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unmerged(8303)

Henri II Valois
Mar 19, 2002
2.046
0
www.europa-universalis.com
I have been enjoying for the last week regular MP sessions with JohnMK. He is a tough nut to crack! If you will look below you will see the situation in Europe. I find myself outgunned in every catagory: He has superior army, superior navy, superior economy, better fortifications, more colonies, more manpower. You name it, he has got it!! The only thing I have more of is frenchmen and core provinces!! :D

franceshot.JPG


I feel surrounded by Spain and her sister Austria to the east. Totally surrounded! How can I hope to break out from the grip she has me in? I find Europe hostile to me but with nearly 200 years left to play I have hope I might be able to break the Spanish grip on Europe and save protestantism! ( which is on the verge of collapse except in the extreme north )

PS - I am Reformed. That is why I care about the protestants. Catholics are becoming stronger by the day and I feel as though should I war Spain I would be crushed.

He has taught me more in this one game however than I knew for a very long time. Very interesting stuff. :)

So any advice on how to defeat MK and bring France into the limelight?
 
War exhaustion. Anyway I promise not to read anything else posted in this thread. I actually want a challenge . . . I was hoping a human Austria would ally with France but indeed the opposite happened. And now with Austria being AI controlled, she's not part of the equation. I told Jaron long ago not to let me unite Italy with the Spanish crown but sadly he seemed unwilling to challenge me when he was actually stronger. And now, the situation does indeed look grim and very unbalanced.
 
MadKingJames tried to destroy you with war exhaustion. Unless you suggest I can hold you off longer than his Austria did that won't work. You have iberian and italian culture and your country holds together quite well for a long time. Unless I hit you during low stability perhaps but you take care of yourself pretty well. I've never seen you lower than -2 or -3 stability. EVER.
 
You're screwed, his Spanish Empire controls a hell of a lot more than just Italy and Spain, he has monopolies on ALL the centers of trade on earth... I realized just how lunatic the situation was when I had slaughered about 400k of his troops and by the end of the decade he not only had rebuilt his forces, but amassed even more and deployed them before I could even reform my armies. Fighting someone where logistics, money and manpower are no longer an issue isn't even amusing :p
 
WE is the answer. Wait till he gets in to another war and then hit him hard. You need to Blitz him fast. Take his armies down then cover as many provinces as you can. Go after Spain first and hurt the heart of his country. I don't know if he has converted the Indians in the NW I'm sure he has already taken, but they will revolt first along with the Italian stuff. You have good manpower and cash, if you need more cash move your slider over and take some inflation it won't hurt you that much. Your Core provinces can go twice as long in a war compared to all the non core ones he has. I think his manpower would run out first, and you should buy all the mercenaries up first before he starts using them. Good luck!!!

;)
 
That does pose another problem he has shields on alot of those islands that like to revolt. I was wondering why you said he had Italian culture I just thought you made a mistake. The situation is very bad indeed. What kind of alliance do you have? You need to get him fighting on as many fronts as possible as that is one weakness that a human has, can't be in to many places at once. The ai won't help much but it may distract him. Are you playing on VH? Where is his BB? BB wars would be a good way to increase his WE. Maybe the AI will help with this. Let us know how it turns out.;)
 
Well, if the dutch revolts are going maybe you should strike hardest to the north, rubbing his armies but not taking provinces, just covering them hoping for revolts to take them and dutch independence. That would take care of one flank.

On the other end maybe move straight for assault on capital for maps and maybe encouraging allies to WP. (AI allies seem to prefer to defect alliances if leader's capital is held. This might not be the issue with large nations like Austria is, though)

Reformed.. heh.. that has cost you some money I bet..

Historically France defended protestantism just because Austria and Spain suppressed it, but I guess you are deeper involved :)

Whoops, boss coming
 
Originally posted by jaron

I feel surrounded by Spain and her sister Austria to the east. Totally surrounded! How can I hope to break out from the grip she has me in? I find Europe hostile to me but with nearly 200 years left to play I have hope I might be able to break the Spanish grip on Europe and save protestantism! ( which is on the verge of collapse except in the extreme north )

Congratulations, you now know how the French Kings of that period feeled like. :) Sure looks like and interesting and tough game.
 
If you both have over 35 BB then you should both be getting wars declared on you by the AI every 5 years unless it works different in multiplayer. I am usually in MP games where the other humans jump on you long before you can get this powerful. The AI will attack you even if you can stomp them, that is the way the BB wars work on very hard. This could be different in MP though. A lot of countries have been eliminated so they may not be as effective as they would be in the earlier stages of the game. Some of you WC guys know for sure on the BB thing in MP.
 
FedEx JohnMK a crate or two of beer and convince him that drinking the lot immediately prior to playing is a really brilliant idea. This may take some doing, but I trust in your ingenuity. Then, and this is important, you convince him that he ought to switch religion to protestant, and, a few minutes later, to reformed. Suggest that his game will be more interesting with max intolerance to Catholics, and more historically accurate too. (*)

Now, drunk on booze, power, and largescale rebellions, he will laugh in your face when you invade.

You'll still lose, of course, and badly at that, but at least you'll go down in flames with a crazed smile on your face. :D



* Technically this counts as a lie, but you can claim it is a well-known fact, delivered down from father to son in the oral tradition of the muslim settlers of North America - you know, the ones led by Garibaldi. Hey! It might work.
 
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Heh.

I've played many times with JohnMK. I agree, he is a tough nut to crack...Especially when he takes Spain and manages to grab Italy.

This however, is entirely your fault. The only way to beat JohnMK is under the following requirements:

A) On the premise that everyone takes a major, you must be a better tactician then John. Basically, he's a great player.

B) You must put pressure on him early.

C) You must hit him early.

D) You must be a good enough player to develop enough critical mass to eventually take him down in a stand up fight.


I'll give two separate examples. In one game, JohnMK was Spain. It was a fairly big MP game with about 6-8 people including Maur who was France I think. Well, as I knew he would, John went and grabbed Italy. (Ussually he grabs Italy as Aragon, but we were starting in 1492). I knew, as I was Austria in that game, that the only way to offset John's inevitable huge empire was to go on a rampage on the continent. John is the epitome of self-confidence, but you can spook him big time if you show even more aggression then he does.

At this time, France launched a surprise invasion on Austria...Before I could even take steps to deal with Spain. In short order, I slaughtered the French player, taking several provinces from him, and with France sufficiently cowed, used my 5 shock Austrian general to annihilate the HRE. Eventually, I was huge. Stretching from the Netherlands to Hungary, I annexed every single German province, converted them all to catholic, and then I annexed all of Poland.

I was this massive white blob that made France look tiny. France and Spain then allied against me. I had 250+ manpower and we were still in the 1500s.

In any case, no one wanted to play anymore because Austria had gotten too powerful. The same thing happened when I was the Ottomans. and when I was France, and he was the Ottomans. He had 150 years to build up before I even entered the game :D.

So in conclusion. You can't beat John anymore in your game. Simply because, he is a better player and while you were dicking around taking France reformed or protestant, he was building a massive empire. I am better (barely) at fighting then John, but he surpasses me when it comes to empire micromanagement. (something Ulver is very good at as well).

I hate to say this...But John is such a great player, that unless you are equally great and very confident, you cannot afford to play nice with him. Especially if he is someone on the fringes of Europe who can expond exponetially via colonizing. You need to be very aggressive and to hit him early in the game. As soon as you give him 15-30 years (depending on the country) to peacefully build himself up, you will have lost, unless you were able to become even more powerful in the meantime.

Consequently, most of my games with John have ended when one or the other of us got the jump, and ended up with the biggest empire. We then realize the inevitable outcome and start again.

He is also, the only person whom I play with on a regular basis (except for the past couple weeks) who when we playing with other people, we have to agree to pull our punches and play nice so as to not ruin the game for other people or scare them off.

Thats partly the reason I came into the MGC with a hesitant attitude...Not wanting to scare everyone off after the first 30 years :D.

Sorry jaron. sorry MKJ. You're screwed this game. Next time, catch him early.
 
Bah I entered the game and only played for 20 years, basically trying to bring down either France or Spain through sheer ugly brutal war exhaustion. Unfortunately I failed, though I figure I cost John about 30,000 ducats in troops.
 
Hi there,

Contrary to what Damoclas has said, I firmly believe that You still have a chance to defeat JohnMk, however that is only achievable in the long-run, even then You will cripple Your country as well, most probably allowing some AI controlled country to win in the VP race, thus beware.

Apart from the map You have posted, there is very little info we have on the game, thus my advice should be adjusted for the current situation.

The factors You should build upon:

- long wars against the austro-spanish coalition, resulting in massive war exhaustion. Austria is very likely to fall apart in a long war (lots of small nations to pop-up everywhere), thus eventhough You will probably not harm Spain in the short-run, taking out Austria for good will harm him in the long-run. Especially if You can ally Yourself with those countries that will fill that vacuum, once Austria is reduced.

- Avoid a confrontation on too many fronts: Only go after Austria, concentrate the bulk of Your forces on killing off its forces, allowing rebellions to spread, and new nations to pop-up. You might as well grab a few provinces fom Austria, but I think Your BB value is already high enough.

- Dutch-rebels: It is obviously not a huge problem for the Spanish player, but it will distract him, and pull resources away from a war against You, as he will need to put down all those revolts up north. You might as well try and kill of his armies there, but I guess Youu will lack the resources for that.

- Once You finish Austria You will "only" have to deal with Spain, but by that time war exhaustion is going to take its toll on both sides, but strategically You are probably in a much better position as Spain. (although I have no idea abut Your DP-settings)

- Before entering a huge war against the austro-spanish alliance you should find some good allies. No. 1 target should be England (it is a good ally that will do the colonial war for You) and Poland (against Austria, depending on its State religion, and the Russian situation) , however the Ottomans should be also preferable partners (against Austria, and eventually in the mediterranium against Spain)

- Build on Your advantages: You get better, and much more leaders than Spain and Austria combined, use them well. You will have the luxury to allow Yourself small, but potent little forces running around with a good leader causing some havoc (raids into Spain, Italy) but avoiding enemy troops. Thus You should out-manouvre Spain as often as You can, especially if You are out-numbered. Only engage in battles You are sure of winning.

- Economic war: Embargo Spain right away from Your CoTs, plunder his provinces when You can, I would even commission priveteers if the BB rate alows me to do it.

- Do not forget, that You have CB shields on many of the Spanish possessions (Franche-Comte, etc.), thus if Austria attacks You, and You quickly beat them, gain controll of 3-4 of their provinces (thus get around 30-40% in a peace resolution) You can sue Austria for those provinces, even though You night not controll them at all. That is one of the few tactics You can use against another human controlled country, the best way is off course if its a one-provicne minor in their alliance who declares war on You, as by controlling tha one province You can ask provinces for 100 %.

As a conclusion: You need to fight a "dirty-war" on all the fronts (military, economy, diplomacy), guerilla tactics, lots of manouvre, taking spanish allies out one-by-one, concentrating maximum efforts one thing at a time, kind of hit and run, and eventually with some luck on Your side, a consistent "kamikaze" tactic might help You edge Spain. Engage in long wars, build on war exhaustion, and remember "He has much more to loos then You, as You do not have much" ;)


My 2 cents,

Cheriioo Attilla the Hun
 
Attila,

If Jaron was a much better player then JohnMK, France might have the opportunity to defeat Spain.

Unfortunately, as it stands now, France has zero chance of taking Spain down via war attrition. If and when France tries to launch an attack, he will discover that Spain is already far more prepared. But I mean, come on. This is a Aragon turned Spain who owns the vast majority of the world, including Italy and the Netherlands.

It would take only a few years to crush French resistance with massive armies from three sides at once.

Nah. Unless a couple exceptional players joined the game committed to forming an anti-Spain league (EDIT: And if countries like England, Ottomans and Russia are still viable, including Austria), then this game is as good as over.

And you know what? I feel zero sympathy. From what I heard, Jaron basically played it like it was singleplayer. Focusing so much on taking France reformed for the dubious benefits it offers (without massive colonial expansion) to the extent that he allowed Spain to take Italy and peacefully inherit Netherlands.

Personally...If I ever saw anyone take Aragon and try to unite both the Iberian peninsula and Italy, I would crush him. Just out of general principle. Even if it made that player quit the game from such a severe ass kicking. It would be the only morally justifiable course of action :cool:

Anyhow, you vastly underestimate JohnMK, Attila. In the admittedly limited EUII multiplayer community he is the second most skilled player out there.

P.S If any country follows such blatantly kamikaze tactics as you would advise...Especially in such an uneven matchup, I would be so pissed that I would get a 100 percent peace treaty, then demand 300 % worth of provinces, abusing the game engine as ruthlessly as he was trying to.
 
Originally posted by Damocles
Attila,

And you know what? I feel zero sympathy. From what I heard, Jaron basically played it like it was singleplayer. Focusing so much on taking France reformed for the dubious benefits it offers (without massive colonial expansion) to the extent that he allowed Spain to take Italy and peacefully inherit Netherlands.

Personally...If I ever saw anyone take Aragon and try to unite both the Iberian peninsula and Italy, I would crush him. Just out of general principle. Even if it made that player quit the game from such a severe ass kicking. It would be the only morally justifiable course of action :cool:

Yup, absolutely agree with that. If You can't keep an eye on the other players do not join in MP games.


Originally posted by Damocles


Anyhow, you vastly underestimate JohnMK, Attila. In the admittedly limited EUII multiplayer community he is the second most skilled player out there.


Unfortunately I have not had the pleasure to meet any of You guys out there yet, but beware I'll be there soon, as I have long lost the interest in playing SP games, I have only played MPs for the last year or so.


Originally posted by Damocles

P.S If any country follows such blatantly kamikaze tactics as you would advise...Especially in such an uneven matchup, I would be so pissed that I would get a 100 percent peace treaty, then demand 300 % worth of provinces, abusing the game engine as ruthlessly as he was trying to.

It is almost impossible to controll all of ones provinces after a while, as You always have rebells poping-up here and there liberating the previously taken provinces, thus the war can rage on practicaly for ever, until of course on of the government falls. ;)

I doubt though, that Spain is in such a position to conquer all french provinces quickly, thus within a year or two. (please note though, that I have no idea of Spain's nor France's military capacity)

Cherioo:D
 
Hack your way into his computer, and include a spanish event that will cause 90% revolt risk for 50 years. That should turn the tide. Otherwise: You're screwed! :D
 
Guys...........................

This is my first MP game. I only have played with a few other people and they have been either cooperative spain/portugal or one time games like 1617 scenario.

John was a new experience for me. I think part of my problem was m'greediness. I sold him franche-comte, artois, flandern for 6000 ducats. Those were prime French possessions but I let them go.

When he told me early on: invest in infrastructure. I laughed and went into land tech. In response to Damocles I considered attacking John after I had acquired most of my french provinces. I had him trembling in fear. so I asked him his opinion on an invasion and he said he'd crush me. So I decided not to. But he later told me I would have won because he was not prepared for war.

For an update, JohnMK had the repatriation of the netherlands event and now has dutch culture.

YES I may have played like I was in single player but its really my first time and if I were to repeat this I would put a lot more pressure on him. By for the last 300 years or so except for a few times we've had a royal marriage and an alliance. So theres not a terrible lot I could do.

An embargo on France or Spain would be useless. I dont trade in his Cots and he doesnt trade in mine.

I think my tactic will be to rush into Spain ( since he is Aragon turned Spain his capital is so close to the border. I will then get his maps and build a colonial army to burn his trading posts down and damage his colonies.

Maybe not now ( 1650 ) but in 100 years who knows? I might be able to take a few spanish provinces and maybe even reverse the situation in Italy. John has attacked Austria and stolen Steiermark from them.

On a bright note I successfully captured Manhattan w/CoT!