Shortcut for the event rather than waking/sleeping him or event misfire?
Some of the components for techs don't seem quite right. eg One of the trading techs has 'restaurants'.
Might it be better to scale the units so that a cavalry unit represents 500 men and 1000 men remains the infantry standard? To compensate the cost of cavalry could be really increased for maintenance. Supply usage for all units may need tinkering a little bit too - King's Landing has a population of 500 000 but only yields a few thousand troops in a really desperate situation. Medieval warfare was hampered by logistics more than anything else.
The production of goods in areas may need rebalancing - as the Wall, I was easily able to amass massive stockpiles in everything by 1939. That was without excessive trading - just accepting AI offers and ensuring that everything was in the green.
Infrastructure likewise could be tweaked a little. This would make the main roads much more valuable for movement and as invasion routes. eg Moat Caitlin by default becomes the only really viable route through the neck if it is the only piece of land with decent infrastructure.
To help the AI guard areas of importance is it possible to 'sleep' units until they are attacked or woken by events like the Paradox scenarios? This would prevent everyone from leaving their capitals totally undefended (ok Robb did it partly, but the Lannisters wouldn't leave King's Landing without some defenders
).
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Zebedee said:Ok, counters are going to take a long time. They truly, truly suck for modding and I'm having to sit down and figure out how best to do them pixel by pixel. If someone who is faster at doing them shows up - grab them
Take your time. I'm even worse at it believe me...
Zebedee said:
Going to fix this, thanks
Zebedee said:
There is no "wakeminister function" so both the wall and the north starts with Eddard Stark as a minister. They will lose him day 1 if the lannisters decide to execute him or to send him to the "other" place.
Zebedee said:
It was supposed to represent something like Merchant Accomodation and Entertainment. Will definately change the name.
Zebedee said:
OK I will change the cavalry to represent 500 men this will mean twice the amount of cavalry on the map which would be better I suppose.
Kings Landing produces a huge amount of manpower as well as IC already but I could increase this amount if its what you want. I just supposed that a lot of the industry was not really tied to the war effort and was not really gaining the Lannisters anything. But the manpower should probably be tweaked as they managed to hire a lot of goldcloaks in almost no time.
Zebedee said:
I haven't spent much time on the resource destribution. I just threw a lot of resources on the map to prevent lack of resources to effect the of hand games where I tested other things. It should definately be scaled down. Are people alright with the current resources (Basic, Northern, Southern, Luxuries) or should they be changed into something else (Food, Iron, Horses, Luxuries?).
Zebedee said:
I definately intend to include all the roads as a zones with 80-100% infrastructure. Most of the southern provinces without roads will have 40-60%, the north 30-50% and beyond the wall 0-30%.
Zebedee said:To help the AI guard areas of importance is it possible to 'sleep' units until they are attacked or woken by events like the Paradox scenarios? This would prevent everyone from leaving their capitals totally undefended (ok Robb did it partly, but the Lannisters wouldn't leave King's Landing without some defenders
It is possible to freeze units in place but I would much rather solve it with AI programming.
re. manpower and logistics. Sorry, I didn't make my point too clear. I just feel that the upkeep costs of units (in supplies) could probably be raised a bit. It should really hurt even a great lord to keep a large army in the field. (Is it possible to give different 'nations' different stockpile numbers for the start to reflect the differing wealth/resources on hand?)
Though 4000 men were raised quite quickly for the gold cloaks that's in a massive city (in medieval terms).The question should be 'why weren't more raised?'. Simple answer is that they couldn't be armed or fed. The manpower at the moment seems fine (only the Wall seems to run out very quickly which is as it should be).
I'm guessing that you've already thought about throwing in some 'buy mercenary' events?
Though 4000 men were raised quite quickly for the gold cloaks that's in a massive city (in medieval terms).The question should be 'why weren't more raised?'. Simple answer is that they couldn't be armed or fed. The manpower at the moment seems fine (only the Wall seems to run out very quickly which is as it should be).
I'm guessing that you've already thought about throwing in some 'buy mercenary' events?