? about sinking ships in port

[Zerovoltz]

I was reading the thread about Argentina/Nat Spain events and it was brought up that CORE sought to leave as much as possible to the player and only do through events what a player or AI was unable to realisticaly simulate. This made me think about the Pearl Harbor event in wich the Japanese Navy gets a surprise attack bonuse etc..but that in the event you don't get any ships to actually sink...wich I think is great. My question then is this....and excuse me if I am ignorant of this aspect of the game....Is it possible to sink ships sitting in a base/harobor using aircraft?

At pearl harbor, it was the aircraft wich came in and sunk ships, damaged ships etc wich were sitting in port.

Second question is...Did germany ever make any effort to sink british warships using air power based in France?

Thanks in advance for your answers. ....and thanks to all the CORE people..I have been silently enjoying your efforts ever since Core for Hoi 1 came out...Thanks alot for making these games wonderful experiences.

 

[Epaminondas]

There were many Luftwaffe attacks on the Channel ports as part of the lead up to Seelowe and some substantial damage was inflicted on light forces stationed there.

There were some early raids against Scapa Flow originating from Norway, and I believe KG 200 attacked Scapa later in the war. All without worthwhile result however.

Also, in the closing months of the war a major operation was planned against Scapa using Mistel aircraft. I don't think it actually got off the ground though.

 

[Zerovoltz]

Well...for gameplay purposes concerning the pearl harbor event....in real life, japan, using the element of surprise, was able to sink american ships in port...I understand the event in the game to dramaitcally increase japans ability to attack by surprise, but to my knowledge, it is not possible to sink a ship sitting in a port (Or is it? this is my question)....

The whole premise for Japans surprise attack at Pearl Harbor was that the Japanese navy wanted these ships to be in port because they were easy targets here as opposed to trying to find them and surprise them at sea, where at least if nothing else, they could manuever and have a fighting chance.

With this in mind, It would be more realistic if you couldn't just leave fleets out in the ocean indeffinetly....if there were a way to force them into port preiodically for refuel and resupply, that would be better....and along with that...having them in port would possibly make them vulnerable unless a vigilant player protected said ports with air superiority or other ships at sea etc....

 

[unmerged(50487)]

Well...for gameplay purposes concerning the pearl harbor event....in real life, japan, using the element of surprise, was able to sink american ships in port...I understand the event in the game to dramaitcally increase japans ability to attack by surprise, but to my knowledge, it is not possible to sink a ship sitting in a port (Or is it? this is my question)....

The whole premise for Japans surprise attack at Pearl Harbor was that the Japanese navy wanted these ships to be in port because they were easy targets here as opposed to trying to find them and surprise them at sea, where at least if nothing else, they could manuever and have a fighting chance.

With this in mind, It would be more realistic if you couldn't just leave fleets out in the ocean indeffinetly....if there were a way to force them into port preiodically for refuel and resupply, that would be better....and along with that...having them in port would possibly make them vulnerable unless a vigilant player protected said ports with air superiority or other ships at sea etc....

The Pearl Harbor event can be modified by adding:

command = {type = damage_division which = Battleship value = "USS Nevada" where = 50 }

This damages the Nevada by 50%. Adding a negative value will repair/strengthen the division.

 

[McNaughton]

That makes a lot of sense if the Nevada is sitting in port at Portsmouth... It has been CORE's perogative to not model any single battle, it is up to the player/AI to model battles.

 

[Epaminondas]

Which is fair enough, but what I think zero is saying is that the system makes it impossible to model this type of battle. Don't know enough about Port Strike myself to respond sensibly.

 

[unmerged(50487)]

That makes a lot of sense if the Nevada is sitting in port at Portsmouth... It has been CORE's perogative to not model any single battle, it is up to the player/AI to model battles.

That was for the pearl harbor event. So far as I can tell, ships may only be damaged in port by event code. A seperate event could be fired to detect and damage ships at Pearl. So if the Nevada's out having Tea and Crumpets, she won't be touched.

Conversation's moot though, ships can be sunk in harbor... at least with carrier strikes.

 

[Ghost_dk]

both carrier and reg. aircraft can make port strikes.

 

[MateDow]

...My question then is this....and excuse me if I am ignorant of this aspect of the game

Not a probelm

....Is it possible to sink ships sitting in a base/harobor using aircraft?

As someone mentioned earlier, it is possible to make port strikes using carrier-based and land-based aircraft.

At pearl harbor, it was the aircraft wich came in and sunk ships, damaged ships etc wich were sitting in port.

Second question is...Did germany ever make any effort to sink british warships using air power based in France?

There was a determined effort to sink British shipping in the Channel. Part of this was an attempt to get the RAF out over the Channel where they could be engaged, but part of it was a effort to interdict British shipping. This of course included warships escorting Channel convoys.

In terms of actually making a specific effort to get British warships, not that I am aware of. They were always willing to destroy British warships that came within range, but I have not heard of any operations which were specifically targeted at warships.

Thanks in advance for your answers. ....and thanks to all the CORE people..I have been silently enjoying your efforts ever since Core for Hoi 1 came out...Thanks alot for making these games wonderful experiences.

Not a problem. MDow

 

[Zerovoltz]

Thanks for the answers....I guess my next question is....in the game would it be a possiblity to perform a pearl harbor type attack? Specifically, could a player bring up 4 carriers for example, do a port strike and expect to inflict a signifigant amount of damage on someone? So far as I can tell performing "port strikes" does only damage to a port, and none to ships. (again, I am not that experienced in this area, so let me know if I am wrong.)

And while here, I will touch on the navy being able to stay at sea forever. Why is it possible in the game to keep any naval force at sea indefinetly? This is unrealistic. Is there some way to make a naval unit find a freindly port for fuel, supplies, etc? Just seems too easy to put your boats in the water and let them stay there without giving thought to having to refuel etc. Perhaps this would be to much of a burden on a player, but I wouldn't mind seeing it.

 

[JRaup]

Thanks for the answers....I guess my next question is....in the game would it be a possiblity to perform a pearl harbor type attack? Specifically, could a player bring up 4 carriers for example, do a port strike and expect to inflict a signifigant amount of damage on someone? So far as I can tell performing "port strikes" does only damage to a port, and none to ships. (again, I am not that experienced in this area, so let me know if I am wrong.)

Nope, port strikes will damage ships in port. I forget the exact ammount of damage, but all ships in port should suffer some damage, those with lower AA defense ratings will get hit harder IIRC.

And while here, I will touch on the navy being able to stay at sea forever. Why is it possible in the game to keep any naval force at sea indefinetly? This is unrealistic. Is there some way to make a naval unit find a freindly port for fuel, supplies, etc? Just seems too easy to put your boats in the water and let them stay there without giving thought to having to refuel etc. Perhaps this would be to much of a burden on a player, but I wouldn't mind seeing it.

It's a bit of an abstraction. What you don;t see on the map are the "fleet trains" and at sea replenishments (MP, fuel, ammo, etc). Even so, the ability to stay at sea "forever" is a bit much. However, there isn't anything we can do about it, as this is all part of the exe code, which we don;t modify.

 

[unmerged(50487)]

Thanks for the answers....I guess my next question is....in the game would it be a possiblity to perform a pearl harbor type attack? Specifically, could a player bring up 4 carriers for example, do a port strike and expect to inflict a signifigant amount of damage on someone? So far as I can tell performing "port strikes" does only damage to a port, and none to ships. (again, I am not that experienced in this area, so let me know if I am wrong.)

And while here, I will touch on the navy being able to stay at sea forever. Why is it possible in the game to keep any naval force at sea indefinetly? This is unrealistic. Is there some way to make a naval unit find a freindly port for fuel, supplies, etc? Just seems too easy to put your boats in the water and let them stay there without giving thought to having to refuel etc. Perhaps this would be to much of a burden on a player, but I wouldn't mind seeing it.

You could use the division_in_province trigger to damage specific ships if they reside in the particular province at the time the event fires. You will need to know the division id's of each division in turn. This info is located in the country's .inc file, under each scenario. The entry's look like:

division = { id = { type = 14800 id = 99 } name = "USS New Mexico" type = battleship model = 1 } #
division = { id = { type = 14800 id = 100 } name = "USS Mississippi" type = battleship model = 1 } #
division = { id = { type = 14800 id = 101 } name = "USS Idaho" type = battleship model = 1 } #

So your trigger code might look like:

event = {
	id = xxxx
	random = no
	country = JAP

	name = "EVT_xxxx_NAME"
	desc = "EVT_xxxx_DESC"
	style = 0
        picture = ""

	trigger = {
		division_in_province =  { id = { type = 14800 id = 99 } province = 663 }				
 
               }
                      date = { day = 7 month = december year = 1941 }
                      command = { type = damage_division which = 14800  value = 99 where = 50}
}

This will trigger an event that will fire on Dec 7, '41. And if the USS New Mexico is in province 663 (Pearl Harbor) it will be damaged by 50%. Make sure you study up on events, and make those headers correct for a correct for a new event. I did the hard part... your turn.

 

[MateDow]

You could use the division_in_province trigger to damage specific ships if they reside in the particular province at the time the event fires. You will need to know the division id's of each division in turn. This info is located in the country's .inc file, under each scenario. The entry's look like...

...So your trigger code might look like...

...This will trigger an event that will fire on Dec 7, '41. And if the USS New Mexico is in province 663 (Pearl Harbor) it will be damaged by 50%. Make sure you study up on events, and make those headers correct for a correct for a new event. I did the hard part... your turn.

OK, here is where it gets really complex...

I have to make triggers which check if the Japaneses carriers are in a location where the attack might take place, make sure that there aren't aircraft in the provence to be attacked, make sure that the New Mexico isn't in the Atlantic like she is supposed to be...

Once you have resolved those triggers, you have to write an event for each ship in Pearl Harbor because you wouldn't want to damage the Maryland if she was rotated to the Atlantic to replace the New Mexico.

How do you handle the possibility that the carriers might be in port that sunday morning? The Enterprise could have caught better weather and returned to port 10 hours earlier, or she could have been caught by one of the submarines lurking of the mouth of the harbor.

This is the problem with trying to script battles using events. There are too many variables which have to be accounted for. The odds of the set-up being identical to historical reality are almost infinite.

Now, there might be a way to "train" an AI to make a port strike on Pearl Harbor, but that is much more complex. MDow

 

[unmerged(50487)]

OK, here is where it gets really complex...

I have to make triggers which check if the Japaneses carriers are in a location where the attack might take place, make sure that there aren't aircraft in the provence to be attacked, make sure that the New Mexico isn't in the Atlantic like she is supposed to be...

Once you have resolved those triggers, you have to write an event for each ship in Pearl Harbor because you wouldn't want to damage the Maryland if she was rotated to the Atlantic to replace the New Mexico.

How do you handle the possibility that the carriers might be in port that sunday morning? The Enterprise could have caught better weather and returned to port 10 hours earlier, or she could have been caught by one of the submarines lurking of the mouth of the harbor.

This is the problem with trying to script battles using events. There are too many variables which have to be accounted for. The odds of the set-up being identical to historical reality are almost infinite.

Now, there might be a way to "train" an AI to make a port strike on Pearl Harbor, but that is much more complex. MDow

Getting the ai to perform specific attacks like clockwork is harder than giving a fully awake crocodile a colonoscopy.

Ok... don't worry about your carriers are. You get a list of all the ships, and write seperate events for all of them. Because... if you place them all in one trigger, the trigger will return false if any of them is out of pearl, and the attack won't happen. Mind you, with the following code:

command = { type = trigger which = xxxx}#

One line for each ship event, you may fire ALL of the events simultaneously. This will have the effect of testing each ship seperately, at the same time, and damaging them or not.

Like I said... I did the hard part... typing is easy...

 

[baylox]

Getting the ai to perform specific attacks like clockwork is harder than giving a fully awake crocodile a colonoscopy.

Ok... don't worry about your carriers are. You get a list of all the ships, and write seperate events for all of them. Because... if you place them all in one trigger, the trigger will return false if any of them is out of pearl, and the attack won't happen. Mind you, with the following code:

command = { type = trigger which = xxxx}#

One line for each ship event, you may fire ALL of the events simultaneously. This will have the effect of testing each ship seperately, at the same time, and damaging them or not.

Like I said... I did the hard part... typing is easy...

You could only include ships in this type of events that are in the starting OOB since we don't know what unique identifiers new units get during the game. That means all naval ships added to the construction queue after the game has started remains untouchable (except through a random command, which is useless in this case). This makes it all pointless - why should only the original set of units be affected and not those built during the game? That wouldn't be logical at all.

EDIT: Also, a US player, once things are heating up with the Japanese, may also just move his entire fleet out of Pearl and into the surrounding sea zone and take the slightly increased fuel/supply cost (if any when they're just sitting there?) until after the event has fired with no effect. The US can afford those supplies and that oil just to get into action quicker, if they'd like.

 

[unmerged(50487)]

You could only include ships in this type of events that are in the starting OOB since we don't know what unique identifiers new units get during the game. That means all naval ships added to the construction queue after the game has started remains untouchable (except through a random command, which is useless in this case). This makes it all pointless - why should only the original set of units be affected and not those built during the game? That wouldn't be logical at all.

EDIT: Also, a US player, once things are heating up with the Japanese, may also just move his entire fleet out of Pearl and into the surrounding sea zone and take the slightly increased fuel/supply cost (if any when they're just sitting there?) until after the event has fired with no effect. The US can afford those supplies and that oil just to get into action quicker, if they'd like.

Yes, but since the only Battleships that would be effected are already on the roster, it would be no problem for them. A problem does remain for the Enterprise in GC36, but I'm helping... not writing!!! (yeah a worthwhile copout, eh? )

This is true of a human player. The AI would take it's drubbing though.

 

[baylox]

But why shouldn't any carriers or battleships you've built that you've stationed in Pearl Harbor risk damage if other unit do?

 

[JRaup]

Honestly, the idea of scritpting the damaging of ships at Pearl isn't going to happen. Here's why:

1. It goes against CORE policy as to scripting battles
2. In terms of events, it's far too many
3. In game benefit is limited at best
4. Too many variables to account for. This is the scripting killer IMO.