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Mirza Khan

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Jan 11, 2010
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One of the things I was always least satisfied with about EU3 was how simplified demography is. Every province always has one culture, and one religion-period. If it changes religions or cultures, the change is always represented as instant-one day, everyone in (to pick a random example) Spanish Tangiers is Muslim, the next day, Spain's missionary succeeds and everyone is a Catholic. Then a couple centuries late, the province gets a culture shift-one day, everyone who lives there is an Arab, next day, everyone their is a Spaniard.

Now, I know this is meant to be an abstraction, but its still a ridiculously oversimplified one. Dei Gratia helps solve the problem somewhat-you have religious minorities that can affect things such as province revolt risk, converting a province takes several missionaries, each one of which makes the minority following your religion bigger until it becomes the majority, and even after that, there's a resentful minority clinging to the old religion that you have to deal with. To me at least, it makes the game feel much more realistic. (The Reformation, for example, doesn't result in everyone in a Catholic province instantly turning Protestant.) And of course, Victoria 2's POP system, which is natively built into the game and represents cultural as well as religious minorities, does a much better job.

Now, since EUIV won't have to deal with the rapidly industrializing economy that Vicky 2 does, and takes place in a time period where Average Joe Peasant had way less influence on his country's politics, I don't think it needs as much detail as Victoria 2 has. So, here's my idea:

-All the inhabitants of a province are divided up into broad social classes: Peasants, Merchants, Soldiers, and Aristocrats. The more Peasants a province has, the the higher its tax base and the more of its good (iron, furs, grain, whatever) it produces. Merchants determine how much trade income you get from a province. Soldiers, naturally, can be recruited into your army. (And brigades remain connected to the soldiers in the province they were recruited from. If those soldiers revolt, the brigade will defect to the rebels)

-Besides the amount of peasants, terrain and technology also determine a province's production income. The ratio of production income to peasants determines how rich the peasants of a particular province are. Poor peasants will want to leave for greener pastures.

-Also, provinces are divided up by culture and religion, and each person in a province has a culture, a religion and an occupation. So, for example, a Crusader state in Greece might have lots of Orthodox Greek peasants and lots of Catholic Italian Aristocrats. Now-and here's where this becomes important-the culture of your realm is determined by what your Aristocrats, (and to a lesser extent, merchants) are, not what the populace as a whole is. To take the above example, if you start EU3 as an Italian-cultured crusader state in Greece, its a no-brainer that you culture shift to Greek immediately. Under my system, you couldn't, (at least at first) because your Aristocrats are mostly Italian.

-Having people of non-state cultures and religions in your provinces produces a tax penalty (similar to the wrong-culture and wrong-religion penalties EU3 has), and these people will be, by default, unhappy and prone to revolt. Their prescense might also stir up people who belong to your state religion/culture as well. How this works depends on how you treat them (see below) and the situation-if, for example, a province has lots of state religion, state-culture peasants and wrong-religion, wrong-culture merchants, the peasants might start getting resentful at all these rich foreign infidels around them.

-You get sliders on how to treat cultural and religious minorities in your state. Setting these sliders towards the "tolerant" end lowers revolt risk among non-state cultures, but may make state-culture and state religion people resentful and your country less stable. You can run your country as a tolerant, multicultural place that attracts merchants from all across the world, but this drives up your revolt risk and stability costs, so it serves smaller nations (Italian and German city-states, the Dutch) better. Or on the contrary-you can clamp down on any non-state cultures and religions-but don't be suprised when no foreign merchants show up to trade.

-Culture groups exist, and cultures within your culture group are, by default, more tolerated than others. Accepted cultures exist as well-but you can only accept a culture by decision, and you can only take that decision if you've set your minority sliders towards the "tolerant" end.

-Relgious tolerance is a slider. Pushing it one way increases tolerance of the state religion and decreases tolerance of heretics and non-believers. Pushing it the other way does the opposite.

-If you do not want to try to tolerate non-state cultures, you have three routes:
1. Encourage them to emmigrate from your country. This gets rid of the non-state culture problem obviously, but on its own wrecks a province's economy and tax base (since there's no one there anymore).

2. Encourage people from the state culture/religion to immigrate to the province. They have to come from one of your other provinces, though, so this works better if you have a large empire to draw from. You can also encourage immigration from abroad, but this is much iffier, and depends a lot on how wealthy your province is.

3. For wrong-religion people, encourage religious conversion. Wrong-religion people always have some chance of converting to the state religion, but you can also take an "encourage religious conversion" provincial decision. This increases the rate at which people convert to your state religion, but also increases revolt risk among those who don't and makes them more likely to emmigrate.
 
Colonialism and Nomads:

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To colonize, you pay a large sum of gold to establish a settlement in an uncolonized province. You then have to attract people to settle it-this depends on how many people you have in your country, how rich or poor they are, and how desirable the colony is (what kind of terrain it has, what goods it makes, how large/aggressive the native population is). Paying more colonial maintenance also attacts settlers (since it represents your nation's investment in the colony). Once a colony attracts enough setters, it eventually becomes self-sustaining, but if a colony doesn't attract many setters at all, it will eventually fail.

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Nomads get a special "nomadic" occupation, which represents the unique lifestyle in most steppe nomad cultures. Nomads act like peasants, except that their population density is much lower, and you can recruit them into your cavalry in basically unlimited numbers. (Since most steppe nomads made their living raising animals, could handle horses, and were proficient with weapons.) Early on in the game, this gives steppe nomads the ability to raise much larger armies than most settled countries and their units start out superior to what most settled countries have. However, nomads need much more space than agricultural peasants (in game terms, the production-income to population ratio they like is much smaller, and their population grows much more slowly), so the actual population of them will always be much less. And settled country's technology advances much faster than nomads do. Thus, over the course of the game, the nomad's superiority is eroded.

Nomads and settlers live in different worlds. Nomads do not like to live in provinces populated by agricultural peasants-since it interferes with the vast pastureland their horses, cattle, and sheep need. If you are a nomadic country, your settler population is, basically, a giant tax farm-you can't recruit them into your army, and they're perennially unhappy about living in a nomad-ruled conquest state. Furthermore, your nomadic soldiers won't want to move into their provinces. You can attempt to "nomadify" settler provinces-encourage the setters and townsmen to leave, so that some of their farms and fields turn back into pastures for nomad's horses. What was formally a restive, wrong-culture province can turn into a stronghold of your culture-and on the other hand, its economy and tax base have been wrecked.

If a settled country captures a nomadic province, the nomads likewise be very restive, and prone to revolting. On the other hand, there's always much less of them than their are of your agricultural peasants, so the best strategy is to encourage your people to settle the province, much like a colony. Increasing the fort level in the province to protect from nomadic raids helps, as does paying maintenance.
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I would love to see minority populations represented instead of a single monolithic culture/religion for each region. This was the biggest feature I was looking forward to in MEIOU and I hope they add it in to EUIV
 
I certainly agree that EUIV needs to expand the mechanics of culture and religion in provinces, but even a simplified system like the one you proposed would eat up a ton of the development team's time that could have gone to other aspects of the game.

I'd much prefer being able to start at any date in the game (if possible) or having a huge variety of start dates than being forced to start at the very beginning because the team doesn't have time to research the exact populations of every province over the span of 300 years. If anything needs to be ported over from VicII, then it should be the pie charts showing the percentages of a culture/religion. It's a quick, easily readable image that tells you the player at a glance the ethnic/religious makeup of their land.
 
I don't find the Pop system necessary for EU3, simple culture/religion percentages will do fine. Pops are for real heavy socio-economics, which EU isn't.
 
I love the POP system in Victoria II, it's one of the main reasons I find it hard to get into EU3 after playing V2. Ideally I would love to see a system like the one you proposed, though I would be happy with percentages like others suggested. I just hope to god they get rid of the single religion/culture for everyone thats in EU3.
 
I certainly agree that EUIV needs to expand the mechanics of culture and religion in provinces, but even a simplified system like the one you proposed would eat up a ton of the development team's time that could have gone to other aspects of the game.

I'd much prefer being able to start at any date in the game (if possible) or having a huge variety of start dates than being forced to start at the very beginning because the team doesn't have time to research the exact populations of every province over the span of 300 years. If anything needs to be ported over from VicII, then it should be the pie charts showing the percentages of a culture/religion. It's a quick, easily readable image that tells you the player at a glance the ethnic/religious makeup of their land.

Well, I mostly wanted to represent the fact that different cultures/religions might occupy different social classes (see my example of the crusader states in Greece-Italian aristocrats ruling over native Greeks). Thinking about it, though, I'm wondering if those kind of situations couldn't be represented by country modifiers-especially since the idea was to represent why the real-life crusader states didn't "culture shift" to Greek in 1400. Perhaps some kind of "foreign rule" modifier you can get rid of via decisions/event chain, with similar things for the other situations I mentioned.
 
I agree with the OP that a simplified POP-like system would be a good addition for EU4. You wouldn't need a separate soldiers though since the vast majority of military soldiers in this time period were either peasant conscripts or transient mercenaries. A separate clergy POP type could be useful, but just the trinity of peasants, merchants and aristocrats would be fine as well.

I'd much prefer being able to start at any date in the game (if possible) or having a huge variety of start dates than being forced to start at the very beginning because the team doesn't have time to research the exact populations of every province over the span of 300 years. If anything needs to be ported over from VicII, then it should be the pie charts showing the percentages of a culture/religion. It's a quick, easily readable image that tells you the player at a glance the ethnic/religious makeup of their land.

The game already dynamically generates national armies and navies, rather than using scarce historical data, so the same approach could be taken to a social strata system like this. Just have it use some inputs such as technology level, geographical area, and sliders.
 
Let's put this to bed early. There will be no Victoria 2 POP system in EU4. The Victoria 2 POP database is huge undertaking to create in an era when countires did censuses, it is even harder when you don't have these. A POP database is also CPU intensive to use and a lot of work to code (increasing the odds of slow downs and bugs). So we would really need a pretty amazing reason to use one in EU4. We haven't thought up with one so we are not going to do it.
 
Let's put this to bed early. There will be no Victoria 2 POP system in EU4. The Victoria 2 POP database is huge undertaking to create in an era when countires did censuses, it is even harder when you don't have these. A POP database is also CPU intensive to use and a lot of work to code (increasing the odds of slow downs and bugs). So we would really need a pretty amazing reason to use one in EU4. We haven't thought up with one so we are not going to do it.
Well, I guess its too late but heres my thoughts. What people talk about here is more of a rome like pop system with few classes made in an autogenerated way. While computerintensive it's not straightaway comprable to vic.
 
Well, I guess its too late but heres my thoughts. What people talk about here is more of a rome like pop system with few classes made in an autogenerated way. While computerintensive it's not straightaway comprable to vic.

It is indeed too late here.
 
But can you reveal whether culture and religion will be handled in a more in-depth way than EU3? As mentioned above religions change suddenly and totally. Any plans for something else in EU4?
 
In this new game, still in alpha/pre-alpha whatever, I don't want my 1k pop province to be able to spawn 14k rebels, or else I will be disappoint.
 
So are you planning to have just one culture and religion per province?

Moreover, among the main features in the announcement, there is "decide the structure of your society"... It seems to imply something more than serfdom-freedom sliders, so have you something in mind for internal politics, despite the absence of Pops (such as a system similar to DW China)?
 
Let's put this to bed early. There will be no Victoria 2 POP system in EU4. The Victoria 2 POP database is huge undertaking to create in an era when countires did censuses, it is even harder when you don't have these. A POP database is also CPU intensive to use and a lot of work to code (increasing the odds of slow downs and bugs). So we would really need a pretty amazing reason to use one in EU4. We haven't thought up with one so we are not going to do it.

I don't think I'd like a POP system in Eu4 anyway. In V2, the POP system is part of a greater mechanic through which problems like unemployment and luxury needs are calculated. Having to worry about whether my POPs in this one province are getting enough luxury goods or whether they're going to promote/demote wouldn't feel like Europa Universalis to me. I don't understand why people ask you guys to make games that are just a cocktail of the features from other games. Let EU be EU, let CK be CK, and Vicky be Vicky. I don't personally see any reason why EU4 should be some twisted Frankenstein assembled from parts of other PI series.

With that said, I'd like it if culture was changed a little bit. I'd like it to be separated into ethnicity and language, perhaps. Assimilation in EU3 always made me feel a little weary because it's described as your people replacing another. Can't I spread my culture around without engaging in subtle ethnic genocide? :(
 
Let's put this to bed early. There will be no Victoria 2 POP system in EU4. The Victoria 2 POP database is huge undertaking to create in an era when countires did censuses, it is even harder when you don't have these. A POP database is also CPU intensive to use and a lot of work to code (increasing the odds of slow downs and bugs). So we would really need a pretty amazing reason to use one in EU4. We haven't thought up with one so we are not going to do it.

Have to say I'm glad. I think Pops would be out of place in EU4.
 
I've always thought of Pops as a solely Victoria 2 era feature, I personally don't think there is much reason or need for them to be in EU4 especially considering the resources they require and thankfully the Devs agree.