Add UPA to Hearts of Iron IV

[Damn UA]

Dear Developers,


I hope this message finds you well. As a dedicated fan of Hearts of Iron IV, I truly admire the depth and detail you've put into the game. It’s an incredible experience that I, and many others, thoroughly enjoy.


I would like to suggest an idea that could further enhance the gameplay. Specifically, I believe incorporating mechanics related to the UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) and underground resistance movements would add a valuable historical dimension. This part of history deserves greater representation within the game.


While Hearts of Iron IV includes the Armia Krajowa (Home Army), the absence of the UPA feels like a missed opportunity, especially given their crucial role in Ukraine's fight for independence. Acknowledging the UPA and their contribution to the struggle for freedom would be significant for many players, especially those from Ukraine.


Additionally, it would be fascinating to see game mechanics allowing players to engage in underground resistance efforts, such as partisan raids, sabotage, and operations within enemy-held territory. This could bring a fresh and exciting element to the gameplay, while also highlighting the complexity and importance of resistance movements during that era.


I sincerely hope you will consider this suggestion and explore the possibility of integrating it into future updates.


Thank you for your time and for continuing to create such an engaging and immersive game.

 

[PK_AZ]

the absence of the UPA feels like a missed opportunity, especially given their crucial role in Ukraine's fight for independence. Acknowledging the UPA and their contribution to the struggle for freedom would be significant for many players, especially those from Ukraine.

UPA has history of massacring civilians. Considering current political situation, I think adding them to game is not good idea.

Additionally, it would be fascinating to see game mechanics allowing players to engage in underground resistance efforts, such as partisan raids, sabotage, and operations within enemy-held territory.

Resistance effort in question: 'send some guns to resistance' decision and two types of raids, because all other partisan activities are below map scale and therefore already integrated into occupation mechanics.

 

[Nephandus]

The UPA… the military arm of the OUN… the ones who collaborated with the German invaders for two years and had a rather… „colourful“ operational history… I would find it quite interesting how something like that would be implemented but given the history here, I somehow doubt that this will ever be implemented in the game

 

[vermicious knid]

I agree in general terms that the Ukraine's role is sort of ignored in HOI4. Their struggle for independence and their conflict with the Russians who dominated the USSR could be depicted in some way that doesn't run headlong into the various forbidden topics. Taking away Soviet cores on them at game start would be one way. Giving a country like Germany the options to build compliance in Ukraine distinct from the overall compliance on the USSR would be another. If that could be worked out it could be applied to other places where a nation has been unhappily swallowed by a bigger map blob.

Obviously the Germans failed to work with the Ukrainians and forbidden topic'd the Hell out of them but this is a game about doing things a little differently and seeing what happens. Someone helping/arming the Ukrainians is at least plausible.

 

[Damn UA]

UPA has history of massacring civilians. Considering current political situation, I think adding them to game is not good idea

Before making such claims, it is worth investigating this issue, especially when most of the world still takes information from Russian propaganda. And speaking generally, even when talking about the Soviet Union, people from Europe or America (the Western world) simply say "Russians", ignoring the fact that there were Ukrainians, Belarusians, Kazakhs and many other peoples.

Resistance effort in question: 'send some guns to resistance' decision and two types of raids, because all other partisan activities are below map scale and therefore already integrated into occupation mechanics.

I don't know exactly how to explain what I meant, but I would like to feel the process itself, not work it out in my imagination. Taking into account the UPA, they had a high level of organisation and equality among their personnel, so they all came to the training camps (which were mostly for the purpose of improving their physical condition), regardless of rank or wealth. I understand that it will be difficult, if not impossible, to organise something on a large scale.

 

[Damn UA]

The UPA… the military arm of the OUN… the ones who collaborated with the German invaders for two years and had a rather… „colourful“ operational history… I would find it quite interesting how something like that would be implemented but given the history here, I somehow doubt that this will ever be implemented in the game

It was mostly another part of the OUN that cooperated with Nazi Germany, namely the Melnykites. In turn, the UPA was created to fight the occupiers who were terrorising the Ukrainian people, and they fought on two fronts, with the Germans and the Muscovites. As for the cooperation with the German Reich, most of the time it really was, but they hoped that the German Reich would give them the opportunity to organise their own independent state, just to supply food for the German army, as soon as they realised that this would not happen, they no longer cooperated.

 

[Damn UA]

I agree in general terms that the Ukraine's role is sort of ignored in HOI4. Their stuggle for independence and their conflict with the Russians who dominated the USSR could be depicted in some way that doesn't run headlong into the various forbidden topics. Taking away Soviet cores on them at game start would be one way. Giving a country like Germany the options to build compliance in Ukraine distinct from the overall compliance on the USSR would be another. If that could be worked out it could be applied to other places where a nation has been unhappily swallowed by a bigger map blob.

Obviously the Germans failed to work with the Ukrainians and forbidden topic'd the Hell out of them but this is a game about doing things a little differently and seeing what happens. Someone helping/arming the Ukrainians is at least plausible.

In this way, I have often seen in the fashions of the German Reich something related to Ukraine and Belarus, the creation of so-called "Protectorates" rather than district commissariats. But I've hardly seen anything like that in the vanilla game, of course, maybe in the future something related to this will be added, because in the game the Soviet Union is mostly represented only as Russians.

 

[Damn UA]

The UPA… the military arm of the OUN… the ones who collaborated with the German invaders for two years and had a rather… „colourful“ operational history… I would find it quite interesting how something like that would be implemented but given the history here, I somehow doubt that this will ever be implemented in the game

And even if we talk about the cooperation of domestic organisations with any occupiers, this has often happened in history. The game features the blackshirts in the UK, and this is part of their people, because of them, they don't call all the British Nazis, do they? Judging another organisation by its part is quite unreasonable, in fact, how to judge people in this way

 

[Joshua Happytree]

Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia (Polish: rzeź wołyńsko-galicyjska, lit. 'Volhynian-Galician slaughter'; Ukrainian: Волинсько-Галицька трагедія, romanized: Volynsʹko-Halytsʹka trahediya, lit. 'Volhynian-Galician tragedy')[a] were carried out in German-occupied Poland by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA)

Lviv pogroms (1941) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The massacres were perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists (specifically, the OUN)

most of the world still takes information from Russian propaganda

1. I believe you can find information about Lviv massacre in Wiethenal Center information -- Jews were killed. As per Volyn massacre -- in Polish Institute of National Remembrance as Poles were killed this time. They're good sources IMHO unless you suggest both of them were somehow taken of by the kind of "propaganda" and not RL history you don't like.
2. People here do know the history, it's just RL history is not the kind you peddle around. @Nephandus @Secret Master pls, close the thread, IMHO it'll inevitable desintegrate into shouting match

 

[Damn UA]

Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lviv pogroms (1941) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1. I believe you can find information about Lviv massacre in Wiethenal Center, as per Volyn massacre -- in Polish Institute of National Remembrance. Unless you suggest it was somehow taken of by the kind of propaganda you don't like they're good sources IMHO.
2. People here do know the history, it's just RL history is not the kind you peddle around. @Nephandus @Secret Master pls, close the thread, IMHO it'll inevitable desintegrate into shouting match

If I'm not mistaken, this tragedy happened because of people's knowledge of the Soviet Union and the German Reich, which caused the conflict. Many Poles and many Ukrainians died in it, so it is wrong to say that only the UPA is to blame.

 

[Damn UA]

Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lviv pogroms (1941) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1. I believe you can find information about Lviv massacre in Wiethenal Center information -- Jews were killed. As per Volyn massacre -- in Polish Institute of National Remembrance as Poles were killed this time. They're good sources IMHO unless you suggest both of them were somehow taken of by the kind of "propaganda" and not RL history you don't like.
2. People here do know the history, it's just RL history is not the kind you peddle around. @Nephandus @Secret Master pls, close the thread, IMHO it'll inevitable desintegrate into shouting match

And more than that, the Polish and Ukrainian states are now talking about it, and researching the situation, Ukrainian presidents have apologised many times for this incident, which took place 70 years ago. At the moment, the Poles are the most helpful to Ukrainians, although the help of others should not be underestimated either.

 

[Damn UA]

Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lviv pogroms (1941) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1. I believe you can find information about Lviv massacre in Wiethenal Center information -- Jews were killed. As per Volyn massacre -- in Polish Institute of National Remembrance as Poles were killed this time. They're good sources IMHO unless you suggest both of them were somehow taken of by the kind of "propaganda" and not RL history you don't like.
2. People here do know the history, it's just RL history is not the kind you peddle around. @Nephandus @Secret Master pls, close the thread, IMHO it'll inevitable desintegrate into shouting match

I would say that the Poles also killed Ukrainians at that time, but that would be rather immoral, and living by the law of an eye for an eye is rather unreasonable. These are mistakes of the past that should remain in the past.
Thanks for your opinion anyway

 

[Damn UA]

Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lviv pogroms (1941) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1. I believe you can find information about Lviv massacre in Wiethenal Center information -- Jews were killed. As per Volyn massacre -- in Polish Institute of National Remembrance as Poles were killed this time. They're good sources IMHO unless you suggest both of them were somehow taken of by the kind of "propaganda" and not RL history you don't like.
2. People here do know the history, it's just RL history is not the kind you peddle around. @Nephandus @Secret Master pls, close the thread, IMHO it'll inevitable desintegrate into shouting match

So, I investigated this situation a little deeper, and Hitler began the Himmlerstat (Hitler's land) by destroying and evicting Poles from their homes, but to make it look like the Germans were to blame, they began to settle Ukrainians there. The regional army, which believed that Ukrainians had begun to seize Polish homes and villages, immediately acted, killing and expelling them from their homes. This became known to the UPA, and since neither the UPA nor the Home Army knew about Hitler's plans, they fought each other. The UPA could consider this incident as a threat to destroy the Ukrainian population, and they acted as defenders of this people.
Then the Soviet Union joined in and began to add more petrol to the fire, turning Poles against Ukrainians and vice versa.
Neither the Poles nor the Ukrainians are to blame for this tragedy, especially the units that defended their people and did not know about the plans of the Nazis or the Communists.
The plan itself was called The generalplan OST, if you want you can look it up and read it.
The rule of "divide and conquer" was used

 

[mohenti]

Their stuggle for independence and their conflict with the Russians who dominated the USSR could be depicted in some way that doesn't run headlong into the various forbidden topics.

There was no such conflict, nor could there be. Ukrainians are not separable from Russians in the cultural and ethnic sense: it is impossible to draw a clear line to separate the former from the latter.

In Soviet times, there was a struggle of nationalist groups (one of which the author of the topik speaks about) against the government, communists, and anyone else who got in their way; there was a party struggle; there was an ideological struggle. But for Ukrainians to fight with Russians en masse for independence? Independence of what from what?

 

[leastfire]

I hope this message finds you well

hmm yeah it's quite visible so it probably finds people to engage quite effectively^^

I am from poland and it's sad part of our history, so I may be biased.. but, in which place could it exist, if these territories are within USSR and a lot of nations included within it rarely are present on map? however, considering that for example NKVD exists in game (structure that also did a lot of atrocities in poland), I'm not sure what could be differences between including one and not including another. I am not very good in real life history though. I mainly play for military/strategy aspects, I like playing germany and defeating UK/USSR, that's it

 

[vermicious knid]

...considering that for example NKVD exists in game (structure that also did a lot of atrocities in poland), I'm not sure what could be differences between including one and not including another.

The frigging SS is in the game. I think it is pretty clear that Paradox's decision not to gamify atrocities definitely does not extend to excluding the organizations that carried them out.

 

[Secret Master]

We aren't discussing war crimes on this forum. It is explicitly against the rules.

Thread closed.