• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

whalind

Recruit
71 Badges
Dec 28, 2010
4
0
  • Deus Vult
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
On 27 November 1095, on the penultimate day of the Council of Clermont, Pope Urban II delivered a speech calling on Christians to wage holy war. However, launching the First Crusade was not the only thing on Urban’s agenda that day. An important component of the business of the council was discussion of the Cluniac monastic reforms. Monasteries were powerful and wealthy institutions in the medieval world, operating all around the Mediterranean. Abbots and abbesses were often scions of noble houses, and their abbeys sometimes controlled vast properties – indeed, Urban himself had been the abbot of Cluny before his episcopal career. Monastic orders played an important role in the various reform movements which dominated medieval Church history. Monastic institutions preserved the literature and history of the Christian peoples living under Muslim rule across the medieval Middle East. It seems odd then that a game about the crusades doesn’t model them into gameplay except via events and optional DLCs. With Crusader Kings 3 announced, this seems like the appropriate time to discuss systemic changes like adding monasteries. I will suggest how it could be done within the previous game’s established systems, and why doing so will make gameplay better.

How they might be added
I propose that the game have only two types of holdings: cities, representing administrative centres, and estates, representing rural properties and dispersed settlements. However, each type of holding can be governed by either a civil or religious authority. CK2 already models civil authority over both types of holding. A city governed by a religious authority will be a bishopric, which is appropriate of course because a bishop, by definition, is tied to the city as a centre for ecclesiastic administration. However, this allows the new combination of a religious authority controlling rural estates, which would be a monastery.

Code:
                         City                               Rural Estate

Civil Authority          Mayor (civilian) /Count (feudal)   Count

Religious Authority      Bishop                             Abbot (civilian) /Grandmaster (military)

Sorry it's not code, I don't know how else to get this to align.

Obviously these are generalized power structures; nuance will be needed to differentiate cultures and religions. Both types of authority would have somewhat different buildings available to improve each type of holding, some of which could make it harder to switch authority (or easier to change it back if it did get flipped by, say, a peasant revolt expelling the bishop). Such a system will have the benefit of correctly situating bishops in cities. Whether a city is governed by a bishop or mayor would merely reflect the present balance of power within local politics – and would allow, for example, the game to correctly model the late-twelfth-century republican government of the Commune of Rome. An added benefit is that such a system might help with creating a better model for the Roman imperial system with its powerful aristocratic landholders (civil authority, rural estates) with its constitutionally-ordered civil systems of authority.

Role-playing benefits
Adding in monasteries will create new gameplay to manage property, family, and religious opinions. Monastic charters – legal documents recording the transfer of property – are important sources for our understanding of the medieval economy, and give evidence that property regularly changed hands between the ownership of laity, the church, and monastic orders. Gemepay-wise, a lord who owns too many estates to manage themselves can choose to found a new monastery which will function as a vassal. It will give a small amount of piety and prestige, at least at first, but give the lord a large amount of control to appoint abbots/abbesses, and even expropriate the wealth if necessary (for a big hit to opinions and stability). Alternatively, the lord could donate the estate to an established monastic community, getting far greater prestige, piety, and stability and gaining influence over an established institution such as the Monastery of St Denis or Monte Cassino, or the crusader orders. Over generations, lords could vie for patronage of major monasteries.

For both AI and player, monasteries need to be an attractive partner for governing a medieval kingdom. While monasteries won’t be providing financial support (they were often medieval tax havens for the ultra-rich), they will provide stability, manpower, and religious authority. The crusader orders (e.g. Hospitallers and Templars), besides benefiting from being mechanically fleshed-out, will help secure the Catholic hold on Outremere. The monastic republic on Mount Athos could also be represented as in-game actors, and not just via events. Especially for poor and marginal estates, monastic ownership should be the optimal way to get any use out of them. Lands in the Alps, Pyranees, or Appenines, which would never be able to provide as much wealth as estates elsewhere, were and should be natural homes for ascetic communities. Monasteries will help turn very large families from liabilities into assets – appointing children, siblings, or cousins as abbots or abbesses will provide new paths for career ambitions which will enhance your dynasty’s prestige. In addition, monasteries will help make the game better able to model the religious and cultural diversity which defined the medieval middle east historically. The monasteries of St Catherine’s in the Sinai, Mar Saba outside Jerusalem, or the White Monastery in Upper Egypt have all operated continuously from Late Antiquity to today. In history, Muslim rulers benefited from protecting these institutions. Adding them to the game can help model the indigenous Christians and their interactions with both Muslims and Crusaders, and not just a colour on the map which gets auto-converted within the first generation of the game’s start.

Mechanical benefits – reforms and decay
Wealthy, powerful monasteries need to be both blessing and curse. They will naturally be major targets for raiders and nomads, keen to grab some easy wealth. Failure to defend one will carry long-term negative repercussions for the liege and potentially his dynasty as well. If monasteries collect too much wealth and their monks stray too far from their vows of poverty, their decadence will alienate reform-minded characters and piss off the exploited peasants who have been bled dry to support these monks’ frivolous lifestyles. Popes and rulers should be encouraged to call ecclesiastic councils to try to bring reforms to reign in the monk’s excesses. In turn, zealous abbots will initiate reform movements targeting the worldly wealth and power of the Church. Not only will a decadent monastery make a peasant revolt more likely, but should the revolt successfully sack and loot its treasury the monastery’s one-time patron might find themselves facing a peasant commune with the financial resources to hire lots of mercenaries.

Finally, adding monasteries as a game mechanic could provide a much-needed ‘decay’ mechanic for established political systems. Monasteries should provide huge benefits to their patron and their patron’s dynasty, but will be corrosive to the prosperity of the state to which they nominally belong. A higher percentage of monasteries will make vassal lords and religious authorities happier, and a state more stable, up to a point. If lords are too good at evading taxes, hiding away too much economically productive land, then tax revenues will collapse. This actually happened in the Palaiologan period, which crippled Roman/Byzantine finances and impeded their ability to reform the state. This will allow for emergent gameplay as a powerful and lucky ruler will be able to liquidate and dissolve a monastic order which becomes too powerful within their realm, as Phillip IV of France did to the Templars in 1307 – and the potential for unmitigated disaster should this plot fail. A kingdom which has had too much of its land handed over to monasteries and unable to summon the authority to dissolve them will drown in a death-spiral, making vast quantities of prestige and piety even as it can’t muster the manpower to defend itself or gold to pay the mercenaries.
 
I think your basic idea is very feasible actually given what I have seen in the dev diaries. Based on some inference,

I think that they have implemented a general leasing mechanic for all holdings. Basically, you give a permanent grant of a holding to a group. By default, bishoprics are leased to bishops. I believe they mentioned that holy orders can lease from you too.

Thus, I think leasing to monastic orders would not be a big step for them.
 
A few random thoughts on this topic of monastic orders...

I would love to see monasteries and convents (large ones as an abby) led by abbots or abbesses. I would like to see priests referred to as “Father,” nuns as “Sister,” and monks as “Brother.” Geographic placement on the map may also help model the spread of monastic orders. This could be used to limit lay characters joining as oblates when they are outside a defined distance from the abby. I would also like to see a system where the monks of an abby in a city elect the bishop and occasionally their choice comes into conflict with the local feudal ruler or the king.
 
This is one of the best ideas I've seen in this forum.

Plus, this is a better way of doing holdings I think.

100% in favour of this.
 
Monasteries are very much a necessary addition to Crusader Kings III, in my opinion. Apart from allowing temples to more accurately reflect the historical distribution of dioceses, monasteries also give us things like Cluny Abbey, Montecassino (from which Pope Victor III came), or the Princess-Abbey of Quedlinburg, both significant institutions, and would reward us with a female counterpart to male monasticism for excess daughters and pious elderwomen. The abbots Bernard of Clairvaux and Suger were both politically noteworthy during the reign of Louis VII, to give just one example: your chaplain might be an abbot or monk as easily as a bishop.
 
It's a well thought plan with details on how to make it work ingame.
As far as monasteries have been suggested in the past, this is by far the brst suggestion out there.

One thing i think is missing though, is how the monastic characters will interact with the rest. You covered the single monastery as an institution, by how would individual characters work?
I think once we cover that, we'll have a full on proposal here.


The only thing that might be an obstacle, is that ck3 will still be based on a 3 holding type sistem and devs might be unwilling to deal with that.
It might be worker around by monasteries and bishops both holding the same kind of holding (temple), but with different government and with the mechanics you described.
 
Another reason why rulers were willing to give up land (as monasteries provided neither levy nor tax) is technology. Knowledge from the classical era as well as anything discovered during the dark ages (as in V-X century) was spread through monasteries. This made them especially important for newly converted pagan lords, basically having the same effect as if you used spy technology on Rome in ck2.
Add to that chronicling, book-copying and book-keeping, chronicling being extremely important for medieval rulers and noble families, for obvious reasons.
Then you have medicine, a place for second and third sons (The polish-lithuanian king at eu4s earliest start date, if you go jagiellon, was actually meant for life in a monastery)
Not to mention that until the growth of cities somewhere between XI and XIII century the monasteries were the production centres. Including the the forging of weapons and armor.
Remember that one of the oldest monkly chapters the benedictines had their motto be Ora et Labora - pray and work
 
Agreed, monasteries are one of the big things missing from CK2. They can be related to a lot of things, already said: 1) targets for looting; 2) wealth accumulation - increase through donations and basicly tax-free, possibly extending well beyond the borders of a single holding; they can be a tool for dynasties to rise gaining wealth, prestige, piety, knowledge and power within the church, as long as they have the right to nominate the abbot and put a person of trust at the head, usually a son or daughter; but they could also be snatched away by high churchmen, with an action similar to "revoke title". A monastery becoming independent can wound a dynasty and create an internal competitor in your lands, subtracting to your taxes. But then there should be an option to usurp lands in times of strife, raid or take control of it again.
 
I do like the overall idea - greater granularity in politics and land ownership in CK2 would be great - but I think one of the issues with this is how your proposed system might translate across into other religions and regions. The current castle, city and temple trichotomy is obviously ahistorical but is nevertheless able to approximately represent different sources of power - military, popular, and religious.

I do share your concern that the game as it stands seems to leave major real-world religious institutions and movements on the sidelines. In terms of in-game Islam, in CK2 this is even worse than Christianity: instead of having any mechanic for representing the ulama and their schools of thought, it simply makes it appear as though all religious authority was vested in miliary rulers. Likewise, despite the spiritual and political influence of Sufi orders in the medieval era, CK2 Islam has no religious societies. Without mods, it can sometimes all feel a bit religiously hollow and excessively militaristic!

Nevertheless, I don't think your system as it currently stands would work for Islam, or indeed for other religions with no centralised religious hierarchy. With several notable exceptions, religious authority and temporal power were not closely linked in orthodox Islam, even as the ulama became increasingly professionalised (and a number became rather attached to official patronage and court life...). Without coming up with an entirely different system for Islam to run on (and leaving aside for the moment the civilian/non-civilian matter), this would therefore flatten your categories to a very limited combination within just two holding types, which may make Muslims rather more boring to play. Obviously CK3 Islam does need major improvement, but I am wary of a system which increases the amount of work the developers would need to do to bring it up to par.