We can always find an excuse to keep pushing the map, huh?
It's true though, a lot of southern Kilwa isn't going to be included if the map stops at Zanzibar.
How far down should it go through? Zambezi River?
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We can always find an excuse to keep pushing the map, huh?
It's true though, a lot of southern Kilwa isn't going to be included if the map stops at Zanzibar.
How far down should it go through? Zambezi River?
Like you said, there can always be a good reason to expand it a bit! Ideally, I would love for the map to be south enough to include the lands of the Great Zimbabwe! To be a bit more realistic, I'd say to Kilwa Kisiwani to at least have the capital of the Kilwa Sultanate without having to show Madagascar if the devs are set on not adding it.
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I am not sure more of Africa should be added at all. You might as well add Greenland and Australia for that matter. There was a severe lack of impact that the interior of the continent had on any outside part during this time period, let alone the lack of knowledge that anybody at the time had. Greenland has a better case than anything west of the Swahili Coast being added while Australia probably has just of good of a case. Adding just the coast and nothing else will feel kind of awkward too.
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Nice! I look forward to giving Kilwa or the other Swahili states a try sometime!
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The best outcome.
Zanzibar is actually a little north to include Java but I think it's pretty clear the map skews north somewhat. so not the end of the world.
A more latitudely correct map would end just at the northern tip of Madagascar. But it's no biggie.
Making a version of the map with correct latitudes seems like the easier thing to do and would include a more logical amount of Kilwa. But if that's not in the cards so be it.
Anyways reminder that Japan is about the latitude of Orleans to Lisbon. China's southern border is around that of Egypts.
Zanzibar is actually a little north to include Java but I think it's pretty clear the map skews north somewhat. so not the end of the world.
A more latitudely correct map would end just at the northern tip of Madagascar. But it's no biggie.
Making a version of the map with correct latitudes seems like the easier thing to do and would include a more logical amount of Kilwa. But if that's not in the cards so be it.
Anyways reminder that Japan is about the latitude of Orleans to Lisbon. China's southern border is around that of Egypts.
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It’s a bit strange that they do not include Kilwa if the Zanzibar comment is to be taken literally. It was the namesake and capital of the trade empire that emerged there after all. Ibn Battuta travelled there and it was one of the major medieval African sites. If Zimbabwe is too far south, surely Kilwa Kisiwani should have been the cutting off point instead of Zanzibar…
Nevertheless, I’m still glad they expanded the map south (and east) at all.
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"World" History courses and their consequences have been a disaster for the human race
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???
I am no sure what you mean by that.
The outsiders who conquered the coast got the neighboring people to trade and/or tribute high value items of gold and slaves. But the conquerors knew nothing about the interior. The only reason to include the interior would because such actions had a domino affect on the continent west of the coast, though I am not sure how far the effect lasted. Probably not to the Atlantic. Outside of the effects of the exporting of these high value items, the impact on the rest of the old world was negligible.
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Which conquerors? The Persian-Abyssinian rulers of Kilwa purchased the land initially and the Portuguese don't show up until after the end date. To say they knew nothing of the interior is wrong at best and wrong at worst
I mean yes, outside of the exchanges between regions that did happen no exchange between regions happened, we might as well remove Indonesia too, all they did was trade spices after all
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Unless you can provide a source that is more reliable than Wikipedia, then your statement is wrong. The coastal areas were not purchased by outsiders to rule. They were conquered. And the interactions between Indonesia and the rest of East Asia extended well beyond the spice trade. Military and cultural interactions throughout Southeast Asia occurred, where as the outside world’s only impact west of the coast was economic and indirect.Which conquerors? The Persian-Abyssinian rulers of Kilwa purchased the land initially and the Portuguese don't show up until after the end date. To say they knew nothing of the interior is wrong at best and wrong at worst
I mean yes, outside of the exchanges between regions that did happen no exchange between regions happened, we might as well remove Indonesia too, all they did was trade spices after all
Edit.
I believe you are purposely being a troll. Thus, I am going to ignore you and unfollow this thread.
Edit 2. I did some more digging. The cities the outsiders founded were originally just trading centers. The coastal area did eventually get the necessary intermixing that would be required, but the interior areas of the continent were largely untouched by the outside world. The Sultanate and its relationships with the continent were not a mutual beneficial one, and the creation of the sultanate was done like any other state larger than a city state. Conflict.
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Though adding more playable regions is always nice, I 'm afraid that east Africa shall all convert to sunni in 200 years like Ethiopia, while they didn't historically. I didn't see any chance of it improving as it's the case since CK2.
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I’m not particular informed on medieval history - how far south (on both coasts) did meaningful interaction occur between Africans and the rest of the world?
I think I’ve heard that malaria and something about the ocean currents isolated certain regions but I’m not sure.
I think I’ve heard that malaria and something about the ocean currents isolated certain regions but I’m not sure.
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Another thing would be worse is Mother of Us All. The achievement is time-consuming enough now.
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I am no expert on the matter however from what I understand the East African coast as far south as Mapungubwe and more prominently Great Zimbabwe engaged in trade with the rest of the Indian ocean and resulted in goods from as far as China being found at least I've heard in Great Zimbabwe. Beyond trade, the Swahili coast would become increasingly entangled with the Middle East with the Swahili language first using the Arabic script and the spread of Islam down the coast to as far as Madagascar by CK3s end date.
The western coast of Africa was connected to North Africa and thus Europe and the Middle East through Saharan trade routes which I think the provinces in the game are meant to represent. Similar to the Swahili coast, Islam would begin to enter the region throughout the period.
West Africa is then partially separated from Central Africa by the Congo River Basin, isolating the various societies between the River Basin and the Kalahari Desert. This probably forms the most developed region in Africa that lacks substantial contact beyond Africa and though true for most of Africa, archaeological and linguistic research is still piecing together the history of the region. In spite of this, I believe there is evidence that trade may have occurred from Central Africa to East Africa but I don't think this is conclusive yet and whether this would be within the CK3 period.
There are also the various kingdoms that would begin to emerge in the period around lake Victoria though I believe these were also fairly isolated during the period.
I'd say even with the addition of down to Zanzibar, there is still a lot of East Africa that will not be on the map which did interact with at the very least, the rest of the Indian Ocean.
Maybe other people can comment further?
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They probably will just leave the lake victoria and congo areas blank but I think a basically completely isolated thunder dome would be kinda fun. Give them a single county connection sahara mode so there aren't fully unreachable lands but otherwise just a completely isolated area or two in africa sounds like fun.
I'm pretty sure they'll just make the southern edge of west africa look prettier but not go much further south and just add a strip of land on the swahili coast.
I'm pretty sure they'll just make the southern edge of west africa look prettier but not go much further south and just add a strip of land on the swahili coast.
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Yeah, I imagine only the Swahili coast will be playable for now and think the regions south of the Congo Basin only really make sense if in the future the map is expanded further south. It does make me wonder that if Kilwa really is missing from the map, does this foretell a further map expansion? As said above, feels odd to exclude given I don't see any obvious reasons to do so?
I also wonder how much along the eastern coast will be playable, most of the maps only show states along the coast but aren't there various nomadic groups just in land from the Swahili coast? And shouldn't the Oromo people or at least their ancestors be somewhere just south of where the current map ends?
I also wonder how much along the eastern coast will be playable, most of the maps only show states along the coast but aren't there various nomadic groups just in land from the Swahili coast? And shouldn't the Oromo people or at least their ancestors be somewhere just south of where the current map ends?
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I'm glad you went and caught yourself up on why you were wrong. I'd add that, for the Sultanate, by this point the dynasties of the EA city states were effectively locals I'm not sure how Kilwa conquering its neighbors challenges anything I said. Hansine kindly provides the explanation of how regions to the west of Kilwa interacted with the Swahili city states. I'm not sure where the idea that "knowledge" and "military interactions" mean the same thing came from but the spread of Swahili itself inland is a clear example of cultural interaction too
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They will extend the Africa map all the way down next year when they add the Americas
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