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unmerged(38211)

unmerged(38211)

Captain
Jan 18, 2005
410
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I have come to the conclusion that the MP option for this game really sucks.

1) people beind routers are (myself included now) having an amazing effort to try and connect despite all the usefull ( at least appeared useful) info posted by some users.
2) SYNC issues are a major pain - getting behind weeks is horrible, getting ahead is even more frustrating. Having to play on below normal speed all the time to limit this is aweful and only partially solves the problems. Playing a game from the same town with same provider offers no solution. Playing over a LAN proves slightly better of course.... but the getting ahead bug has still ocurred and has the falling behind, regardless of speed.

Any other complaints or problems are minor compared to these as they make playing a major endevour. Please fix these issues so we can all have the option of multiplayer games or remove this option and advertise it as a single player game.

Cop115
 
With all due respect doc, I just spent the last six hours in a couple MP games with many other players with no more probs than HoI. Please feel free to ask for improvements and holler for fixes, but "removing the option" because it doesn't work in MP is not an "option". Since it worked for me, and I'm having fun with it, I sure as hell wouldn't want it removed.
 
Brasidias said:
With all due respect doc, I just spent the last six hours in a couple MP games with many other players with no more probs than HoI. Please feel free to ask for improvements and holler for fixes, but "removing the option" because it doesn't work in MP is not an "option". Since it worked for me, and I'm having fun with it, I sure as hell wouldn't want it removed.
Click to expand...

You played for 6 hours and had NO out of sync issues? Did not have to reboot more than once an hour? You did not have tech unable to be developed because you were ahead of time and the cpu thought you cancelled it with 0.3% remaining? I honestly can not believe that with many people for that long that you didn't have significant issues (again, HOI 1 sucked too).

If so, please let me know what your secret is. I have played maybe 20 now and always the results posted above. Now I know you said that the issues are no worse than HOI1 but I'm sorry I expect more.

Honestly if you think its ok.... even just you.... then I rescind my statement about getting rid of it. But for me, its very frustrating especially coming from someone who considers themselves a fanboy. I expect more from a new version of a game.
 
Certainly don't remove multiplayer! Heck, if they did that I wouldn't buy or play HoI 2.

Unfortunately saying that it's "no worse than HoI" is basically saying it's still horribly unacceptable.

What both of you don't mention is the speed you are playing at. Brasidias, I'm guessing your group all have good CPUs and keep the game speed low (Normal or Below Normal). cop115, I'm guessing at least one of your group may not have a hot CPU and you're probably pushing the speed to "above normal". And of course the quality of all network connections is going to be important.
 
My somewhat limited experience of MP HoI2 is that it is incredibly stable. Have not seen any time lag or CTDs. Only problem has been during the setup of the MP game, with issues such as some players not being able to see what others write etc, but these are just minor issues. So far I think it is a considerable improvement from HoI1, especially given the fact that we are only on the 1st patch so far.
 
Mithel - I have a 3.4 processor (with all that comes with that generation, 256mb graphics card, etc) and I am forced to play on below normal... not normal, because I get too many lag spikes. I have played locally with cable with a bud with the same provider accross town and the issues are no different.

Madviking - Would love ta play ya some time. Contact me next weekend so we can play our stable game.

If someone who says they have no problems would like to set up a game on the weekend where I can join I would love to see what I am doing wrong. I would settle for only having to load once a year and not getting behind/ahead time. Is that too much? I use voice software to ensure everyone is on the same date/time. One big one is the lag spikes (frozen spikes, too be more specific). At random times the game... and voice.... stops for 10 seconds or so for the client. This puts them behind and begins the ctd/OOS (out of sync) issues. One thing I have said on other threads is that at below normal speed (and so-so with normal speed) the clients can catch up at pauses.

Fixing the ahead OOS problem would make LANing much better, but I still don't see how internet play is playable (my definition is at LEAST normal speed, loading once a year due to crashes OR OOS, and 0-2 OOS per year).

Please, in all seriousness. Tell me what you consider "working fine" and what you have done to achieve the best results if they are non standard as I have exhausted all that I know how.

Cop115
AKA - the DR.
 
cop115 said:
One big one is the lag spikes (frozen spikes, too be more specific). At random times the game... and voice.... stops for 10 seconds or so for the client.

Please, in all seriousness. Tell me what you consider "working fine" and what you have done to achieve the best results if they are non standard as I have exhausted all that I know how.
Click to expand...

One thing that always causes the game to freeze is the monthly autosave. Don't know if this is what is causing your problems, since the autosave will cause it to freeze for all players.

Definition of "working fine": I've had around 2 years game time without any CTD or similar, only problem is the usual stuff form HoI1 with events not firing properly. I don't know what our maximum speed was, but I think it was mostly on normal. I find this quite enough.

Stuff to consider:
1) Not running any other programs in the background (definately NO filesharing stuff)
2) All players having reasonably fast internet connection (no modems or slow stuff like that)
3) All players being on the same continent (don't mix USA/Canadians with Europeans in a game)

Btw I myself have a PIII 1 GHz with 256 MB RAM and 32 MB gfx card. Yeah, that's a rather sucky computer but I have had no problems with this at all.
 
Madviking - I have autosave set for every 3 months. Was doing this because of the CTD and constant need to reboot for OOS errors. Perhaps you are right though. I will try making sure that the games use no autosave and test that. Also, as to things in the background I have yahoo messanger and thats it. The only thing I can think of for the 10 second issues is something trying to access the internet (check for updates, yahoo checking mail silently, etc). It could very well be an issue related to me exclusively, but as I am no CPU pro I have no idea how to check to see if anything is accessing the internet.
Also, I don't think any of these issues is related to CPU speed (unless ridiculously low) or user location (net lag) as through trial and error these haven't had a significant impact. at least not nearly as bad as the issues listed above. Another thing I alluded to in another post is that it could be ab issue with the provider (again I have NO knowledge here so if anyone does PLEASE let me know) having some kind of pause in network traffic. PLEASE RESPOND IF ANYONE KNOWS ANY ISSUES REGARDING THIS.

Well I hope everyone else is enjoying it. I will continue to try and hopefully with more input I can resolve my issues to a point I can agree with you all.

Cop115
AKA - the DR.
 
cop115 said:
Madviking - I have autosave set for every 3 months. Was doing this because of the CTD and constant need to reboot for OOS errors. Perhaps you are right though. I will try making sure that the games use no autosave and test that. Also, as to things in the background I have yahoo messanger and thats it. The only thing I can think of for the 10 second issues is something trying to access the internet (check for updates, yahoo checking mail silently, etc). It could very well be an issue related to me exclusively, but as I am no CPU pro I have no idea how to check to see if anything is accessing the internet.
Also, I don't think any of these issues is related to CPU speed (unless ridiculously low) or user location (net lag) as through trial and error these haven't had a significant impact. at least not nearly as bad as the issues listed above. Another thing I alluded to in another post is that it could be ab issue with the provider (again I have NO knowledge here so if anyone does PLEASE let me know) having some kind of pause in network traffic. PLEASE RESPOND IF ANYONE KNOWS ANY ISSUES REGARDING THIS.

Well I hope everyone else is enjoying it. I will continue to try and hopefully with more input I can resolve my issues to a point I can agree with you all.

Cop115
AKA - the DR.
Click to expand...

UPLOAD SPEED ON THE HOST IS EVERYTHING.

I have played a couple games on a 256k up connection and saw most of these issues. Had the opportunity to play on a full T-1 (1.5Mbps up/down) a couple days ago and the difference was night and day. No time-shifts, no lag.

Make sure the host has a high upload speed or you will always see these problems. I upped my broadband connection to 6m down 768k up. Seeing no issues with up to 4 players.
 
Mp

MadViking's experience clearly is not universal. I would expect that far more people have a lot of problems than will identifiy with MadViking. HOI 2 is, in my experience so far, a minimal improvement over HOI 1 in MP. It is disappointing to me to find so many long-standing HOI 1 MP bugs still present. It adds to the overall belief that Paradox cares not at all about MP.

As for the suggestion for a 1936 MP scenario, if Paradox cares enough about MP to fix the moddir bug, some friends and I are ready to move into testing a MP mod designed to balance the game for historical realism (not necessarily accuracy) and MP playability. It's called Clash of Titans, and I hope it will provide a balanced, exciting MP experience.
 
I am very angry - the beta testers said mp was flawless and a great improvment but reality is that it is a horrible POS...

Most games put sync code in the game to slow the game down while slower machines catch up but nooooo Paradox sees no value in making MP stable...

The #1 reason I got HOI2 was that the MP was supposed to be "FIXED" - now I find it is the same crappy net code they have been pushing on us for years.

As of right now this is the last Paradox game I am getting until they completey review and redo their whole net code library cuz whatever they developed just plain sucks ass...
 
HerrGeneral said:
MadViking's experience clearly is not universal. I would expect that far more people have a lot of problems than will identifiy with MadViking. HOI 2 is, in my experience so far, a minimal improvement over HOI 1 in MP. It is disappointing to me to find so many long-standing HOI 1 MP bugs still present. It adds to the overall belief that Paradox cares not at all about MP.

As for the suggestion for a 1936 MP scenario, if Paradox cares enough about MP to fix the moddir bug, some friends and I are ready to move into testing a MP mod designed to balance the game for historical realism (not necessarily accuracy) and MP playability. It's called Clash of Titans, and I hope it will provide a balanced, exciting MP experience.
Click to expand...

Better rename it "Crash of Titans"...
 
HerrGeneral said:
As for the suggestion for a 1936 MP scenario, if Paradox cares enough about MP to fix the moddir bug, some friends and I are ready to move into testing a MP mod designed to balance the game for historical realism (not necessarily accuracy) and MP playability. It's called Clash of Titans, and I hope it will provide a balanced, exciting MP experience.
Click to expand...
The moddir problem was fixed for HoI 1 in 1.06c (Platinum). Do you have a reason to think that it has returned in HoI 2?

I don't understand the difference you imply between realism and accuracy. And I think your choice of 36 for an ideal MP scenario is unwise. This date is unsuitable because:

* because most countries are at peace for long periods, there's a desire to run the clock quickly. This then causes lag/sync problems and crashes.

* If the OOBs are historical then the Axis powers are all very weak and it's difficult for them to reproduce their remarkable successes which depended heavily upon bluff and luck. Because the Allies and Comintern have hindsight, they won't make the same foolish mistakes.

Other folk have thought that 1938 is a better start year. Myself, I'm fairly content with the 1939 scenario.

Andrew
 
Colonel Warden said:
The moddir problem was fixed for HoI 1 in 1.06c (Platinum). Do you have a reason to think that it has returned in HoI 2?
Click to expand...

The moddir bug has been discussed in a couple of threads, for example
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184291

Difficult to track bugs for normal users of course, since there is no bug forum on the Paradox boards or any feedback at all.

I too have to say that I'm really disappointed in Paradox's approach to MP. The code is abysmal, the same problems have been with us for years. I thought that Paradox was more interested in MP seeing the direction HOI started to take in the late patches, but it seems that is not the case. Now I have a feeling they don't care about MP, which is ironic, as their games are ideal for that, and have the potential to be the best (indeed, despite the flaws they are one of the best). I also don't understand one thing - many of HOI2 MP problems can be picked out after 1 MP game, perhaps there are not enough MP beta players? As I'm mostly interested in MP games (the AI is not, and never will be any challenge at all), I will be very careful before I buy a Paradox game again.
 
korny said:
I am very angry - the beta testers said mp was flawless and a great improvment but reality is that it is a horrible POS...
Click to expand...

I'm a beta tester for HOI2 and I never made such a claim. I'd think you'd want to avoid using such generalizations when being inflammatory.

My experiences with HOI2 MP (6 players) has shown the lag spikes many people mention. Slower game speeds do reduce these but even at below normal with a 500k up host connection, there are 2-5 hour lag spikes 2-3 times a game day. I find HOI2 MP to be more stable than HOI but I also find HOI2 more laggy. I've also found that there are a few co-op problems which has led my MP group to have a dislike for using it.

I agree with Aelbric, if one can find a host with a big up pipe, the lag issues disappear and results in very smooth game play. The problem is that most people are not going to be able to find a host with such a pipe.

My group uses a host with a 500k up pipe. We experience the lag spikes but we find them tolerable since we enjoy the MP game play otherwise. Each player will obviously need to decide for themselves if they feel it is playable for them or not.
 
Bluestew said:
I'm a beta tester for HOI2 and I never made such a claim. I'd think you'd want to avoid using such generalizations when being inflammatory.

My experiences with HOI2 MP (6 players) has shown the lag spikes many people mention. Slower game speeds do reduce these but even at below normal with a 500k up host connection, there are 2-5 hour lag spikes 2-3 times a game day. I find HOI2 MP to be more stable than HOI but I also find HOI2 more laggy. I've also found that there are a few co-op problems which has led my MP group to have a dislike for using it.

I agree with Aelbric, if one can find a host with a big up pipe, the lag issues disappear and results in very smooth game play. The problem is that most people are not going to be able to find a host with such a pipe.

My group uses a host with a 500k up pipe. We experience the lag spikes but we find them tolerable since we enjoy the MP game play otherwise. Each player will obviously need to decide for themselves if they feel it is playable for them or not.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. At least I know its not a techincal problem on my end. Can you answer this? What are the 10 second interuptions? Is this game-related or provider/internet related. At below normal lag is, as you said and I agree, maneageable. This being said games take forever so again I agree that one must have a considerable amount of time to play and be prepeared for doing nothing for a large period of time. I can handle that. Its the 10 second black holes for the client that are game killers as this puts you days behind, and a crash is usually followed shortly after due to OOS ( or at least severe frustration in attacking/research/sliders etc.).
 
I can't tell you the exact cause for the spurts of lag. The spikes we experience are generally just 2-4 game hours, so while annoying, they are managable. Apparently there is too much communication required between the host and the client systems for a standard 384k or less up pipe to handle the traffic. While the host's bandwidth is the major concern, it is also important for the host to have a speedy computer. A marginal host system with average bandwidth is going to wreck havoc on game stability.

My group plays a modified 39 scenario. It starts on 1 August 39 and everyone is at peace. So the action begins quickly and once the shooting starts, everyone but the US and USSR player are very content to keep the game speed at below normal. Once all player positions are engaged in battle, we've had occasional requests to slow it another notch. Things in HOI2 happen a bit faster than they did in HOI.

With a couple years of HOI experience as a MP group, we decided that the 36 scenario is NOT the scenario best suited to MP play. We are striving for a balanced 39 scenario with the Allies & USSR vs the Axis. Obviously we somewhat weaken the USSR and have juiced up the Axis nations. We'll continue to make tweaks for balance but so far so good.
 
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