Adding Elephant Duel for Southeast Asia

[Pedro Tafur]

After reading about the dev diary about Mandala government, as a Southeast Asian myself, I am very excited to play in my home region with the unique government. Since this is still a work in progress, I would like to suggest adding a cool and historical flavor to the warfare of this region: Elephant Duel

From Medieval to Early Modern Southeast Asia, elephant duel is regarded as the most honorable fighting between two rulers commanding their armies to prevent further bloodshed. Although one of the most famous elephant duels (at least in my country), which is between King Naresuan of Ayutthaya and the Burmese crown prince Mingyi Swa, happened in the Early Modern Period, this tradition can be traced back to Medieval period. For example, the Ram Khamhaeng Inscription, dated to 1292, tells us about an elephant duel between Prince Ram Khamhaeng (later to be king of Sukhothai) and a belligerent ruler named Khun Sam Chon. It is depicted as follows:

When I [Prince Ram Khamhaeng] grew up reaching nineteen rice-harvests, Khŭn Sam Chŏn (Prince of Three Peoples), lord of Müăng Chawt, came to Müăng Tak. My father went to fight Khŭn Sam Chŏn by the right. Khŭn Sam Chŏn pressed on to meet him by the left. Khŭn Sam Chŏn charged in force. My father's people fled in haste, broken and scattered. I fled not. I bestrode the elephant Nekă Phŏn (Host of Warriors). I urged him into the mêlée in front of my father. I engaged Khŭn Sam Chŏn in elephant-duel. I myself thrust Khŭn Sam Chŏn's elephant—the one called Mat Müăng (Kingdom's Treasure) so that he was worsted. Khŭn Sam Chŏn was vanquished, fled. My father therefore raised my name to the title Phră Ram Khămhæng, because I thrust Khŭn Sam Chŏn's elephant.

Source: The Inscription of Phra Ram Khamhæng of Sukhothai, 1293 A.D./Translation

I think this type of duel could fit well with the mandala aspect mechanic, by giving rulers with destruction aspect, a special interaction to challenge the opposing army commanded by its ruler or his heir, to an elephant duel, a fatal duel. If one side manages to defeat the other by killing, the victor will immediately gain 100% war score and gain one level of piety and prestige (and maybe a bit of renown and legend seed). On the other hand, the losing combatant can choose to flee the battlefield or accept the fate and die with great honor. If he chooses to flee (the success chance depends on prowess, martial or intrigue skills), he will lose one level of piety and prestige. The same applies to those who do not accept the challenge, as elephant duel is an act of great honor between rulers. The failure to escape the duel will have two consequences. If coming out alive, he will be severely injured or maimed, lose one level of piety and prestige, but if he fails to flee and gets killed at the same time, his dynasty will lose a considerable amount of renown. If he chooses NOT to flee and accept the honorable death, the dynasty will lose a tiny bit of renown and gain a legend seed.

 

[Tom The Viking YT]

I like the idea, very interesting, could definitely be a great addition to the mandala government.

 

[naq29]

PETA won't like it

 

[Videogames]

We currently don't have horse-mounted individual combat, but I think the existing duel system could be adopted for both horse and elephant combat.

Duels on elephants are depicted in the Theravadin world going back to the Mahavamsa in Lanka, though not consistently in a ritualized way. Even Naresuan's combat with the Burmese prince, when you take a synoptic look at all the versions of the royal chronicals and other sources, appears to have happened in an unplanned way. I still think challenging another ruler to elephant combat in lieu of a full war could be a fun option though.

 

[klopkr]

Yes. Cool AF.

 

[strattonthebard]

Having them immediately resolve wars seems like it could get unbalanced real quick but I could see it being used to resolve a single battle without casualties and add an appropriate amount of warscore for a major battle.

something like this might also be appropriate for some battles between Muslim armies. Mubarizun, which are represented by special men at arms in the game, were actually more like designated champions who would engage in single combat with enemy champions between the lines of the main armies before the general battle started, so the outcome of the duel could potentially have advantage/morale implications that might swing the outcome of the battle as a whole.

In practical terms I suspect having to resolve a string of duel events every time there's a battle could get really annoying though.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

I am a simple man, I support making elephants a bigger deal in games.

 

[Videogames]

In practical terms I suspect having to resolve a string of duel events every time there's a battle could get really annoying though.

Yeah, if a duel is part of the regular battle flow it needs to be automatically resolved. For instance, if cultures are both up for it, the 2 highest prowess knights fight each other as the first phase of the battle, with the automatically generated outcome giving accolade points to the winner, adding advantage points to their side for the next phase, and/or adding a warscore multiplier to the battle outcome.

 

[strattonthebard]

Yeah, if a duel is part of the regular battle flow it needs to be automatically resolved. For instance, if cultures are both up for it, the 2 highest prowess knights fight each other as the first phase of the battle, with the automatically generated outcome giving accolade points to the winner, adding advantage points to their side for the next phase, and/or adding a warscore multiplier to the battle outcome.

If it's automatically resolved though then what is it adding other than just a more complicated and parallel version of the knight system? The benefit of such a system would be the historical flavor and you are probably only gonna get that with actual events

 

[Videogames]

If it's automatically resolved though then what is it adding other than just a more complicated and parallel version of the knight system? The benefit of such a system would be the historical flavor and you are probably only gonna get that with actual events

It wouldn't be parallel to the knight system; it'd be something additional that knights can do. I'd also imagine you can link in events as well, but not ones that interrupt the flow of the battle. Like a knight victorious in such a duel wanting a reward, or starting to steal away some of your own glory for the battle.

 

[Ksiendzu]

I would love to also see polo game in Persia

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

Also if elephant knights become a thing, I hope we could also get some reference to Baahubali when the India DLC rolls in.

 

[ChaosOnline]

I think I saw your suggestion back on the subreddit. Elephant duels sound both fun from a gameplay perspective and badass as hell from a historical perspective!

I really hope the devs do something with this.

 

[JonZone]

After reading about the dev diary about Mandala government, as a Southeast Asian myself, I am very excited to play in my home region with the unique government. Since this is still a work in progress, I would like to suggest adding a cool and historical flavor to the warfare of this region: Elephant Duel

I'd like to award you:

DEVELOPER AWARD: ELEPHANT DUEL - COOLEST SUGGESTION SO FAR
That being said, at this point we're mostly finishing up the things we have and making sure that you will actually have a DLC to play when summer is over.

 

[karasis65]

Bro I need my own elephant just like AGOT has dragons so I can raise him to become the best duel elephant ever!

 

[Videogames]

That being said, at this point we're mostly finishing up the things we have and making sure that you will actually have a DLC to play when summer is over.

The end of Q4 still seems far off now, but does this mean we should tamp down on hopes for feedback that expands or adds on to features of the current shared design? What I mean is that while ministers and wanua are still explicitly coming together design-wise according to the DDs, are other things such as ritsuryo/soryo government more or less already set in stone?

 

[Pedro Tafur]

I'd like to award you:

View attachment 1326012
DEVELOPER AWARD: ELEPHANT DUEL - COOLEST SUGGESTION SO FAR
That being said, at this point we're mostly finishing up the things we have and making sure that you will actually have a DLC to play when summer is over.

That's a very cute award, thank you! Seeing the aesthetic side of SEA is still not quite done, I am planning to suggest some medieval artifacts and clothing found in my country, so that the art designers could take inspirations from them or integrate them into the game. Is that too late? I am very excited to visit the museum right now!

 

[JonZone]

The end of Q4 still seems far off now, but does this mean we should tamp down on hopes for feedback that expands or adds on to features of the current shared design? What I mean is that while ministers and wanua are still explicitly coming together design-wise according to the DDs, are other things such as ritsuryo/soryo government more or less already set in stone?

Modifying existing features is easier than adding new features at this point!

I'm just a programmer currently chiseling away at Japanese UI, so the game design isn't really my forté, but right now I'd probably say that we're not exactly in need of even more content to finish for this DLC

It's already absolutely enormous and honestly, as someone who's looking forward to playing this thing, at this point I'd rather have everything that's already in to function well and be somewhat balanced!

 

[BaliorPal]

Modifying existing features is easier than adding new features at this point!

I'm just a programmer currently chiseling away at Japanese UI, so the game design isn't really my forté, but right now I'd probably say that we're not exactly in need of even more content to finish for this DLC

It's already absolutely enormous and honestly, as someone who's looking forward to playing this thing, at this point I'd rather have everything that's already in to function well and be somewhat balanced!

If this isn’t under NDA, I’d like to ask out of curiosity — are there already pieces of code being tested that relate to game systems planned for 2026? Are the future systems still only on paper at this stage, or is there already some code — even if it's just early test code that’ll probably be rewritten from scratch five times before release?

 

[JonZone]

If this isn’t under NDA, I’d like to ask out of curiosity — are there already pieces of code being tested that relate to game systems planned for 2026?

Not that I know of.

Are the future systems still only on paper at this stage

Yes.

is there already some code — even if it's just early test code that’ll probably be rewritten from scratch five times before release?

I would say the following:

1. Test code, except in rare circumstances, don't end up on our main branch, so usually a programmer doesn't leave a system unfinished before starting something new.
2. We very rarely rewrite code from scratch, sure it might need refactoring, but from scratch? Something must go very wrong for that to occur.
3. We have to be realistic when deadline strikes - and things that would need to be rewritten two more times from scratch to work would realistically end up on the chopping block in those cases.