stnylan said:
Let's see what Duke ends up with. after all he got 4 sons alive, 10 grand sons and 5 grand-grand sons.
CSK said:
I'm going to play through eu2 too...
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Let's see what Duke ends up with. after all he got 4 sons alive, 10 grand sons and 5 grand-grand sons.
I'm going to play through eu2 too...
Meetings at Dole, April 1396 – October 1397 A.D.
Main Participants
Duke Edouard II de Bar, born 1336
Sons of Duke:
Count Guillaume b. 1356
Count Philippe b. 1366
Count Alain b. 1374
Bruno b.1380
Henri b. 1381
Grandsons of Duke:
Count Josselin b. 1375
Count Amedee b. 1374
Count Eustache b. 1376
Count Louis b. 1387
Vassals of Duke:
Count Dietrich von Habsburg of Aargau
Countess Adeleide de Bourbon
Count Alphonse de Neuchatel
Other pressure groups and delegations in and around Dole:
Wife of Duke Edouard – Countess Gisela von Friedenthal of Artois.
Brother of Duke Edouard – Gaucher de Bar b. 1340
Delegation of Holy Roman Empire
Delegations of Kings of France & England,
Delegations from Duchy of Savoie & Upper Lorraine
Delegates of Kings of Aragon & Sicily
Delegate from Republic of Genoa
Delegate of Holy See
Several lesser nobles of the realm of Duke Edouard.
Delegates & delegations from several counties and duchies of France and Holy Roman Empire.
Few examples of negotiation goals:
Duke Edouard wants to make sure that his realm passes on intact and strong to his son or grandson. Preferably to either of his favourite sons - Bruno or Henri. He also wants to make sure that no succession war is sparked when he will leave the earthly world. There have been some rumours that Grand alliance would be forming against Burgundy. Duke wants to prevent this alliance. He also wants to make it clear finally that his son Pierre should not be considered as a legitimate child.
Countess Josselin de Bar, Counts Guillaume de Bar & Amedee de Bar:
Each of these counts wants to make sure that salic primogeniture line leads to him.
Counts Louis de Bar, Philippe de Bar & Alain de Bar
These counts just want to make sure that they can keep their current counties and maybe achieve something else in the Meetings.
Countess Gisela von Friedenthal, Bruno de Bar & Henri de Bar
Countess Gisela wants to make sure that her sons will not be neglected in the Dole Meetings and either of two will be future Duke of Burgundy.
Outside powers: Holy Roman Emperor, Kings of France & England and so on
The goals of outside powers are always clear. They just want to make
1) Burgundy as weak as possible,
2) stop its aggressive and successful expansion,
3) no other power will gain too much at others expense
4) Burgundian affairs won't spark internal problems in their own realm
5) get as much power inside Burgundy as possible
First few months goes arguing over etiquette, seating arragements and scheduling the Dole Meetings. Most notable thing agreed before new year 1397 is agreement that:
No-one born after september 15. 1396 can be considered claimant in the Dole Meetings. (only exception being current pregnancy of Etiennette d'Evreux - wife of Count Eustache de Bar, in case of child being male.) After this brake through the list of claimants is still long - 7 counts & 15 other names.
Will continue later today...
Main Participants
Duke Edouard II de Bar, born 1336
Sons of Duke:
Count Guillaume b. 1356
Count Philippe b. 1366
Count Alain b. 1374
Bruno b.1380
Henri b. 1381
Grandsons of Duke:
Count Josselin b. 1375
Count Amedee b. 1374
Count Eustache b. 1376
Count Louis b. 1387
Vassals of Duke:
Count Dietrich von Habsburg of Aargau
Countess Adeleide de Bourbon
Count Alphonse de Neuchatel
Other pressure groups and delegations in and around Dole:
Wife of Duke Edouard – Countess Gisela von Friedenthal of Artois.
Brother of Duke Edouard – Gaucher de Bar b. 1340
Delegation of Holy Roman Empire
Delegations of Kings of France & England,
Delegations from Duchy of Savoie & Upper Lorraine
Delegates of Kings of Aragon & Sicily
Delegate from Republic of Genoa
Delegate of Holy See
Several lesser nobles of the realm of Duke Edouard.
Delegates & delegations from several counties and duchies of France and Holy Roman Empire.
Few examples of negotiation goals:
Duke Edouard wants to make sure that his realm passes on intact and strong to his son or grandson. Preferably to either of his favourite sons - Bruno or Henri. He also wants to make sure that no succession war is sparked when he will leave the earthly world. There have been some rumours that Grand alliance would be forming against Burgundy. Duke wants to prevent this alliance. He also wants to make it clear finally that his son Pierre should not be considered as a legitimate child.
Countess Josselin de Bar, Counts Guillaume de Bar & Amedee de Bar:
Each of these counts wants to make sure that salic primogeniture line leads to him.
Counts Louis de Bar, Philippe de Bar & Alain de Bar
These counts just want to make sure that they can keep their current counties and maybe achieve something else in the Meetings.
Countess Gisela von Friedenthal, Bruno de Bar & Henri de Bar
Countess Gisela wants to make sure that her sons will not be neglected in the Dole Meetings and either of two will be future Duke of Burgundy.
Outside powers: Holy Roman Emperor, Kings of France & England and so on
The goals of outside powers are always clear. They just want to make
1) Burgundy as weak as possible,
2) stop its aggressive and successful expansion,
3) no other power will gain too much at others expense
4) Burgundian affairs won't spark internal problems in their own realm
5) get as much power inside Burgundy as possible
First few months goes arguing over etiquette, seating arragements and scheduling the Dole Meetings. Most notable thing agreed before new year 1397 is agreement that:
No-one born after september 15. 1396 can be considered claimant in the Dole Meetings. (only exception being current pregnancy of Etiennette d'Evreux - wife of Count Eustache de Bar, in case of child being male.) After this brake through the list of claimants is still long - 7 counts & 15 other names.
Will continue later today...
The Agreement in Dole
During 19 months that the Dole Meetings took several things was agreed upon. Basic agreements:
Legend:
blue line - current areas of Grand Duchy which will be surrendered to France 1419-26
green line - areas that will be temporarily given to Grand Duke
light blue line - area that will be permanently given to Grand Duke (Lower course of river Aisne
During 19 months that the Dole Meetings took several things was agreed upon. Basic agreements:
Legend:
blue line - current areas of Grand Duchy which will be surrendered to France 1419-26
green line - areas that will be temporarily given to Grand Duke
light blue line - area that will be permanently given to Grand Duke (Lower course of river Aisne
Last edited:
1398:
Februay: Only few months after Dole Meetings are concluded this happens:
Someone murdered Grand Duke Edouard and elective college have voted for Count Bruno de Bar as new Grand Duke of Burgundy.
New Grand Duke Bruno de Bar of Burgundy.
March: The assassin hits again! Burgundy is really weaker now than before Dole Meetings.
New Grand Duke Josselin de Bar of Burgundy. He has 3 sons Patrizio (born 1393), Raimond (b. 1396) & Vincentello (b.1398)
Dole Meetings led to all kind of agreements both marital and diplomatical and even to military pacts.
One of these arrangements was Grand Duke Bruno's son - 2years old - Adolf de Bar as Governor of Republic of Genoa. Adolf wasn't even born when Grand Duke bruno was assasinated, but now he has legitimate claim to two electoral count titles. Grand Duke Josselin has made it clear to everybody that he won't be handing those titles easily. This may lead to war in the future if genovese side decides to use force. Atleast votes of those titles will be in the hand of Adolf in case of new electoral college is needed. This will effectively put Republic of Genoa as a holder of 5 votes. Governor Adolf is also future heir of Countess Giselas electoral count title. tricky.
1401:
After Grand Duke Josselin effectively took control of Lyons and made count of Forez his vassal France declared war on Grand Duke of Burgundy. War ragest on for two years - when Burgundy was near to lose the war - outside power - Kingdom of Aragon intervened and after it fighting quickly ended. This war was good example how the central position of Grand Duchy of Burgundy benifits it. If the outside powers won't find perfect way to share burgundian realm then they won't let anyone get anything. The war ended to the nominal victory of the Burgundian side.
Februay: Only few months after Dole Meetings are concluded this happens:
Someone murdered Grand Duke Edouard and elective college have voted for Count Bruno de Bar as new Grand Duke of Burgundy.
New Grand Duke Bruno de Bar of Burgundy.
March: The assassin hits again! Burgundy is really weaker now than before Dole Meetings.
New Grand Duke Josselin de Bar of Burgundy. He has 3 sons Patrizio (born 1393), Raimond (b. 1396) & Vincentello (b.1398)
Dole Meetings led to all kind of agreements both marital and diplomatical and even to military pacts.
One of these arrangements was Grand Duke Bruno's son - 2years old - Adolf de Bar as Governor of Republic of Genoa. Adolf wasn't even born when Grand Duke bruno was assasinated, but now he has legitimate claim to two electoral count titles. Grand Duke Josselin has made it clear to everybody that he won't be handing those titles easily. This may lead to war in the future if genovese side decides to use force. Atleast votes of those titles will be in the hand of Adolf in case of new electoral college is needed. This will effectively put Republic of Genoa as a holder of 5 votes. Governor Adolf is also future heir of Countess Giselas electoral count title. tricky.
1401:
After Grand Duke Josselin effectively took control of Lyons and made count of Forez his vassal France declared war on Grand Duke of Burgundy. War ragest on for two years - when Burgundy was near to lose the war - outside power - Kingdom of Aragon intervened and after it fighting quickly ended. This war was good example how the central position of Grand Duchy of Burgundy benifits it. If the outside powers won't find perfect way to share burgundian realm then they won't let anyone get anything. The war ended to the nominal victory of the Burgundian side.
That Genua could prove problematic later on. It's actually quite big and has rich lands.
That central position is precarious though. Should Burgundy ever manage to unite its enemies...
1402:
Grand Duke Josselin de Bar gets fourth son - Guilhèm.
1409:
Marriage arragement is finally happening 11 years after the deal was made. In order to secure Count Guillaume's (and his sons') 6 votes Grand Duke Josselin was forced to promise his then 4 years old daughter Richenda to Count Guillaume.
Another marriage arragement made by Grand Duke Josselin is the marriage between himself and mother of Governor Adolf de Bar of Genoa - Ursula of Ansbach (former wife of late Grand Duke Bruno de Bar). Maybe this will cool down Burgundian-Genovese succession crisis.
France is again in war against Aragon. After securing his back against Republic of Genoa Gran Duke Josselin makes his move to get Ile-de-France. As agreed in Dole Meetings Grand Duke has strong claim on that county.
France is trigged in to declaring war against Grand Duke after Josselin made formal demand to hand out county of Ile-de-France. After this follows a good example of how strong agreement over Dole Meetings still is. Grand alliance against French is true. And only since they didn't agree on the Meetings.
In the process of war also Bishop of Köln tries to leave Grand Duke's realm. But since Bishop doesn't get outside help it's easy to revoke his title. Grand Duke decides to keep Köln as part of his personal lands.
1410
January: After the rise of tension outside and inside Burgundy Grand Duke Josselin is forced to arrange wedding between his oldest son and Duchess of Savoie. Bride is 63 years old and the groom just 16.
September: War is over. Ile-de-France is now part of Grand Duke's realm.
1413:
Kingdom of England declares war on Kingdom of Sicily. English are asking Grand Duke Josselin to join in and he does since he wants to send clear message to France that English-Burgundian alliance is strong. War also makes it possible to acquire some extra land for Grand Duke.
1414:
War against Sicily is over and Grand Duke ended up with county of Forcalquier.
1415:
Grand Duke's wife Ursula of Ansbach dies. She gave Grand Duke two daughters but no son. Thought Grand Duke has four sons from the previous marriage.
1418:
Countess Gisela dies and her electoral count title goes to Governor Adolf de Bar. Grand Duke is also forced to give Adolf the actual county of Artois. So now it's 7 votes for genovese faction. Map showing Grand Duchy of Burgundy and Republic of Genoa (red):
tomorrow:
Grand Duke Josselin de Bar gets fourth son - Guilhèm.
1409:
Marriage arragement is finally happening 11 years after the deal was made. In order to secure Count Guillaume's (and his sons') 6 votes Grand Duke Josselin was forced to promise his then 4 years old daughter Richenda to Count Guillaume.
Another marriage arragement made by Grand Duke Josselin is the marriage between himself and mother of Governor Adolf de Bar of Genoa - Ursula of Ansbach (former wife of late Grand Duke Bruno de Bar). Maybe this will cool down Burgundian-Genovese succession crisis.
France is again in war against Aragon. After securing his back against Republic of Genoa Gran Duke Josselin makes his move to get Ile-de-France. As agreed in Dole Meetings Grand Duke has strong claim on that county.
France is trigged in to declaring war against Grand Duke after Josselin made formal demand to hand out county of Ile-de-France. After this follows a good example of how strong agreement over Dole Meetings still is. Grand alliance against French is true. And only since they didn't agree on the Meetings.
In the process of war also Bishop of Köln tries to leave Grand Duke's realm. But since Bishop doesn't get outside help it's easy to revoke his title. Grand Duke decides to keep Köln as part of his personal lands.
1410
January: After the rise of tension outside and inside Burgundy Grand Duke Josselin is forced to arrange wedding between his oldest son and Duchess of Savoie. Bride is 63 years old and the groom just 16.
September: War is over. Ile-de-France is now part of Grand Duke's realm.
1413:
Kingdom of England declares war on Kingdom of Sicily. English are asking Grand Duke Josselin to join in and he does since he wants to send clear message to France that English-Burgundian alliance is strong. War also makes it possible to acquire some extra land for Grand Duke.
1414:
War against Sicily is over and Grand Duke ended up with county of Forcalquier.
1415:
Grand Duke's wife Ursula of Ansbach dies. She gave Grand Duke two daughters but no son. Thought Grand Duke has four sons from the previous marriage.
1418:
Countess Gisela dies and her electoral count title goes to Governor Adolf de Bar. Grand Duke is also forced to give Adolf the actual county of Artois. So now it's 7 votes for genovese faction. Map showing Grand Duchy of Burgundy and Republic of Genoa (red):
tomorrow:
What converter have you used? If you haven't already, may I propose you use the superior converter?
Savoy got more than I thought she would while Genua is rather small. Also shouldn't you have got the Lyonnais?
Savoy got more than I thought she would while Genua is rather small. Also shouldn't you have got the Lyonnais?
I tried superior converter but that didn't work properly with my save game. (don't know is it my computer or just the save, didn't feel like putting too much effort in to it.)CSK said:
So I just dropped something over AGCEEP grand campaign to get the game running.
Giving Genoa more than those two provinces would have been too much and giving Savoy less than 2 provinces would be too less.CSK said:
Lyonnais was part of the Dole Meetings agreement.
What a pretty patchwork France is!
Just to make sure you realise, you really ought to continue this AAR in the EU-AAR subfora, rather than in this thread though now that you have converted. I very much look forward to see what will happen.
Just to make sure you realise, you really ought to continue this AAR in the EU-AAR subfora, rather than in this thread though now that you have converted. I very much look forward to see what will happen.
stnylan said:
I have to start new thread in EU2 AAR forum? okay, I'll do that.
Grand Duchy of Burgundy continues tomorrow at:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=269329
This is my first real effort at a CK AAR and I was pleasantly surprised. I will follow your new work for certain. Good work. 