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FleetingRain

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Aug 2, 2014
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While West African exists in CKII and replaces Animist in West Africa upon using the CKII to EU4 converter, the religion has 0% chances of appearing in a vanilla game. This post is therefore a suggestion for implementation.

As a whole, West African peoples/nations had, how can I say, "local" religions. While there might be lots of similarities between them, all the religions were different enough to be considered singular to each of their people. So, you had a "Yoruba religion", an "Ashanti religion", and so on.

In fact, this is a generalization that can be applied to the whole Animist group (that's why it exists, after all), but the West Africans differ themselves due to not being unorganized natives, native americans nor random OPMs in SEA... nor Mutapa, but I feel they should be Shamanist anyway. This means that they already start incredibly close to the abrahamic religions (and under heavy influence from Islam) and with a not so backwards tribal organization. Their geographical proximity to each other also greatly helps making a "cohesive" religion for the purposes of the game, even if they would be seen as a "religion group" in the real world.

However, you can't implement it that easily, because there would be a truckload of local deities based on culture, and then you'd have to take other cultures converting (say, a Russian nation) into account. This would end up making the deities incredibly generic, and thus the religion would be too bland.


So here's a more straightforward idea:


All Animists in West Africa become West African (WA from now on), a polytheistic religion. While everybody has the same religion and thus uses ToTF, each deity would be locked to a region. Any ruler "born" in a region (that is, any ruler whose nation has its capital in a certain region) would have that deity as their personal one. Changing into another local deity would be possible, but only once per ruler and for a price (maybe prestige+legitimacy). However, it would only be possible if a) the region still has an Animist province, or maybe even if Animist is the dominant religion there; or b) the ruler moves its capital to the region.

An example: I'm playing as Benin, in the Lower Niger region. My deity is Yemoja (patron spirit of womanhood in Yoruba religion), which gives +1 Diplomatic Relation and +50% New Heir chance. I want to change to Tiurakh (god of wealth and property in Serer religion) for their 10% tax / 10% trade power modifiers. As Tiurakh's region, Senegambia, still has at least one WA province (alternatively, WA is the dominant religion there), I can change to it with no issues.

However, if I wanted to change to Timbuktu's deity, I would not be able to, as the region is 100% Sunni. I'd need to get one province (or most) to convert to WA, and only then I'd be able to choose their deity. But what would it be? No idea, they converted to Islam by 1300, we'd need some research on that. Either that, or we could use a deity from another close-by religion instead.

While Hindu's events focus on the meditation chains, WA would focus on diplomacy with other WA rulers (with the same deity or a different one) and with Sunni rulers with WA provinces in their realms. So there could be an event for temporary opinion boost, for diplomacy reputation, maybe one to help a Sunni friendly country with their WA locals, get in trouble with another WA ruler for different deities, get a Sunni ruler (even more) hostile to you for being a heathen, and so on. The deities themselves would influence the events and the options available, so that local diplomacy is more lively (livelier?) than the usual.


Something that *could* also be done, but I'm not too sure about, is having different deities giving unrest in parts of the realm. Say, if you control provinces in Lower Niger and Senegambia, choosing Yemoja would give a unrest modifier ("Different Deity"?) in your Senegambian provinces that would only disappear if you adopted Tiurakh instead, or either waited for Separatism in the region to disappear or had the provinces' cultures as Accepted (culture conversion being an option). And maybe, to make up for that, the local culture maluses could be lifted (so you'd trade +2 unrest, -33% tax and -33% manpower for, say, +4/+5 unrest instead).

But maybe this would add an unnecessary layer of complexity to the religion. I'm not sure.

"But what if I convert the whole Russian region to WA?" first off, Putin would expatriate you. Second, my idea is that the deities would be restricted to West Africa, that is, all regions in that part of the continent would have an exclusive deity, even the ones that start as Sunni in 1444 (that would make for a good 10 or so deities, that's more than enough). For other regions, there are four possibilities: 1) no deities whatsoever; 2) the game generates a random deity with random name and bonuses from a pre-made table; 3) the region randomly adopts a deity from West Africa; and 4) the region inherits your ruler's current religion. I particularly think 4 makes the most sense, but maybe 3 could be the most gameplay-friendly. It would really be up to the devs.


And finally, the bonuses.

-10% Culture Threshold
+5% discipline
+2% missionary strength (like most Pagans)

...Maybe that's a bit too strong. They could be cut in half too, fine by me.

This is meant to have West African as a decent religion even in Vanilla; I very much doubt my deity idea would come as a free feature should the devs ever approve it, considering what has been done to Protestant, Reformed, Hindu, Muslim and Buddhist. However, changing the current setup in Africa to have a non-generic pagan religion with good bonuses can be done as early as 1.14 already.


tl;dr -

- West African religion in West Africa, replacing Animist;
- Polytheistic religion, like Hindu;
- Deities tied to each region, rulers start with the one from their capital's region and can change only for a price;
- Available deities depend on WA presence in West Africa;
- One deity for each region in West Africa, even ones that start as Sunni in 1444;
- Foreign regions could or could not have deities too;
- Events related to the deities and diplomacy with other WA/Sunni rulers, instead of meditation like the Hindu ones;
- Possibly an unrest modifier for provinces from regions with a different deity than your ruler's;
- Maybe West African could have a cooler name too?

And that's it. Paradox pls fix
 
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I like the idea and it would certainly give more flavour to this region.
They could generally give some love to the animists and shamanists one day. Those religions didn't have a lot of influence in the politics of this time, so they probably didn't flesh them out but it would still make the game a bit more flavourfull and that's allways a nice thing.(maybe they could even fit in a last hellenism province in the pontic or bosporus region)
I have to admit that this may not be one of the most urgent improvements but still a nice one.
 
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I like the idea and it would certainly give more flavour to this region.
They could generally give some love to the animists and shamanists one day. Those religions didn't have a lot of influence in the politics of this time, so they probably didn't flesh them out but it would still make the game a bit more flavourfull and that's allways a nice thing.(maybe they could even fit in a last hellenism province in the pontic or bosporus region)
I have to admit that this may not be one of the most urgent improvements but still a nice one.

They made these closer to playable, but I'm not sure why the conversion decision for animist had to come at ADM 8 :(. Still, having a 2% decision is a big improvement from nothing. Generic pagan got that along with religious sacrifices being available outside of specific countries in recent patches so these faiths are better than they once were. They're still weaker than most non-Buddhist options though.
 
The core idea is a good one. It's already possible to add triggers to personal deities, so you could quite easily make a mod to test it out.
 
Really? Is it currently used by any Hindu/Norse deity?

It's used by every personal deity, but only to restrict them to the religions they're meant for (so no Norse Vishnu or Hindu Thor). You can extend this to any trigger you want though, including owning certain provinces, having an idea group, having positive stability, etc.
 
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It really bothers me that "animism" is considered a single religion. The idea that Benin could invade the Ainu and have no religious issues makes about as much sense as merging Orthodox, Catholic and Coptic into a single "Christian" religion.
 
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Yeah, that's another issue to be solved, the Pagan group is a mess right now. They should at the very least be divided by continents, even if the generic pagans are kept.
 
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Just an update: 1.14 royally screwed me over. I started with 12 regions in this thread and got to 24 regions (therefore 24 deities) in 1.13... meanwhile, 1.14 has 30-40 areas in sub-saharan Africa. So yeah, I'll need to double-check everyone. I think this can be done by assigning 2-3 regions to each deity in a plausible way but eh that's not what I wanted.

(or maybe I could intensify my research for a dozen more gods. oh christ, the modifiers...)
 
Just an update: 1.14 royally screwed me over. I started with 12 regions in this thread and got to 24 regions (therefore 24 deities) in 1.13... meanwhile, 1.14 has 30-40 areas in sub-saharan Africa. So yeah, I'll need to double-check everyone. I think this can be done by assigning 2-3 regions to each deity in a plausible way but eh that's not what I wanted.

(or maybe I could intensify my research for a dozen more gods. oh christ, the modifiers...)
Isn't there custom regions so you can tweak whatever number to cover whatever provinces you want?
 
West African pagan states should resist muslims much more, IRL they survived till late 19th century (and their traditions even longer).

I am really tired of seeing WA being dominated by Mali and Songhai every single time...
 
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Isn't there custom regions so you can tweak whatever number to cover whatever provinces you want?

Yeah, you can create any regions you want, but I wanted to avoid that. Those province groups also wouldn't work as they don't show in any mapmodes and are really only for events/decisions. In fact, I still need to find out how to add a tooltip for the deity choosing.

But taking a second look at Africa tells me it won't be that hard. The only weird part would be the Horn of Africa because I got two Somali deities for the region but now there's, like, ten areas there.

West African pagan states should resist muslims much more, IRL they survived till late 19th century (and their traditions even longer).

I am really tired of seeing WA being dominated by Mali and Songhai every single time...

I don't exactly know how to solve that. I changed my proposed +5% Discipline to +1 Heathen Tolerance to help the WAs in dealing with Sunni provinces they conquer while they don't convert them, but maybe I should get it back (even if nerfed to 2.5%). Mali can also easily convert to WA as all their provinces except for the capital are WA (Animist in vanilla), weirdly enough.

The real problem is Songhai, as they historically were defeated by Morocco which may simply not happen thanks to the Iberians. The Fulani event also doesn't help much against Mali because the latter still has all those Gold provinces. Maybe they could pull a Uzbek here and give them higher inflation/unrest in the region...
 
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Maybe Sunni powers here should behave similarly to Muslim sultanates in India, not converting most of pagan stuff. Or WA religion having no penalty to conversion_by_outsiders.
 
You mean not being easily converted, unlike the other pagans? Could work. The increased Heathen Tolerance too, but I guess that one would have to be a triggered modifier because changing their NIs would be a bit too touchy.
 
Hi. Necroing this just to post the changes I've recently made to Africa in my mod (and because the next dev diary will be about Africa). This is all, obviously, part of this suggestion so this is why they're being posted here.

Bw30fEJ.jpg

First, West African renamed to African (and with a nice color, 0.9 0.4 0.1 if you guys want it). This was done because, as you can see, I extended the religion to all of sub-saharan Africa.

Why is that? That is because, upon some research done on google+books (not a scholar myself, sorry), I realized ATR (African Traditional Religions), while obviously diverse in both numbers, influence and spiritual rituals, do have a lot of common elements amongst themselves in all of Africa; even in North Africa and such, the pre-abrahamic religions had some common elements.

There's also the fact that, while Paradox may not bother too much, I really don't like the idea of having a religion, a culture group AND a region sharing a same name. I find such situations to be quite confusing and kinda shows some lazy design. Yeah, "African" isn't the most creative name out there but at least it's not used anywhere else (except for a culture group but I changed that one too).

So, due to this, African religion should be present in all of sub-saharan Africa and also the Upper Nubia region because technically that's still Nubia.

wIKt91K.jpg

As for cultures. Ibani culture in Bonny and Calabar, tied to the West African culture group.

eDfbmkw.jpg

A new group, called Khoisan, with Khoikhoi and Saan as cultures.

kCpO85Z.jpg

And finally, the African culture group got renamed to Bantu (following the same logic about West African religion/culture/region aforementioned), and the old Bantu culture itself got split in many lesser ones. Jukun in West Africa; Kongolese in Kongo; Sotho and Nguni in South Africa; Tsonga, Kunda, Shona, Madagasque, Swahili, Majikenda and Zaramo in East Africa.

The idea would be to have new OPMs/2PMs for Jukun, Saan, Khoikhoi, Nguni, Sotho and Madagasque. The other five (Ibani, Tsonga, Kunda, Zaramo and Majikenda) would be tagless at first, or maybe dead tags. Kinda difficult when they're all tribes with some not even having much of a "unity" like the closer states. I still haven't added any tags because I took a break on Africa to work on other areas in my mod.

And yes, this is necessary not only because an all-Bantu group is silly but because some deities are related to culture (the areas are enough to define them though).

pjnhDpG.jpg

Then we have the Rebels. To convert to African, you need to either 1) be Pagan yourself, or 2) have your capital in the African-religion areas (sorry Egypt/Berbers) and have African as the dominant religion. This means that an exiled Portugal could become African, but an Yemen who sneaked its way into the Horn of Africa would still be Sunni until they moved their capital.

And while St. Helena and Diego Garcia are in the African continent, they still are Animist (and therefore are not included in the deities' areas) because their areas are India/America-related. Technically they should have no religion like Paradox is already doing with some empty provinces, but the "noreligion" icon is the Catholic cross and I find that terrible. So Animist it is.

Also, the Zealot Rebels flag is empty only because I haven't modded that in yet. But no worries, I just have to take a look at CKII's save converter once again.

DRQUaqO.jpg

And finally, the deities. As initially suggested, they would be based on the regions. I made some changes to the religion though because the initial bonuses I suggested were too good, I guess.

First, African religion gives +1 Tolerance of Heathens, -5 Years of Nationalism and -2 Provincial Missionary Strength (like Sunni, unlike Pagans). This is done to mirror the "resilience" of ATRs even under Sunni dominance, and also the relative tolerance of still-ATR rulers with their Sunni subjects. I am thinking about adding a triggered modifier for Sunni/African religions to get even more Heathen Tolerance if they have their capital in Africa, but I'm still not 100% sure.

Then the deities themselves. As I have zero drawing skills, I'm recycling the Hindu/Norse icons for the deities as you can see in this picture, but Paradox would obviously do better than that. There are 22 deities planned, with room for a 23th one for the Ethiopians and a 24th one for Madagascar (which I haven't planned yet, sorry; will edit later):

YEMOJA (Yoruba) - Lower Niger, Atacora Oueme, Gulf of Guinea
+1 Diplomatic Relations | +30% Better Relations Over Time
"Yemoja is the mother goddess of the Orishas and also the river deity for the Yoruba people. She is also known for summoning hurricanes to protect her children."

TANO (Akan) - Lower Volta, Upper Volta, West African Coast
+15% National Manpower Modifier | +25% Spy Offense [Spy Network Construction in 1.16]
"Tano is the deceitful god of the Tano River in the Volta region, and also a war god."

TIURAKH (Serer) - Cap Verde, Futa Jallon, Senegambian culture
+15% National Tax Modifier | +15% Trade Efficiency
"Tiurakh is the god of wealth and fortune for the Senegambian people, and one of the most important deities for them."

TAKURABOW (Hausa) - Hausa
+5% Discipline | +10% Fort Defense
"Takurabow is an ancient goddess of war for the Hausa people of Gobir, and also responsible for protecting the royal dynasty."

MOUSSA NYORI (Songhay) - Niger Bend, Dendi
-0.03 War Exhaustion | -15% Land Attrition
"Moussa Nyori is the divine hunter who controls the winds and the formation of clouds for the Songhay people."

CHIWARA (Bambara) - Massina, Bambara culture
+15% Production Efficiency | -15% Development Cost
"Chiwara is the ancient spirit who taught the Bambara people how to cultivate the land."

ZAKI SARKI (Tuareg) - Western Sahara, Tuareg culture
+2 Tolerance of Heathens | +1 Missionary
"Zaki Sarki, an old Tuareg deity, once violent and possessive, is now always found in deep meditation, studying the Quran."

DAN GANDA (Tuareg) - Azbin, Tuareg culture
+30% Improve Relations | -25% Stability Cost Modifier
"Dan Ganda is the Tuareg deity who took her clothes off to stop Zaki Sarki's massacre of her fellow spirits."

NGALMA DUKU (Kanuri) - Kanem, Bornu
-2% Prestige Decay | +20% Caravan Power
"Ngala Duku was the legendary founder of the first Kanuri dynasty to rule in the Lake Chad region, whose clan was associated with the netherworld."

KAMISA DU (Mandinka) - Manding, Fulani culture
+10% Infantry Combat Ability | +1 Advisor
"Kamisa Du was a powerful elderly woman who got transformed into a buffalo and also the grandmother of Sonjata, the founding hero of the Mandinka people."

WAGADU (Soninke) - Baghena, Tekrur
+2 Prestige | +1 Diplomatic Reputation
"Wagadu is the great goddess of the legendary namesake city. Having had many names before, she would always disappear from human sight whenever the city rulers sinned."

NINIGANNI (Baga) - Guinea, Kong, Dyola culture
+20% Manpower Recovery Speed | +10% Goods Produced
"Niniganni, a snake spirit, is the goddess of life, fortune and riches for the Baga people."

FUNZI (Kongolese) - Kongo, West Kongo, Angola
-5% Technology Cost | +1 Land Leader Fire
"Funzi is the Kongolese blacksmith god, responsible for iron and copper and for having created lightning."

NEHANDA (Shona) - Zimbabwe, Zambezi
+10% Morale of Armies | -15% Infantry Cost
"Nehanda, descending from the royal line of the founder-architect of Zimbabwe, is a guardian spirit for the Shona people, ready to guide them against foreign invasion."

AKI (Jukun) - Adamawa Plateau
+2 Attrition of Enemies | +50% Rebel Support Efficiency
"God of death for the Jukun people, Aki works like an ant, slowly and surely, unseen from most people."

N'WARI (Tsonga) - Mozambique, Central Swahili Coast
-20% Unjustified Demands | -10% Core-Creation Cost
"N'Wari, the bird god for the Tsonga people, once laid an egg by a hole in a reed, from which the first human was born."

MBABA MWANA WARESA (Nguni) - Cape of Good Hope
-10% Land Maintenance | -2 Unrest
"Mbaba Mwana Waresa is the goddess of rainbow, rain, and harvest for the Zulu people. She was also responsible for teaching them how to make beer."

[Madagascar?] - Madagascar/Mascarenes
??? | ???
"???"

APEDEMAK (Nubian) - Central Sahara, Kurdufan, Upper Nubia, Lower Nubia
-10% Regiment Cost | +10% Land Forcelimits
"Apedemak is a lion warrior, god of victory and protector of the kings, revered by the Nubian people long before the abrahamic religions set foot in Africa."

TSUI'GOAB (Khoisan) - South African Plateau
+1 Leader Upkeep | -10% Idea Cost
"Tsui'goab is the god of rain for the Saan people. Once a human, he won a fight against Gaunab, the god of death, who honored his promise and made Tsui'goab a god to stop the drought in his village."

KOLELO (Zaramo) - Kenya, Northern Swahili Coast
+20% Religious Unity | -15% Advisor Cost
"Kolelo is a spirit living in the mountains, revered by the Zaramo people. The spirit gives people divination in difficult issues in exchange for animal sacrifices."

HUUR (Somali) - Somaliland, Majarteen, Ajuuran, Mogadishu, Somali culture
+1 Diplomat | +1 Land Leader Manuever
"Huur is the messenger of death sent by gods for the Somali people, and has the form of a massive stork."

[Ethiopians?] - Kaffa, Central Ethiopia, Tigray, Red Sea Coast
??? | ???
"???"

MARAM (Oromo) - Ifat, Hadiya, Ogaden
+3 Tolerance of True Faith | +50% Heir Chance
"Maram is the fertility goddess for the Oromo people. Only channeled by women, she is associated with the christian Virgin Mary and often talks about the channeler's husband's wrongdoings."

To choose a deity, you need to have at least 1 stability; have a province with African religion in the area/with the culture mentioned; and the province must be either your capital or have less than 1 nationalism. The idea would be that you could change your personal deity once by the Religion tab and then lose 1 stability and possibly prestige, but the game is hardcoded to allow you to choose a deity only once so that would have to be done by decisions. Nothing difficult to mod, sure, but it would get ugly with 24 decisions appearing if you conquered all of Africa...

As for the modifiers, considering African religion wouldn't have those nice +MP events from Hindu and the militaristic AI nations would have access to 3-4 deities at best, I believe they need to be stronger than the Hindu deities'. The real challenge is actually balancing them out, jeez. And I'm still not liking Dan Ganda and Aki that much.

And yeah, Apedemak is bordeline cheating, being from 800-900 years ago, but it's a lion warrior. Too cool to ignore.


So, tl;dr:

-West African renamed to African;
-African covers all of Sub-Saharan Africa (and Upper Nubia);
-New culture in the West African culture group;
-African culture group renamed to Bantu, Bantu culture gets split into several ones;
-Conversion is possible if one is Pagan, or has capital in the deity areas and African as dominant religion;
-+1 Heathen Tolerance, -5 Years of Separatism, -2% Provincial Missionary Strength;
-One deity may cover more than one area, but one area only has one deity (1:n);
-Madagascar and Cushitic region still need deities;
-Still haven't worked on the African events >__>

Johann pls fix etc
 
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We should absolutely have these changes. But hey,guys, next DD is about Africa!
 
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This is great, great stuff. Hope the devs take a look at this thread! Are you planning to release a mod with these changes?

I'm making a personal mod which I plan on releasing if I ever find it in decent shape. Still not anytime soon because I'm doing it myself, I'm kinda slow (specially after I tried to stop Africa for a while to mod a disaster for Timurids... 1400 lines and counting) and jesus christ there's so much I want to change. But it's moving, even if at a slow pace.

We should absolutely have these changes. But hey,guys, next DD is about Africa!

Yep, exactly why I decided to update the thread. I'd have done it sooner but I took a break from Africa which proved to be longer than expected, then I had to "rush" and update here. This is why I still haven't thought of any deities for Madagascar/Ethiopia yet.
 
Passing by just to say I cried a little reading today's Dev Diary and that I don't even know what to do about this Fetishist thing. Pls send help

EDIT-- Oh ok now I realized Fetishist is just another name for ATR. So I could simply rename African to Fetishist and both my idea and the 1.16 changes to Africa would mesh perfectly. So my suggestions here stands, I will just have to update it once more to add Madagascar and this truckload of new states/regions.