Adding Dannevirke

[Wagonlitz]

@Trin Tragula

As you may or may not know a huge fortification complex called Dannevirke was built almost at the edge of Jutland around 500 AD. It continued being in continuous use and staffed for the next little millennium. Later in 1864 is was used again shortly.
It includes huge walls and dykes and also has several castles built into it. The reason for its placement is that at that particular spot Jutland is really narrow due to the marshes in the west which no army can traverse and the Sli---a fjord cutting deep into Jutland to the east. Hence it was practical and possible to build a huge defensive wall to protect Denmark---and it undoubtly deterred many trying to invade Denmark from the south.

Due to being continually expanded and in use for around a millennium it has several different parts of course. Some of them can be seen on this map where you also can see the different parts of it. In total it had 7 main parts and many smaller parts.

Here is another map showing it and the main trading route between Jutland and Germany---which also was the main route an army would take when invading. It even had a large gate at this route which essentially was the gate to Denmark.

Even today it is still a monumental fortification despite having been in disrepair for around half a millennium.

These brick and boulder walls, which are the ones seen under "Fase 8" on the first picture, were originally 7 meters high.

Despite being out of use by then it was still important enough to be shown on the Carta Marina from 1539.

That was the background. Now the suggestion: I suggest that Dannevirke is added to the game as a fortification. Yes the manning of it was discontinued around game start, but as far as I am aware that was solely due to it being expensive to man. So I would like to see it added with a large maintenance cost---and possibly you needing to upgrade it from time to time which would be expensive.
And possibly an option to get it back in working order (which would be expensive) if you initially decided to not have it staffed due to the cost.

 

[thibaud1]

Or perhaps a decision "Restore the Dannevirke" that for some amount of gold increases the defensiveness of the province.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Or perhaps a decision "Restore the Dannevirke" that for some amount of gold increases the defensiveness of the province.

That would be partially wrong though. It was a large scale defense work which included several castles and a large wall across Jutland. It really needs to be able to stop an invading army until they siege it down, since when in function you plain and simply couldn't invade Denmark by land without taking Dannevirke first.

 

[Gratak]

@Trin Tragula

As you may or may not know a huge fortification complex called Dannevirke was built almost at the edge of Jutland around 500 AD. It continued being in continuous use and staffed for the next little millennium. Later in 1864 is was used again shortly.
It includes huge walls and dykes and also has several castles built into it. The reason for its placement is that at that particular spot Jutland is really narrow due to the marshes in the west which no army can traverse and the Sli---a fjord cutting deep into Jutland to the east. Hence it was practical and possible to build a huge defensive wall to protect Denmark---and it undoubtly deterred many trying to invade Denmark from the south.

Due to being continually expanded and in use for around a millennium it has several different parts of course. Some of them can be seen on this map where you also can see the different parts of it. In total it had 7 main parts and many smaller parts.

Here is another map showing it and the main trading route between Jutland and Germany---which also was the main route an army would take when invading. It even had a large gate at this route which essentially was the gate to Denmark.

Even today it is still a monumental fortification despite having been in disrepair for around half a millennium.

These brick and boulder walls, which are the ones seen under "Fase 8" on the first picture, were originally 7 meters high.

Despite being out of use by then it was still important enough to be shown on the Carta Marina from 1539.

That was the background. Now the suggestion: I suggest that Dannevirke is added to the game as a fortification. Yes the manning of it was discontinued around game start, but as far as I am aware that was solely due to it being expensive to man. So I would like to see it added with a large maintenance cost---and possibly you needing to upgrade it from time to time which would be expensive.
And possibly an option to get it back in working order (which would be expensive) if you initially decided to not have it staffed due to the cost.

More free forts for the AI, YEAH
I do not thing that this would have been an obstacle to the cannon-armed armies of the EU4 period.

 

[Wagonlitz]

More free forts for the AI, YEAH
I do not thing that this would have been an obstacle to the cannon-armed armies of the EU4 period.

Why wouldn't it be as tough to crack as a fortified city/a fortress? It obviously would need to be upgraded, but I don't see how it wouldn't be able to withstand cannon armies if upgraded.

 

[Gratak]

Why wouldn't it be as tough to crack as a fortified city/a fortress? It obviously would need to be upgraded, but I don't see how it wouldn't be able to withstand cannon armies if upgraded.

"If upgraded". So... build that fort you are suggesting yourself and see the money needed as "upgrading the Dannevirke".

 

[Wagonlitz]

"If upgraded". So... build that fort you are suggesting yourself and see the money needed as "upgrading the Dannevirke".

My point was that there was a fortification preventing invasions of Denmark there already which had been there for a millennium at game start and which had continually been updated.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Do you have any account of Dannevirke playing a part in warfare from the eu4 era? Jutland was invaded from the south in the timeframe but I don't recall it being mentioned

 

[Tisifoni12]

From the same wiki page the above illustrations are from:

"The last military use of the Danevirke was during the Second War of Schleswig in 1864. Due especially to the above-mentioned emotive nationalist symbolism, public opinion in Denmark and the Danish military had expected the coming battle to take place here. After centuries of abandonment and decay, the Danevirke fortifications were partially restored, strengthened, and equipped with artillery installations in 1850 and 1861."

Key words are "centuries of abandonment and decay". Offa's Dyke on the English Welsh border was contemporary with the Danevirke, but was similarly of no practical military value by and during the EU4 period.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Do you have any account of Dannevirke playing a part in warfare from the eu4 era? Jutland was invaded from the south in the timeframe but I don't recall it being mentioned

As mentioned it was destaffed around game start due to it being too expensive. Hence why I said that putting it back in use should be expensive. Meaning that when we were invaded in the game period it wasn't staffed and hence useless.
And that it was used in 1864 shows that upgrading it was possible. (Plus as mentioned it was continually updated throughout its millennium in use to counter military technology advances. I don't see why you couldn't continue that if you were willing to foot the hefty bill for it.)

Key words are "centuries of abandonment and decay". Offa's Dyke on the English Welsh border was contemporary with the Danevirke, but was similarly of no practical military value by and during the EU4 period.

Offa's Dyke was continually reinforced and in use until game start?

 

[Tisifoni12]

Offa's Dyke certainly wasn't maintained into the EU4 period:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offa's_Dyke

I watched the Danish drama series 1864 when it was shown in the UK by the BBC and what I read about the Dannevirke's re-use in the 19th Century suggested that the re-building or modification of the remains of the Dannevirke at that time comprised the building of a small number of artillery forts.

 

[Wagonlitz]

I watched the Danish drama series 1864 when it was shown in the UK by the BBC and what I read about the Dannevirke's re-use in the 19th Century suggested that the re-building or modification of the remains of the Dannevirke at that time comprised the building of a small number of artillery forts.

I don't know exactly how they upgraded it in the 1850s (also that TV series was crap). My point is that in the early game things shouldn't have fallen too much into disrepair yet, since it had just recently been abandoned.

And there also is the psychological influence of it.

 

[Tisifoni12]

Recently been abandoned ?
The Wiki refers to sections of it being reinforced with brick in the 12th century, perhaps after around a century of dereliction. Also that it lost its purpose in the 14th due to changes in technology and military tactics. Was it, like Offa's Dyke or the less picturesque and now derelict sections of the Great Wall of China 'of its time'. A Dannevirke for the 18th Century would have to be very different to that built in the early medieval period. Building a fortification in Holstein will have the same effect in EU4 !