Add Setting to Disable "Unify Culture Group" and "Form New Culture"

[AntarcticRanger]

Why would you need to? Why should you be able to?

Dutch, Flemish, Manx, arguably Austrian, Polish, and that's just the European cultures.

There very much needs to be a mechanic to create colonial cultures, how else are you going to properly simulate the Spanish colonial empire and the discontent between the white American born and the Iberian born populations? And that's just Spain, by 1800 Dutch, British, and French colonial cultures have also formed (Brazil confounds me).

It makes sense to dislike the present culture creation mechanics, they aren't that good and don't even cover important culture formations like all the New World African cultures, but there very much needs to be some kind of culture creation.

 

[Knarraldin]

Dutch, Flemish, Manx, arguably Austrian, Polish, and that's just the European cultures.

There very much needs to be a mechanic to create colonial cultures, how else are you going to properly simulate the Spanish colonial empire and the discontent between the white American born and the Iberian born populations? And that's just Spain, by 1800 Dutch, British, and French colonial cultures have also formed (Brazil confides me).

It makes sense to dislike the present culture creation mechanics, they aren't that good and don't even cover important culture formations like all the New World African cultures, but there very much needs to be some kind of culture creation.

Dutch, Flemish, Austrian, and Polish cultures are already in the game, you don't need to be able to create new cultures to represent the cultures that are already there. As for the descendants of colonies, that's really the best argument for it, you could represent them with new cultures, but I'd also argue that these cultures largely came to be defined after EU5 had already ended. After all, there were towns all over the US that still spoke majority French or German until around the 1920s, and especially the introduction and standardization of national public school curriculum. If there should be any kind of new culture formation at all, it should probably be an 18th century mechanic, at which point we need to ask the question if it's even useful to implement given the short period of time you'll have it.

 

[AntarcticRanger]

After all, there were towns all over the US that still spoke majority French or German until around the 1920s

How in the world is that an argument against late 18th colonial cultures. German is the native language of 850k USA citizens in the present. Louisiana's French and French Creole population is a very prominent colonial culture in and of itself that would not be remotely well simulated by a 1337 culture.

Austrian

You really think it's a good idea to have Bavaria and Austria have the exact same culture all the way though 1837?

Dutch, Flemish

Was in not discussed in the very first Tinto Map that it would make sense to have these be separate cultures by like, 1500? They very much were different cultures by the end of the game, and religion is not enough of a difference considering that the Netherlands (alone) was about a third Catholic by the end of the game.

but I'd also argue that these cultures largely came to be defined after EU5 had already ended.

The most important impact of colonial culturals was to motivate colonial wars of independence, since in game terms said colonial cultures weren't the primary culture of the colonial governments (like how the Pale's primary culture in 1337 is English, not Anglo-Irish. Also Anglo-Irish is a colonial culture.) And said wars of independence all happened well before the end date.

at which point we need to ask the question if it's even useful to implement given the short period of time you'll have it.

I'd rather like the last 5th of the game to have content, thanks. That's actually the part of the game I am looking forward to the most, so I want things like English Dissatent religion(s), steamships, and railroads. (I'm pretty sure they have mentioned railroads existing in game as the best road you can make, not sure offhand thought)

 

[Mathematician]

You really think it's a good idea to have Bavaria and Austria have the exact same culture all the way though 1837?

Yes. Bavarian and Austrian are about the same thing. There is nothing absurd in having them being the same culture the entire game.

Was in not discussed in the very first Tinto Map that it would make sense to have these be separate cultures by like, 1500? They very much were different cultures by the end of the game, and religion is not enough of a difference considering that the Netherlands (alone) was about a third Catholic by the end of the game.

If Flemish and Dutch are different enough to warrant being separate in the game, then Brazil should have at least 40 different cultures by the end date.

 

[Ispil]

I have no qualms over the specific condition of shared language/culture group, but all the rest of it (button-presses and the like) seem much too arcade-y.

You should need to work for it.

 

[Ivashanko]

Game rules are a crutch, they shouldn't be the first solution for something you don't like, especially here. You should just argue this mechanic shouldn't exist in principle.

I will stand up and make that argument then!

These mechanics simply should not exist. They're ahistoric nonsense.

 

[AntarcticRanger]

I will stand up and make that argument then!

These mechanics simply should not exist. They're ahistoric nonsense.

What culture do you want the Caribbean halfway through the game to be then. Or the white population of Spanish America as a whole, who was discriminated against in favor of those born in Spain (note: I am aware this is a simplification of how the Spanish Empire worked. If you have a better idea on how to implement it I'm all ears.)

 

[juanfegonzalezce]

I think the ability to merge cultures is a way to represent birth nationalities around the 18th century

Well, it does a pretty poor job at representing that, tbh. Most Bavarians, Catalans, Sicilians, etc. have kept their culture and language alive up to the present, even if they also consider themselves to be German, Spanish or Italian alongside their "regional" identity.

 

[juanfegonzalezce]

What culture do you want the Caribbean halfway through the game to be then. Or the white population of Spanish America as a whole, who was discriminated against in favor of those born in Spain (note: I am aware this is a simplification of how the Spanish Empire worked. If you have a better idea on how to implement it I'm all ears.)

Well, New World cultures should be formable out of migrant European colonist pops and surviving Native pops to form new identities. To answer your question, pre-established historical New World cultures should form out of diverting and mixing European, Native and African pops in the Americas.

As an example, an in-game Spanish Cuba around 1650 should have Cuban culture pops who formed out of locations were Spanish pops (Castilian, Andalusian, Catalan, etc.) and native Taíno pops interacted. This Cuban culture would represent Cubans of Spanish descend (both "white" and mestizo) and have especial Estate mechanics including mestizo and criollo Estates, especially considering that you could legally "become white" in colonial Spanish America if you were a wealthy mestizo.

There should also be an Afro-Cuban culture (formed from African pops in locations in Cuba) as a culture and some Taíno pops still surviving in some areas were the control of the State is not as present.

This would also then apply to other regions in Spanish America.

Finally, Spanish American colonial governments should have a 90% chance of their rulers (viceroys and governors) being of an European Spanish Culture (Castilian, Galician, Andalusian, etc.), to further create tension between a, for instance, Castilian governor ruling over a culturaly Cuban and Afro-Cuban colonial subject.

In the case of the Americas throughout the scope of the game, we really ought to be seeing a lot of culture divergence and formations and nothing like the "unify culture" mechanic that this post is all about. The Americas must have a unique culture system, based on who colonizes which region, imho.

 

[NarcomancerPL]

Well, it does a pretty poor job at representing that, tbh. Most Bavarians, Catalans, Sicilians, etc. have kept their culture and language alive up to the present, even if they also consider themselves to be German, Spanish or Italian alongside their "regional" identity.

I think you live in different alternate society. I have yet to meet a Catalan who consider themself Spanish. There are significant movements for independent Bavaria and splitting Italy on, at least, 2 parts as well.

 

[juanfegonzalezce]

I think you live in different alternate society. I have yet to meet a Catalan who consider themself Spanish. There are significant movements for independent Bavaria and splitting Italy on, at least, 2 parts as well.

What I meant was that, when Germany, Italy and Spain unified, their regional cultures did not dissappear at all, on the contrary, they kept on existing to the present day, despite government efforts to erradicate them and form a "unified", perhaps even artificial, German, Italian or Spanish identity.

The various contemporary independence movements in these countries are an evident proof of the continued existance of such regional identities, as you mention. However, there are also many Catalans, Bavarians and Sicilians who still identify as Spanish, German or Italian, but have kept their own regional cultures pretty much intact. It's not as black and white as one might think, it just happens that some groups are louder than others when expressing their political beliefs.

Due to these complexities and perhaps overlapping identities, on one hand, or exclusive identities on the other, randomly unifying a "culture group" in 10 years due a the decision of a ruler is a completely ahistorical mechanic and there should be an option for it to be turned off.

 

[Mathematician]

What culture do you want the Caribbean halfway through the game to be then. Or the white population of Spanish America as a whole, who was discriminated against in favor of those born in Spain (note: I am aware this is a simplification of how the Spanish Empire worked. If you have a better idea on how to implement it I'm all ears.)

What if I told you that the unified colonial cultures many in the community want to see emerging in colonial subjects did not truly exist before the 20th century? Shared national identities in places like Brazil are largely a modern fabrication, shaped by mass media and mandatory public education. While cultures did adapt to the New World, the idea of a unified identity emerging in a colony before the 20th century is unrealistic. Most people were illiterate, their main concern was what they were going to eat the next day, and they lived within small, sometimes isolated communities.

Let me give you an example from my own family. My paternal ancestors moved from the Rhineland in Germany to Brazil in 1836. They settled in a place that today is known as Picada Café (Kaffeeschneiss in the local dialect). My father's generation was the first to grow up speaking Portuguese as their main language. My grandfather spoke Hunsrückisch as his mother tongue, and my great-grandfather did not speak Portuguese at all. This was not unusual. Everyone in their small town spoke this German dialect. Most of the population in Brazil lived in rural areas and preserved their original cultures. People were living in their own small bubbles. Before the 20th century there was no TV, no radio, no public schools, government authority over those communities was weak or nonexistant. It was not possible to develep a shared national identity.

If you were Portuguese living in colonial Brazil you would likely have preserved most elements of your Portuguese heritage while developing a local variation that was distinct from those emerging in other regions of the colony. At that time, the only common thread across Brazil’s vast territory was the Portuguese language and the Portuguese culture. The Portuguese were the only colonizers to settle the entire territory, so it makes more sense to refer to the culture as Portuguese rather than Brazilian, a term that did not yet represent a defined culture. Portuguese language and culture provided a shared identity for the colony, while regional adaptations set it apart as they still do today.

 

[Ivashanko]

What culture do you want the Caribbean halfway through the game to be then. Or the white population of Spanish America as a whole, who was discriminated against in favor of those born in Spain (note: I am aware this is a simplification of how the Spanish Empire worked. If you have a better idea on how to implement it I'm all ears.)

Some mods for EU3 and 4 have colonial cultures that pop up at some point during the game that colonised pops start to flip to.

Why not just do that? It seems to work pretty well. Have every cultural group- and in some cases individual culture- have a short list of colonial cultures it can spawn.

 

[AntarcticRanger]

What if I told you that the unified colonial cultures many in the community want to see emerging in colonial subjects did not truly exist before the 20th century? Shared national identities in places like Brazil are largely a modern fabrication, shaped by mass media and mandatory public education. While cultures did adapt to the New World, the idea of a unified identity emerging in a colony before the 20th century is unrealistic. Most people were illiterate, their main concern was what they were going to eat the next day, and they lived within small, sometimes isolated communities.

Let me give you an example from my own family. My paternal ancestors moved from the Rhineland in Germany to Brazil in 1836. They settled in a place that today is known as Picada Café (Kaffeeschneiss in the local dialect). My father's generation was the first to grow up speaking Portuguese as their main language. My grandfather spoke Hunsrückisch as his mother tongue, and my great-grandfather did not speak Portuguese at all. This was not unusual. Everyone in their small town spoke this German dialect. Most of the population in Brazil lived in rural areas and preserved their original cultures. People were living in their own small bubbles. Before the 20th century there was no TV, no radio, no public schools, government authority over those communities was weak or nonexistant. It was not possible to develep a shared national identity.

If you were Portuguese living in colonial Brazil you would likely have preserved most elements of your Portuguese heritage while developing a local variation that was distinct from those emerging in other regions of the colony. At that time, the only common thread across Brazil’s vast territory was the Portuguese language and the Portuguese culture. The Portuguese were the only colonizers to settle the entire territory, so it makes more sense to refer to the culture as Portuguese rather than Brazilian, a term that did not yet represent a defined culture. Portuguese language and culture provided a shared identity for the colony, while regional adaptations set it apart as they still do today.

Brazil is a subject I know little about, I have no idea how to be simulate it. It's also pretty unique in how late it diverged from Portugal, and apparently in how fast it assimilated people. My maternal ancestors came from Norway to North Dakota for example, and despite living in the middle of nowhere all of their children were more familiar with English than Norwegian.

 

[ArVass]

I think these should be present, BUT definitely not happen instantaneously, maybe instead give some conversion bonus for the old cultures affected. However, I do not want to play a game where Polish, French, or Russian, do not exist as cultures.

 

[Mathematician]

Brazil is a subject I know little about, I have no idea how to be simulate it. It's also pretty unique in how late it diverged from Portugal, and apparently in how fast it assimilated people. My maternal ancestors came from Norway to North Dakota for example, and despite living in the middle of nowhere all of their children were more familiar with English than Norwegian.

I suppose your Norwegian ancestors settled in an area where English was the dominant language. If they had ended up in a Norwegian community, I doubt they would have fully assimilated before the twentieth century. Look at the Germans in Pennsylvania for example.

Assimilation when it happened was local, not national.

My grandmother's maiden name was "Oppelt", but her family spoke Venetian. I always found it strange that she had a German surname while the entire family spoke a Venetian dialect. After researching her family history, I discovered that the Oppelt family came from the Sudetenland region in Bohemia. However, they settled in a city in southern Brazil that is now called Caxias do Sul, which was largely Italian at the time. They eventually assimilated into the local culture.

 

[Mathematician]

Brazil is a subject I know little about, I have no idea how to be simulate it. It's also pretty unique in how late it diverged from Portugal

This is off-topic, but I think it’s an interesting subject. Brazilians didn’t really want independence from Portugal. There was never a major movement pushing for it. When the Portuguese royal family and court fled Napoleon and settled in the Colony of Brazil, they established themselves in Rio de Janeiro. Brazil was then elevated from colony to kingdom, forming a union with Portugal.

The royal family grew fond of life in Rio de Janeiro and recognized that Brazil’s economic potential far surpassed that of Portugal. So when the Napoleonic Wars ended, they didn’t immediately return to Lisbon. People began to assume they might stay, and that the new United Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil would be ruled from Rio de Janeiro. This upset the elites in Portugal, who revolted and demanded the king return to Portugal. The real issue was that they not only wanted the capital moved back to Lisbon, but also wanted Brazil reduced to colonial status again, something the royal family knew the elites in Brazil would not accept.

Eventually, Crown Prince Pedro declared Brazil’s independence and became Emperor of Brazil. He also briefly became King of Portugal later on, but abdicated in favor of his daughter, who inherited the Portuguese crown, while his son inherited the Empire of Brazil. I think this inheritance arrangement shows the royal family valued Brazil above Portugal. If the Portuguese elites hadn’t revolted, it’s likely that the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil, and the Algarves would have ended up being ruled from Rio de Janeiro.

In Brazilian history-related communities, including those focused on Paradox games, there is a surprisingly large number of monarchists. Among them, it is not uncommon to find people who regret Brazil’s independence from Portugal. Many believe that if Brazil and Portugal had remained united, this empire could have preserved the Portuguese colonial holdings and even expanded them. These individuals often view the Portuguese Empire in a positive light and tend to see the independence of Angola and other former Portuguese territories as unfortunate events that negatively affected the populations of those regions.

 

[AntarcticRanger]

This is off-topic, but I think it’s an interesting subject. Brazilians didn’t really want independence from Portugal. There was never a major movement pushing for it. When the Portuguese royal family and court fled Napoleon and settled in the Colony of Brazil, they established themselves in Rio de Janeiro. Brazil was then elevated from colony to kingdom, forming a union with Portugal.

As an outsider looking in, Brazil looks like a weird combo of the USA and Canada. The Canadian metaphor would be perfect if Dutch Brazil survived and became its own culture and if Brazil remained tied to Portugal.