A United Storyline for the North

[MattyG]

There have been a number of recent postings in a variety of threads discussing some of the problems and possible solutions for the affairs of the north. If we are in the process of re-orienting a number of the northern countries, I think it will be very useful to have a thread wherein we discuss a unified storyline, a songsheet from which all the jazz elements, from Finnic Flugelhorns to Scottish Bagpies and Kalmarian Tympani can play from.

Firs, lets look at some of the bigger issues that players have been grappling with.


1. Kalmar vrs Hansa

Currently they start continue and end at loggerheads and we want to create possibilities for them to cooperate.


2. Kalmar vrs Norway

They go to war in the first few days an Norway is almost always out of the game by 1435. Too predictable.


3. Finland

Cited as one of the majors, but actually a poor cousin. In part it needs a few better events/leaders/monarchs to compete, but it also is a little 'trapped' with no natural allies.


4. The Russian areas

Currently mostly fodder for the Teutonic Order.


5. Ukraine

Ukraine suffers from too many directions to expand in and doesn't necessarily handle any of it well. That's partly an ai issue that needs eventually to be improved. But it also lacks an event structure to handle its relationships with Byzantium, Hungary and the TO (well, partly). It is currently mostly built around beating up the Horde.


There are certainly other areas of interest and concern, but those seemm to be the big picture elements


I'd like to suggest a new opening structure/history that might help those writing for the individual countries.



Kalmar

The Union currently begins the game in a strong position, surrounded by weak Norway, weak Finland and the Hansa who have a lot of potential enemies on other sides. Improvements in the Scottish ai (or if its player run) mean that it doesn't totally get its way in Norway, but it remains fairly easy pickings. And everybody picks on Finland, so that finding ai allies for wars there is pretty easy. This leaves the Hansa, who are economically a powerhouse, but everyone wants their CoTs and they can get set upon. There really isn't anything challenging for Kalmar, unless two of Hansa, Finalnd and Scotland are both player-run.

Instead, let's say that the Union begins the game on shakey political ground. There has been a recent war with Finland that ended poorly with the loss of a province. Dissent from both Swedish and Danish aristicracy regarding the relative importance of the two groups in the Unions political system. And Union merchants eye the advantages the Hansa cities enjoy and see the Union currently failing their needs there. They don't get a decent military leader until (unless) the Dund Crisis triggers. However, it gets a very good monarch in about 1435 who mnages to strengthen the Union, assuming it survives until then. In this way, we create a sound basis for Hansa-Kalmar cooperation in the early years. Both of these 'nations' are in a difficult position politically, their sovreignty and cohesion in doubt. It could even be argued that we begin the game with Hansa and Kalmar in an alliance. With these historical assumptions we instead create a situation where Hansa and Kalmar are their own best friends at game start. I actually think this makes a Sund Crisis even more intriguing, not less.


Hansa

Has a great starting storyline, that will be enhanced once bobtdwarf and mikl work out how the HRE will be played out.


Finland

I suggest that Finland begins the game as a strong(er) nation, recent victors over the Union and with a strong political tie to Norway. Possibly even in an alliance with Norway and Scotland, but one that will soon be tested. While it begins the game with an excellent monarch, he dies in 1440 and then it experiences a more difficult period. Finland needs to begin with a lot of positive relations with Brittany, Scotland and other potential ai-aggressors who want to teach its orthodox people lessons they don't want to know. Finland's direction will still be very uncertain, as it is physically boxed in. It's survivial will depend upon the emergence of a stronger Novgorod.


Novgorod

Whether this is the name or something else, Incompetant suggests that perhaps we look at a more stable country that can exist in the Russian lands. Not Russia. It would have Russian culture, but would never get al those cores and the endless supply of quality leaders.


Finland+Novgorod

The Order will inevitably set upon the Russians in their crusade. Finland and Novgorod would form into an alliance against the crusade. If they do well against the Order and its allies, they remain separate countries and maintain a fairly good relationship, with Finland spreading west and explorering, while Novgorod would spread in an more southerly direction. However, if the Order + Kalmar + others do well against them, we could write a storlyline that see an Orthodox Union emerge, about the time that the reformation hits. In this way, the Order would be really challeneged. Having not completed its mission, suddenly it is presented with a unified adversary, just as its key allies desert. Then it gets a Civil War. Have fun.


Scotland

Remains unchanged.


Norway

Should remain a tier-2 player, but needs to have events and more colour to make it an interesting nation to play. While the ai might rarely be able to acheive a fully-independent state, it needs to be made both a more difficult target and a more significant entitly if it survive to the Reformation. Norway would then not be a presumed-protestant country. In fact, depending on the status of Brittany, Burgundy, the Order and other almost-always-catholics, it might chose to buck the northern trend and remain Catholic to further solidify its independence.


Teutonic Order

Well designed. Certainly the most coherent of the north-east nations, in part because it's raison d'etre provides a compelling storyline. Does very well even as ai because it is a military order and has the tools to get the job done. I don't think anyone sees a lot of change occuring here.

So, that's my offering.

 

[unmerged(34993)]

Kalmar The Union currently begins the game in a strong position, surrounded by weak Norway, weak Finland and the Hansa who have a lot of potential enemies on other sides. Improvements in the Scottish ai (or if its player run) mean that it doesn't totally get its way in Norway, but it remains fairly easy pickings. And everybody picks on Finland, so that finding ai allies for wars there is pretty easy. This leaves the Hansa, who are economically a powerhouse, but everyone wants their CoTs and they can get set upon. There really isn't anything challenging for Kalmar, unless two of Hansa, Finalnd and Scotland are both player-run. Instead, let's say that the Union begins the game on shakey political ground. There has been a recent war with Finland that ended poorly with the loss of a province. Dissent from both Swedish and Danish aristicracy regarding the relative importance of the two groups in the Unions political system. And Union merchants eye the advantages the Hansa cities enjoy and see the Union currently failing their needs there. They don't get a decent military leader until (unless) the Dund Crisis triggers. However, it gets a very good monarch in about 1435 who mnages to strengthen the Union, assuming it survives until then. In this way, we create a sound basis for Hansa-Kalmar cooperation in the early years. Both of these 'nations' are in a difficult position politically, their sovreignty and cohesion in doubt. It could even be argued that we begin the game with Hansa and Kalmar in an alliance. With these historical assumptions we instead create a situation where Hansa and Kalmar are their own best friends at game start. I actually think this makes a Sund Crisis even more intriguing, not less.

I already stated my ideas in Kalmar topic but I will repeat.

UoK will start with no cores at all in Finland,no core in Estland, no cores in Norway. It will start in a very shakey time - civil war will soon erupt. Also Sund crisis and other badstuff happens. That will slow them down. They will face choice between pro-hansa, pro-sweden or pro-finish monarch line. Pro-hansa will be quite peacefull, attacking norway, proswedish will attack everything, pro finnishwill try to conver UoK to orthodoxy and later capture Finland. But finnish monacrh will surrended claims for Norway.

 

[Incompetent]

Sticking to the areas I know best:

4. The Russian areas

Currently mostly fodder for the Teutonic Order.

They do get to form an independent Boyar League, and the TO isn't the only power with eyes on Russia - Ukraine and Finland can do well there as well. But you're right - mostly a pawn in wider power struggles. I think this is because we emphatically don't want to recreate Muscovy. But Novgorod is quite different to the rest of Russia...

5. Ukraine

Ukraine suffers from too many directions to expand in and doesn't necessarily handle any of it well. That's partly an ai issue that needs eventually to be improved. But it also lacks an event structure to handle its relationships with Byzantium, Hungary and the TO (well, partly). It is currently mostly built around beating up the Horde.

Beating up the Horde is fine at the start, the problem is Ukraine lacks purpose afterwards. The 3-path plan for internal development that I outlined in the Ukraine thread could also extend to or arise from expansion priorities, viz:
Hordish: Strong eastward focus, not just the Corridor but also as a rival to the Uzbeks in Central Asia (maybe even conversion to Islam, which would certainly cement such a choice), but also chaotic expansion in other directions (most warlike path)
Aristocratic: Russian focus, limited eastward expansion later (they'd reach the Corridor, but they wouldn't try to absorb large numbers of Central Asian provinces)
Democratic: Limited expansion, but would try to incorporate Georgia (as this Ukraine has some naval/trade ambitions)

Finland

I suggest that Finland begins the game as a strong(er) nation, recent victors over the Union and with a strong political tie to Norway. Possibly even in an alliance with Norway and Scotland, but one that will soon be tested. While it begins the game with an excellent monarch, he dies in 1440 and then it experiences a more difficult period. Finland needs to begin with a lot of positive relations with Brittany, Scotland and other potential ai-aggressors who want to teach its orthodox people lessons they don't want to know. Finland's direction will still be very uncertain, as it is physically boxed in. It's survivial will depend upon the emergence of a stronger Novgorod.

This will be essential if we make only minor changes elsewhere, to give Finland a chance as a major.

Novgorod

Whether this is the name or something else, Incompetant suggests that perhaps we look at a more stable country that can exist in the Russian lands. Not Russia. It would have Russian culture, but would never get al those cores and the endless supply of quality leaders.

This is actually a more major diversion from what we have at the moment. If Russia is a pawn, Novgorod is doubly so: three powers get claims on it, two of which can get Russian culture, and at least one of which can assimilate it to their culture. If we treat Novgorod as a 'cast-iron' major it makes a lot of TO events in particular obsolete or outdated. What I'd suggest is we start Novgorod as a modest-sized country (say 3 provinces, including a COT in Novgorod), and if it dies it can fade away as it does now, but if it lives and expands it can become a major, perhaps even eclipsing Finland.

Finland+Novgorod

This is very interesting, as it's hard to say who would have the upper hand in such a union. I see many ways this could come about, each resulting in different political systems, internal policies etc for the united state:

- Finland expands into Russia (perhaps as 'defender of Orthodoxy' vs the TO), and engulfs Novgorod, but retains its Finnish character, with Novgorodians taking on Finnish characteristics.
- Finland expands far into Russia but gets progressively Russified as a country. After all, Russians would likely outnumber Finns by some margin. This could eventually lead to the capital moving to Russia or at least Karelia, swapping primary cultures, and changing name.
- Novgorod expands, Finland contracts and they end up of similar stature, before forming an Orthodox Union for mutual protection. This would initially be a union of equals with lots of power still held in both capitals, but later it could go either way (Russocentrism being more likely IMO).
- Novgorod does really well, Finland does really badly and the former picks up the remnants of the latter. Novgorod now has finnic culture and tries to 'recover' the lands lost to Kalmar, but they may have to accept a partition of what was Finland. But it's possible OTOH that Novgorod manages to regain Finland while losing Russia, and as a result Novgorod ends up as a predominately Finnish country
- Finland and Novgorod fight each other, one of them wins decisively, and much later manages to integrate the other culture.

As such I think we have a few possible several-core countries name-wise in the region, each of which has one or more different natures (manifesting eg in whether it's a kingdom/republic/federation), though some of these can't exist at once:

Finland = 'just Finland'; or a 'King of Finns, Czar of Russians' deal that is more Finnish than Russian

Novgorod = 'just Novgorod'; a Novgorod-dominated Russian republic; or a Novgorod which has picked up the pieces in Finland

Boyar League = Aristocratic, reactionary state formed either with TO backing (Grey), as a reaction to Teutonic rule, or by/against a Ukraine which has taken over Russia but grown estranged from it (eg by converting to Islam). Mostly acts as a neutral buffer, lacking the internal cohesion and ambition to expand, and usually excludes Novgorod (in this line of history Novgorod generally gets integrated into the TO). Could evolve back into Novgorod or into the Orthodox Union though if there's a bourgeois takeover or union with Finland, respectively.

Orthodox Union = Union of equals between Finland and a Russian state/states; or a Finland which has taken over most of Russia and become quite Russian as a result. This is a serious power, and corresponds to a very successful Finland under the current setup.

Of course, Novgorod needn't become queen of the Russian minors, especially if it's swallowed by the TO; but it's better if it is, as it lets us tell a very different story politically from Muscovy.

Scotland

Remains unchanged.

But for its involvement in Norway, Scotland is peripheral to the Northeastern Europe region (which is quite separate, Scotland aside, from the British Isles, which form Northwestern Europe). Scotland would like Norway, but they can prosper without it.

Norway

My Scottish Reformation events assume that the Norwegians stay Catholic in their rites, but are flexible on the matter of papal supremacy. This means they can accept a moderate Scottish Church which did left the old rites alone, but not a radical one.

Teutonic Order...

There are still things I'm unhapy about with the TO, but I would like to keep most of what I've done already. One thing which attracted me to the TO in Abe 1 is that they really weren't like any vanilla power - the most you can say is that they lie across the vanilla powers of Poland and Russia. In particular, I wouldn't like them to be shunted too far south and/or pushed off the coast by the Hansa/Finland/Kalmar, as they'd end up as just a militaristic version of Poland.

 

[MattyG]

These are some excellent points and ideas.

I spoke with mikl on the phone just after he red my posting and he has some nice hansa-based additions.

I wasn't trying to 'take over' anything, just to present a story to work from, some ideas to know around.

Freiksenet's ideas will work very well and are fully compatible - it would seem - with ideas about an better Finland.

I am glad you liked the ideas for a Finland+[Russian-culture-state] union. It would be great if we could eventual code ALL of the possibilites you delve into, as they all make sense. For the Orthodox Union idea we could model it on the Polish-Lithuanian union. Not the vanilla butchering of it, but the real thing. Two separate states with a common monarch, but where either one could (in theory) break from the union.

Matty

 

[unmerged(30761)]

Novgorod has had trans ural settlements in the time of absorbtion onto russia at the end of 1400s. Perhaps expanding on this they could go for Siberia and then the corridor and then paciic north east. while ukraine retains the central part and southern part of the corridor.

This woudl enable trading with Japan and Manchu and woudl develop a northen Silk Sled Road.I know im stretching it but it woudl be the only christian power to have the pacific coast and baltic coast all to itself. I am not proposing the northern passage although we coudl go for early global warming due to faster natural causes

 

[MattyG]

Novgorod has had trans ural settlements in the time of absorbtion onto russia at the end of 1400s. Perhaps expanding on this they could go for Siberia and then the corridor and then paciic north east. while ukraine retains the central part and southern part of the corridor.

This woudl enable trading with Japan and Manchu and woudl develop a northen Silk Sled Road.I know im stretching it but it woudl be the only christian power to have the pacific coast and baltic coast all to itself. I am not proposing the northern passage although we coudl go for early global warming due to faster natural causes

Erm ....

 

[Incompetent]

Novgorod has had trans ural settlements in the time of absorbtion onto russia at the end of 1400s. Perhaps expanding on this they could go for Siberia and then the corridor and then paciic north east. while ukraine retains the central part and southern part of the corridor.

This woudl enable trading with Japan and Manchu and woudl develop a northen Silk Sled Road.I know im stretching it but it woudl be the only christian power to have the pacific coast and baltic coast all to itself. I am not proposing the northern passage although we coudl go for early global warming due to faster natural causes

There isn't any practical way of doing this with the current map, at least not giving Novgorod a land connection to Siberia. Also, having distant colonies as part of Novgorod could cause problems. What we could do is make a Russian Orthodox country in the appropriate area consisting of a few TPs and colonies, and make this a vassal to Novgorod. I don't know how much this would actually contribute to the wider game, though.

 

[TheArchduke]

I already stated my ideas in Kalmar topic but I will repeat.

UoK will start with no cores at all in Finland,no core in Estland, no cores in Norway. It will start in a very shakey time - civil war will soon erupt. Also Sund crisis and other badstuff happens. That will slow them down. They will face choice between pro-hansa, pro-sweden or pro-finish monarch line. Pro-hansa will be quite peacefull, attacking norway, proswedish will attack everything, pro finnishwill try to conver UoK to orthodoxy and later capture Finland. But finnish monacrh will surrended claims for Norway.

A forehand warning. In my experience the UoK tends to underperform, may it be MP as well as SP. I am unsure if a civil war at the start would be such a good idea.

 

[MattyG]

A forehand warning. In my experience the UoK tends to underperform, may it be MP as well as SP. I am unsure if a civil war at the start would be such a good idea.

Yes, good point, at least for the AI. Players can work through that and make deals. And if the 'prize' at the end of the war is sweet enough it can make up for it.

But one does need to remember the 'multiplier' effect in all games like this. Assests gained earlier are wirth more than those gained later. Money builds more money etc. So, if you are harmstrung in the first 40 years while everyone else is doubling their income and going up in techs, it can really put you behind the 8 Ball. So, the compensation would have to be very sweet, with an excellent monarch and a very nice goodie event if you survive.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

1. Kalmar vrs Hansa

Currently they start continue and end at loggerheads and we want to create possibilities for them to cooperate..

Anything which foster conflict or collaboration bewteen nighbours is a great thing. But any future idea should preferably be for the 17th Century, because the 15th is already pretty full, and the 16th is dominated by the Reformation, so it would be nice to have some events for 1600 onwards, a trditionally vacant era in Aberration/Interregnum

Novgorod

Whether this is the name or something else, Incompetant suggests that perhaps we look at a more stable country that can exist in the Russian lands. Not Russia. It would have Russian culture, but would never get al those cores and the endless supply of quality leaders.

Currently a Hansa core, there is an event in 1574 in the Hansa file in which under action_b (and the likely player choice...) the old and powerful Pleskow dynasty get rejected in favour of a doomed federated parliament.

They get so pissed off they remove them selves to their ancestral home of Novgorod, and there are some heavy revolts.

Perhaps this could be a birth for that nation, should it exist?

 

[yourworstnightm]

My storyline for Finland, which i wrote in the pre 1419 storyline thread would be a finnish monarch, which has for a long time been a novgorodian vassal. When Novgorod collapsed into civil war and was taken over by Hansa supported merchants, the finnic prince declared finland a kingdom. he also declared himself grand prince of novgorod since he is married to tle last grand prince's sister. I wrote the storyline to explain finno- russic relations before 1419 and the finnic claim on novgorod. being closely associated with novgorod make sense for a Finland christianized from east.
Is there perhaps some good Novgorodian leaders which could be assigned to Finland. Most of the novgorodian nobility is probably settling to serve their new king. The problem is Finland in this scenario is a bitter enemy of the Hansa, and I would instead hope that Finland could start with good relations with the Kalmar union, another enemy of the Hansa, perhaps a RM in the start.

For a more stable Russian country, what about the grand principal of Vladimir. We could give them Vladimir, Vologda, Nizhgorod, Moskva and Arkhangelsk. Vladimir woúld in the beginning has to choose between a mongol friendly or non- friendly ploicy. Then if the mongols seem stronger they might have to accept finnish protections, especially when the ukrainan threat emrge. Vladimir could then if chose finnic friendly policy get the finnish dynasty in the 1500s and be annexed in the 1570s.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

My storyline for Finland, which i wrote in the pre 1419 storyline thread would be a finnish monarch, which has for a long time been a novgorodian vassal. When Novgorod collapsed into civil war and was taken over by Hansa supported merchants, the finnic prince declared finland a kingdom. he also declared himself grand prince of novgorod since he is married to tle last grand prince's sister. I wrote the storyline to explain finno- russic relations before 1419 and the finnic claim on novgorod. being closely associated with novgorod make sense for a Finland christianized from east.
Is there perhaps some good Novgorodian leaders which could be assigned to Finland. Most of the novgorodian nobility is probably settling to serve their new king. The problem is Finland in this scenario is a bitter enemy of the Hansa, and I would instead hope that Finland could start with good relations with the Kalmar union, another enemy of the Hansa, perhaps a RM in the start.

Bitter enemies? There are practicaly no files to indicate this. We should write some. Sounds like a great idea.

 

[unmerged(20077)]

In Abe 1, wasn't Novgorod part of the Hansa? If we don't need it for anything else, why not give Novgorod to Finland to make it less weak?

 

[unmerged(16159)]

In Abe 1, wasn't Novgorod part of the Hansa? If we don't need it for anything else, why not give Novgorod to Finland to make it less weak?

Novgorod is firmly a part of a number of event series in the Hansa file, and is pretty important to it's historical basis.

Also, as a result of discussions on a number of threads, Hansa is about to lose Holstein and Koln from it's starting mix.

So we need to find another way of making Finland stronger.

What about controlling some of the colonies is russia's far north? Or do they do that already?

 

[Incompetent]

Novgorod is firmly a part of a number of event series in the Hansa file, and is pretty important to it's historical basis.

Also, as a result of discussions on a number of threads, Hansa is about to lose Holstein and Koln from it's starting mix.

Ah. In that case, Novgorod is not likely to do most of the things I mentioned. But if it does leave the Hanseatic League...

So we need to find another way of making Finland stronger.

What about controlling some of the colonies is russia's far north? Or do they do that already?

Already done, not enough. We probably need to give Finland above-average leaders/monarchs and good DP sliders early on to help it out, as it wouldn't be plausible to push its tax/MP values up any higher.

 

[ForzaA]

Finland too weak?

...Then why do they usually end up somewhere near the black sea ? (last 3 or 4 games I played they were *the* dominant power in the region, and I didn't keep their enemies down or anything like that)

 

[Incompetent]

Finland too weak?

...Then why do they usually end up somewhere near the black sea ? (last 3 or 4 games I played they were *the* dominant power in the region, and I didn't keep their enemies down or anything like that)

Interesting... it all depends on how things play out in Russia I suppose, and certainly Finland can do well as it stands. I've never seen Finland do that well, though - did they DA Ukraine?

 

[unmerged(36449)]

Ah. In that case, Novgorod is not likely to do most of the things I mentioned. But if it does leave the Hanseatic League...



Already done, not enough. We probably need to give Finland above-average leaders/monarchs and good DP sliders early on to help it out, as it wouldn't be plausible to push its tax/MP values up any higher.

I have always considered Finland to be the least plausible of nations in the mod. There simply wasn't the manpower to sustain a viable state under any kind of pressure from a modestly aggressive neighbour.

Sure I could see them being Eastern orthodox... but a rival to Kalmar? Not so much.. Good generals will only get you so far when you are outnumbered 20 or more to 1. You might be able to hold off the first one, perhaps two invasions but there won't be a shot of standing off the third without some miraculous events intervening. And even then your nation is maimed for a handful of generations as it repopulates and rebuilds a vaporized economy.

 

[MattyG]

I have always considered Finland to be the least plausible of nations in the mod. There simply wasn't the manpower to sustain a viable state under any kind of pressure from a modestly aggressive neighbour.

Sure I could see them being Eastern orthodox... but a rival to Kalmar? Not so much.. Good generals will only get you so far when you are outnumbered 20 or more to 1. You might be able to hold off the first one, perhaps two invasions but there won't be a shot of standing off the third without some miraculous events intervening. And even then your nation is maimed for a handful of generations as it repopulates and rebuilds a vaporized economy.

Would a combined Finnish-Novgorod nation formed in the 1300s through astute royal marriage be a possibility? Both cultures, manpower and leadership, but a whole lot of revolts and rebellions if it ever gets to big and the individual cultures seek to be more independent.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Would a combined Finnish-Novgorod nation formed in the 1300s through astute royal marriage be a possibility? Both cultures, manpower and leadership, but a whole lot of revolts and rebellions if it ever gets to big and the individual cultures seek to be more independent.

Well, except that we already have Novgorod as part of the Hanseatic League, in a number of series of events, that make a historical and logical sense in our Interregnated world, and have existed for 6 months already. Novgorod is, as I have said before on this thread, pretty integral to the Hanseatic story, and since the League is about to lose Koln and Holstein, we are in danger of sending the League to minor status.

Which in itself might be ok, but I'd need my ego massaged a litle pretty soon thereafter.