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A way to have SU in '36scens without it being overpowered

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unmerged(39405)

unmerged(39405)

Corporal
Feb 5, 2005
26
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As the title stated this is a one way to have a human SU in '36 scens. As we all know a human SU can build up an massive inf army and by '40 its unstoppable and makes the game kinda pointless yet theres a lot of ppl who wanna play SU in MP games, including yours truly, so i came up with this (though im not sure if this has already been suggested by someone else, so i'm sry if this seems like i'm trying to take the credit for it). SU would only be allowed to build a specific number of units in a pre-determined time period. Shall we say during years 1936-39. The number of units could be like 250 or something. This way the Germs still have a chance of actually surviving from the war with SU and it also makes the SU player think his moves rather than just steamrolling over europe. After SU's time in the chains is over it would be allowed to build units as the player in control of SU sees fit.

I'm sure that there are those who think that this is a horrible idea and they might be right but i just thought that this option should be presented.

Thoughts...
 
Well if thats the case maybe the Germans have built too many nice aeroplanes and ships instead of tanks and men. Will let you know shortly as I am soviets in a MP game at the moment. Are you talking about 4, 6 or more player game?
 
You are missing the main problem: the USSR has too much IC too early in the 1936 scenario. In good old HoI1 this was handled nicely with a high Soviet CG demand, unfortunately this is gone in HoI2. Why not just give them a big fat reduction in IC during peace?

If you simply limit the amount of Soviet divisions to some number (250 or whatever) they will simply build a huge tank force, and as soon as the war starts they will start pumping out those huge serials of infantry.
 
IMO SOV should be forced to improve the industry (implement the 5 year plan) not get it all handed to them in 1936. Them having a big and nice army in 36 is historical but they should have problems upgrading it (with focus on industrial improvement) and leadeing it (with leader purged). The latter is taken care of as it works now.
 
Yea I realise that my suggestion aint the perfect solution but atleast it could be done. We cant really change the amount of IC SU has in the start of '36 or add some kinda peace modifier to it.

That what could be 250div limit could be specified. Shall we say 200inf, 20armor and 30other divs like motorized or garrisons?!

This is propably a huge hell no for those who r gonna play SU in MP games that have this rule but it would be in the intress fair game.
 
Aldo said:
and leadeing it (with leader purged). The latter is taken care of as it works now.
Click to expand...

No it isn't, because any halfway intelligent Soviet player is going to decline the purge. 10% dissent is a very small price to pay to save all those leaders. The dissent will be gone before the end of 38 and you'll have a ton of cash to show for it. Why Purge?
 
Colonel Warden said:
Why should the SU player sit through 4-5 years of being told that he can't do anything much? FYI, the 39 scenario gives the SU 175 divs and they are mostly 1918 quality. Just start in 39 and you'll have better balance and less wasted time. The 36 scenario is for SP play and is quite unsuitable for MP.

Andrew
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Yes, we all know that 39 is superior. But why do you refuse to accept that a lot of players want to play 36? Do you not realize how obnoxious your insistence on continually jumping into threads about 36 to proselytize for the 39 scenario is? If Rodolf wanted to play 39, he would. If he wants to find a way to make the 36 better because he wants to play the 36 scenario, telling him to play 39 doesn't contribute anything. Why can't you just play what you prefer and leave people alone, allow them to play what they prefer? Nobody is going to hell for playing the "wrong" scenario.
 
HerrGeneral said:
Nobody is going to hell for playing the "wrong" scenario.
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I spent more time than I should during Easter hanging out in Valkyrie Net. I saw and participated in 36 game after 36 game - none of them good. So, I'm afraid that playing 36 is going to hell. I've been there and wish to spare other players the same experience.

Andrew
 
i suport Andrew (warden) :) he just said that u shoud atleast TRY to play 39 in MP bcs as i gues many of those who very like 36 campaing in mp never tryed 39.. give it a try... play for 1 year and then say wich is better:p
 
Well I never said that I didnt like '39scen or that havent never tried it. To be honest i've propably played more '39scens than '36. I would imagine that the ratio is like 70/30 or 60/40.. And i've played both in MP many times. I havent even said that I prefer '36 over '39scen just that I like to play it even though blablabla...

and btw it seems that we have wonderet a bit off topic but its not a big deal for me. It was just an idea nothing more.

And one more thing. When I asked for comments I asked them about the "Limits to SU thing" not about "36 or 39" which scen is better?
 
HerrGeneral said:
No it isn't, because any halfway intelligent Soviet player is going to decline the purge. 10% dissent is a very small price to pay to save all those leaders. The dissent will be gone before the end of 38 and you'll have a ton of cash to show for it. Why Purge?
Click to expand...

Good point ! ! The only thing I would like to add is that the HSR (Stony Road) and the CORE crew (among other valuable modding people) are working on fixing these issues.

I have been visiting their various sites - the amount of research that these guys are putting into this effort is brilliant - for e.g. the CORE team are going into the archives and dragging out all the USSR Lend Lease data -- they plan to mod this into the game with events that add realism, balance and choice into the overall gameplay.

I recommend checking their sites out. On the Lend Lease issue alone this historical data shows just how much the USSR depended upon western assistance to prosecute the war in the east (especially the logistic stuff like studebaker trucks)

Conclusion: Limiting USSR human player actions will hopefully be a short-term fix.

Cheers
 
Quick and dirty fix would be to just reduce Russia's starting IC in '36 significantly. They already get a big head start in sheer numbers of units. With a significantly reduced IC base they'd have to choose to either build up their IC and have less units to fight with early in the war or build/upgrade units and have a large initial army but not much ability to build more or upgrade.

Isn't the script that moves Russia's industry to their interior bugged as well to significantly increase Russia's IC?
 
Lets face it every country which is played by a human player is overpowered when started in 1936. You can build what you want and set yourself up for war. Its not unusual for Italy to have a lot more divisions than they had. The USA can have at least 18 CV the japs can have many more at time of war.The Germans can have 100 subs time of war or a dozen naval bombers, carriers etc...So its not only the USSR which is overpowered. If the Germans build correctly they can put up a good fight in Russia then get beat :) If the Russians have a lot of infantry or tanks its hard to see them all upgraded to the highest level till at least the first 2 years of the war. More than enough time for the Germans to put up a good fight. When the German player builds carriers, Subs, V1, ships, lots of planes how can you say that the Russians are overpowered. Get someone to play Germany and build a force solely for the attack on Russia and the Russians are in big trouble. Usually I find the German players spends too much time on techs they dont need for Russia. A German player that build 4 carriers which take nearly 2 years to build in series has cost themselves at least 20 infantry divisions.
The 1939 scenario is good to play for a game but the Axis are limited offensivley to what they could do historically.
Lets wait until a few more games are played in multiplayer before making conclusions. After all we have had the game for 4 months in our group and have only reached the Russian war once as it takes a lot of hours to get that far.
 
I'm not just if I'm the Minority here, but as the USSR I always build at least 120ish IC worth of Industry to begin with. For possible the first two years. I allocated a minor portion to first repairing and then upgrading my armies. Generally I expand a bit, using massed force to push where I need too. Costly, but it works.

It also means that I have about 48IC Extra when I head into 1938. At about 5 or 4.5ish IC a piece, and about 4-6 a Year that means I could potentially produce about 54 Div's in on year, just with my EXCESS IC. That's not including any annexed, taken, or gained in that time. Starting with a large army, means you rarely need a MASSIVE build up, just enough of one to keep you on top. Besides, if you really wanted too, you can research those land doctrines, and get dual Hawk, which further reduces Cost and Time!

Edit: Which on that note, I've never played as a MP USSR (Doing my Virgin run right now) and so we'll see how this works for me. :rolleyes:
 
HerrGeneral said:
No it isn't, because any halfway intelligent Soviet player is going to decline the purge. 10% dissent is a very small price to pay to save all those leaders. The dissent will be gone before the end of 38 and you'll have a ton of cash to show for it. Why Purge?
Click to expand...

I've tried both methods, purge and no purge .... in the long run it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference which option you choose.

Someone should make a MP mod : (
 
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Colonel Warden said:
I spent more time than I should during Easter hanging out in Valkyrie Net. I saw and participated in 36 game after 36 game - none of them good. So, I'm afraid that playing 36 is going to hell. I've been there and wish to spare other players the same experience.

Andrew
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Sorry to hear that, Andrew. I saw you about, frequently, on VN. Those games that you did join you tended to leave very quickly ; )

Besides, I can't blame you for not chatting much on VN given the non-stop drivel but it might be worthwhile revisiting nowadays or hooking up with some others who are prepared to try and balance the game a bit better. There are some good 36 games going on at the moment, three-four player semi-series, including human USSR players. It's not all bad.
 
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