AGC & EEP, "Byzantium"

[unmerged(17614)]

Some things regarding the Byzantine Empire:

- they considered themselves to be Romans, they named themselves Romanoi, and that is also what they were called by the Arabs and Ottomans.

- they were not only the East-Roman empire, they were the Roman empire, plain and simple. History books often say that the West-Roman Empire 'perished' in 476 AD, but this is inaccurate. After the last West-Roman emperor was dethroned, the senate handed the Western part over to the East-Roman emperor Zeno, thereby reuniting the empire. That Germanic guy who dethroned Augustulus ruled Italy in Zeno's place, and coins with Zeno's head on it were used in Italy.
Therefore, if they would get the chance, I believe the Byzantines would surely have wanted to reconquer Italy.

- I believe Trebizond should be a core country. Even though it formed its own empire eventually, it was culturally similar to Constantinople, was inhabited by Greeks and was long an important part of the empire.

 

[Garbon]

Originally posted by Alfihar
- they were not only the East-Roman empire, they were the Roman empire, plain and simple. History books often say that the West-Roman Empire 'perished' in 476 AD, but this is inaccurate. After the last West-Roman emperor was dethroned, the senate handed the Western part over to the East-Roman emperor Zeno, thereby reuniting the empire. That Germanic guy who dethroned Augustulus ruled Italy in Zeno's place, and coins with Zeno's head on it were used in Italy.
Therefore, if they would get the chance, I believe the Byzantines would surely have wanted to reconquer Italy.

476 to 1419 is roughly 1000 years right? So thats 'at least', 1000 years prior that Rome was held? I don't think anyone is going to accept a claim on land that was held a 1000 years before, even taking into account your testimony that the Eastern bit was still the Roman Empire.

 

[Caliga]

Dogface, I like your initial proposal but I think Cyprus should probably get a CB shield on it to start, owing to the large Greek population there which Byzantium certainly thought it should be ruling over.

 

[Twoflower]

Originally posted by Garbon
476 to 1419 is roughly 1000 years right? So thats 'at least', 1000 years prior that Rome was held? I don't think anyone is going to accept a claim on land that was held a 1000 years before, even taking into account your testimony that the Eastern bit was still the Roman Empire.

Not to mention that the Palaeologoi were not even the legitimate successors of the empire (Michael Palaelogus was just an usurper who had used a crisis in Nicaea to seize power).

 

[Wulfram]

Originally posted by Garbon
476 to 1419 is roughly 1000 years right? So thats 'at least', 1000 years prior that Rome was held? I don't think anyone is going to accept a claim on land that was held a 1000 years before, even taking into account your testimony that the Eastern bit was still the Roman Empire.

Rome was held until 750ish actually (Edit: After Justinian's reconquest that is). Anyway, while it's not the best claim in the world, 50,000 men marching through Rome's streets could make it a better one.

However, I don't think they would be really interested in taking Rome. Southern Italy and Sicily certainly - they made a respectable attempt at reconquest in Manuel I's reign, and there was still a fair amount of Greeks in the 15th century - but Northern Italy never seems to have been a massive priority.

Originally posted by Twoflower
Not to mention that the Palaeologoi were not even the legitimate successors of the empire (Michael Palaelogus was just an usurper who had used a crisis in Nicaea to seize power).

By those standards, the last legitimate emperor was Nero.

Anyway, Michael VIII had a connection to some Imperial families, he was crowned by the Patriarch and, most importantly, he was able to take control and not get assassinated. That's about as good a claim as can be expected of a Roman Emperor.

 

[unmerged(17614)]

Originally posted by Twoflower
Not to mention that the Palaeologoi were not even the legitimate successors of the empire (Michael Palaelogus was just an usurper who had used a crisis in Nicaea to seize power).

But then again, starting in the 3nd century ad, emperors were murdered and replaced every other month at times. Or what about the succesion of Nero, when 4 subsequent emperors where made emperor by their troups, only to be killed by the next guy, all within one year.

I agree with Wulfram, Sicily and South-Italy were certainly a goal for reconquest for the Byzantine Empire. When they temporarily partialy succeded in doing so (11th century I believe) they were very happy.

 

[unmerged(9145)]

I'm always get leery when people start talking about handing out shields on this and that. Because the game uses the shield to essentially kill nationalism after conquest, I'm of the opinion it should only be applied to those areas which would, indeed, accept the rule of the conquerors without the 30 years of revolt risk.

Regardless of what Byzantium claimed, or even what was recognized, I seriously doubt that some of the territories being discussed here would qualify for shield status. In fact, I rather think the inhabitants wouldn't see this as 'reunification', but rather the imposition of a foreign (or yet another foreign) ruler.

Shields on greek culture areas I could see - the entire civil administration of Byzantium was dominated by greeks. I'd be quite skeptical of granting shield status to anything non-Greek, though.

Rather, what you might consider as an alternative is to modify the Byzantium ai file to encourage Byzantium to conquer those areas it had an interest in. The ai would then try to reunite the ancient empire, even though the peoples in the former empire have long since lost any ties or affiliation with the rulers and people of Byzantium. The end effect would be a restored Byzantium without the semi-unified culture that marked Byzantium at its height.

And didn't I read somewhere that you could now replace a nation's ai via event? If true, you could focus the Byzantium ai's efforts by directing it towards specific provinces, then replacing the ai by event when/if it conquers those provinces to move on to the next stage of the 'grand plan'.

Finally, handing out cultures based on conquest doesn't happen elsewhere in EU2 (with the exception of the pre-1.07 dutch) so why should Byzantium get any new cultures? From what I can tell the only culture it really deserves is greek, and cultures aren't assimilated in the game by conquest - so why do this for Byzantium and only Byzantium? I don't see any justification for singling out this one nation, in all the world, for these special privileges.

If the argument is that without these cultures Byzantium couldn't survive then two points:

a) well, that's pretty bloody historical, so good;
b) about a year ago I crafted a series of fantasy events to restore the Greek empire, part of which involved absorbing Byzantium and laying claim to Byzantium's ancient holdings. The greeks didn't get any new cultures, although they did get CB shields on greek territories and the western half of Anatolia (slowly, through intermediary steps). After five straight losses (hey, you try surviving as Greece against the Turks!) I managed to actually pull off the entire imperial route on the sixth try, even going so far as to conquer the Ottomans and Egypt. So if it's possible to do this as Greece without excessive CB shields and new cultures, it's certainly possible to do this as Byzantium. It'll be tough but that's part of the fun.

Max

 

[Sute]{h]

Maxpublic does have a point here. But since this is fantasy we could work our way around it. Instead of giving cultures as the simple result of conquest, we could create an event out of receiving the culture. Something like:

Trigger: controls 2-3 provinces of a culture which was formerly controlled by the eastern empire.
Option A: Let the XXX become an equal part of our great empire: -6 stability, 3% revoltrisk for 30 years, gain culture, +2 innovative, -1 serfdom.
Option B: The XXX are our servants not our equals: +1 stability, -2 innovative, +1 serfdom.

Also shield on said cultures provinces should be granted like the way the English gains shields on France. Meaning if one chose option A one gain the ability to trigger events giving shields on provinces of said culture, which was formerly under Byzantiene control.

Also certain cultures should modify your relations. If you accept for example turkish culture as your own your relations with the muslim world should improve, while your relation with the christian world should decrease.

 

[Caliga]

I agree with maxpublic, and that's actually why I suggested a CB on Cyprus to start for Byzantium.

 

[unmerged(17614)]

Originally posted by maxpublic
Regardless of what Byzantium claimed, or even what was recognized, I seriously doubt that some of the territories being discussed here would qualify for shield status. In fact, I rather think the inhabitants wouldn't see this as 'reunification', but rather the imposition of a foreign (or yet another foreign) ruler.

Shields on greek culture areas I could see - the entire civil administration of Byzantium was dominated by greeks. I'd be quite skeptical of granting shield status to anything non-Greek, though.

Sicilly, parts of South-Italy and Trebizond had Greek culture back then though.

 

[unmerged(9145)]

Another option is not to give the Byzantines other cultures, but to allow them to enforce the culture through a series of events, drawn out over time - in effect, the Empire is resettling the conquered areas with Greeks (both from Byzantium and from other Greek areas) and after the population becomes large enough they can drive out the natives, much like Spain does to the Moors. Here's some example events from my Greek Empire fantasy series which do just that:

#Vengeance Against the Turks#
event = {
id = 23047
trigger = {
owned = { province = 474 data = -1 } # Sivas
owned = { province = 476 data = -1 } # Angora
owned = { province = 477 data = -1 } # Anatolia
owned = { province = 482 data = -1 } # Konya
owned = { province = 483 data = -1 } # Adana
owned = { province = 1609 data = -1 } # Kastamonu
owned = { province = 1610 data = -1 } # Antalya
owned = { province = 1611 data = -1 } # Taurus
}

random = NO
country = GRE
style = 2

date = { day = 30 month = january year = 1525 }
offset = 0

name = "Vengeance Against the Turks"
desc = "The Turks had enslaved the Greeks for centuries, yet Anatolia now lay firmly under the control of the Empire of Greece. The question now arose: should the Turks be incorporated into the Empire peaceably, or should they be driven from Anatolia and the land be settled by Greek natives and immigrants?"

action_a = { #Yes#
name = "Purge the infidels from Anatolia!"
command = { type = stability value = -5 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -3 }
command = { type = revolt which = 474 }
command = { type = revolt which = 476 }
command = { type = revolt which = 477 }
command = { type = revolt which = 482 }
command = { type = revolt which = 483 }
command = { type = revolt which = 1609 }
command = { type = revolt which = 1610 }
command = { type = revolt which = 1611 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 474 value = 12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 476 value = 12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 477 value = 12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 482 value = 12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 483 value = 12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1609 value = 12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1610 value = 12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1611 value = 12 }
command = { type = population which = 474 value = -7500 }
command = { type = population which = 476 value = -7500 }
command = { type = population which = 477 value = -7500 }
command = { type = population which = 482 value = -7500 }
command = { type = population which = 483 value = -7500 }
command = { type = population which = 1609 value = -7500 }
command = { type = population which = 1610 value = -7500 }
command = { type = population which = 1611 value = -7500 }
command = { type = sleepevent which = 23049 }
command = { type = trigger which = 23050 }
command = { type = trigger which = 23051 }
command = { type = trigger which = 23052 }
}

action_b = { #No#
name = "Things are fine as they are"
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 2 }
command = { type = sleepevent which = 23048 }
}
}

#Anatolia Cleansed#
event = {
id = 23048
trigger = {
event = 23047
}

random = NO
country = GRE
style = 2

date = { day = 30 month = january year = 1545 }
offset = 0

name = "Anatolia Cleansed"
desc = "Although the native Turks had resisted fiercely, Anatolia was finally cleansed of their presence. Now the peninsula was Greek, as it should be, unspoiled by Turkish heathens."

action_a = { #Good#
name = "Anatolia is ours!"
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 474 value = -12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 476 value = -12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 477 value = -12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 482 value = -12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 483 value = -12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1609 value = -12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1610 value = -12 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1611 value = -12 }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 474 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 476 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 477 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 482 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 483 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 1609 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 1610 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 1611 value = greek }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 474 value = orthodox }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 476 value = orthodox }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 477 value = orthodox }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 482 value = orthodox }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 483 value = orthodox }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 1609 value = orthodox }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 1610 value = orthodox }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 1611 value = orthodox }
command = { type = addcore which = 474 }
command = { type = addcore which = 476 }
command = { type = addcore which = 477 }
command = { type = addcore which = 482 }
command = { type = addcore which = 483 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1609 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1610 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1611 }
}
}

#Greek Incorporation of Anatolia#
event = {
id = 23049
trigger = { event = 23047
owned = { province = 474 data = -1 } # Sivas
owned = { province = 476 data = -1 } # Angora
owned = { province = 477 data = -1 } # Anatolia
owned = { province = 482 data = -1 } # Konya
owned = { province = 483 data = -1 } # Adana
owned = { province = 1609 data = -1 } # Kastamonu
owned = { province = 1610 data = -1 } # Antalya
owned = { province = 1611 data = -1 } # Taurus
}

random = NO
country = GRE
style = 3

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1675 }
offset = 10

name = "The Greek Incorporation of Anatolia"
desc = "After many decades, Greek settlers have mixed with the locals and converted them to Greek culture. The result is prosperity for all."

action_a = { #Ok#
name = "OK"
command = { type = provinceculture which = 474 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 476 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 477 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 482 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 483 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 1609 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 1610 value = greek }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 1611 value = greek }
command = { type = population which = 474 value = 5000 }
command = { type = population which = 476 value = 5000 }
command = { type = population which = 477 value = 5000 }
command = { type = population which = 482 value = 5000 }
command = { type = population which = 483 value = 5000 }
command = { type = population which = 1609 value = 5000 }
command = { type = population which = 1610 value = 5000 }
command = { type = population which = 1611 value = 5000 }
command = { type = addcore which = 474 }
command = { type = addcore which = 476 }
command = { type = addcore which = 477 }
command = { type = addcore which = 482 }
command = { type = addcore which = 483 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1609 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1610 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1611 }
}
}

As you can see, you can choose either the violent, more damaging, but quicker method of converting the provinces, or you can do so peaceably over a longer period of time. I chose the violent method and nearly lost the entire empire to revolts over the next 20 years. I chose a 20-year revolt period because I assumed that it would take at least one generation to drive out the Turks and replace them with good, Orthodox Greeks (but note the population hits - I'm not sure that violent incorporation was an economically sound alternative in the long run).

Also note you only get shields *after* you've either managed to clear out the Turks and replace them with Greek immigrants, or after the Turks have been assimilated over 150 years of occupation. And in any event, no new cultures are given to the Greeks at all. Even so, I did manage to pull off the entire Imperial Restoration scheme, and then some - so if the Greeks in my fantasy series can do it, so can the Byzantines, and without extra shields or cultures (at least until *after* they successfully occupy the lands in question).

Max

 

[Sute]{h]

That idea is viable as well... actually I would like to have the option of either integrating the cultures into my empire or forcing my culture upon the conquered lands. That way one can either play nice or be an ass...

 

[unmerged(2810)]

It has been said that the past is a different country. When dealing with the Christian Roman Empire, one could argue that the past is a different planet. Ideas of "nationality" and "culture" were not the same in the Roman or Ottoman Empires. Yes, in the first Greek-speakers ran everything and in the second Turkish-speakers ran everything, but the idea of what made on a Roman or a Turk was not as politicodarwinian as modern ideas of "you are born a Turk" or "you are born a "Greek".

I do agree that CB shields have been handed out too freely in some older proposals and that it can be too easy to get a "new" culture in some proposals, but the Eastern Empires did not grow up in the same milieu as did the Western Nation States. Their approach to "the nationalities question" was often more flexible.

 

[unmerged(2810)]

Another way of putting it is this: The "Greeks" of the 15th century had far more in common with the "Turks", culturally, than they would have had with the "Anglosaxons" or the "Han", but according to the game, they are all perfectly culturally equidistant from each other.

I realize it is not possible to recode culture effects directly, but it does argue to the possiblity that some "closer" culture countries might have more justification for adding such culture groups to their mix, given the right circumstances.

Of course, this is a cline. The Empire could move towards incorporating Slav, Italian, Turkish, or Syrian cultures (depending on event chain outcomes). But anything else would be too distant.

 

[Sute]{h]

All of which cultures which I could accept in a resurgent Byzantine empire, but the price for receiving the cultures should IMHO be high. Not overwheming but simply high...

Also I could quite easily accept that not all cultures be available in each game. If the empire turns east Turkish and Syrian makes sense. Likewise if the empire turns west Italian and Slav makes sense. Should one choose the balanced road the cultures which makes the most sense would be Turkish and Slav.

 

[unmerged(9145)]

Dogface:

I definitely agree with your point, at least where it concerns the Ottoman Empire. During the early time frame of the game the Ottomans were known to be both liberal and tolerant of other peoples, and they also employed a mostly Greek bureaucracy (those Greeks, they sure do get around...). I don't think it's a stretch to claim that the Ottomans of 1419 were one of the most civilized empires in all the world. They were certainly more civilized than any European power at that time.

The Byzantines, however, have lost any claim to multiculturalism they once had by the start of 1419. They're mostly Greek now, and whatever affinity they once had with other folks has dwindled over the years. Now if you argued that the Byzantines of 1219 should be able to get, or have, Slavic culture I'd say "sure, sounds reasonable", but the Byzatines of 1419 would, I think, be viewed as conquerors just like any other.

However, to argue against my own point, any revival of Byzantium is essentially a fantasy event, much like my own Greek Empire series. It's a fun idea to entertain, and even more fun to play, but the odds of it actually occurring given the situation are very, very tiny. In that light, adding certain cultures to Byzantium isn't unreasonable - you're already treading into the Twilight Zone, so why not?

Max

 

[unmerged(2810)]

Originally posted by maxpublic
However, to argue against my own point, any revival of Byzantium is essentially a fantasy event, much like my own Greek Empire series. It's a fun idea to entertain, and even more fun to play, but the odds of it actually occurring given the situation are very, very tiny.

And a way to handle that is to have the "Let's be Greek bastards" decisions be the "A" choice.

As far as I'm concerned, the entire game is just a constrained fantasy from the moment it starts. After all, if I'm permitted in England to vassalize France with a series of lightning blows starting in 1419, sweet-talk them into joining my alliance, and then diplomatically annex them (which I've done in a "non-fantasy" game many times), how is that any more "fantasy" than the Empire regaining its cosmopolitan identity?

 

[unmerged(9145)]

Originally posted by Dogface
And a way to handle that is to have the "Let's be Greek bastards" decisions be the "A" choice.

As far as I'm concerned, the entire game is just a constrained fantasy from the moment it starts. After all, if I'm permitted in England to vassalize France with a series of lightning blows starting in 1419, sweet-talk them into joining my alliance, and then diplomatically annex them (which I've done in a "non-fantasy" game many times), how is that any more "fantasy" than the Empire regaining its cosmopolitan identity?

Well, it seems we're agreed then.

In terms of fantasy my definition for the game (and only in terms of *events*, mind you, not how the game itself plays - which we can't touch without access to the source code) goes like this:

- is it reasonably possible, if an outside chance? If so, then it's not fantasy.

- is it so whacky that it beggars the imagination of ever actually occurring, given the history of the involved parties? If so, then it's fantasy.

From this point I guess what matters is whether you take a 'low' fantasy approach or a 'high' fantasy approach. By 'low' fantasy, I mean you try to model the most logical, rationale outcome based upon changing a few initial conditions which didn't otherwise exist. Using my Greek Empire campaign again, my assumption was simple: what if someone like Philip of Macedonia had lived during the opening of the 1419 campaign? Someone capable of uniting the Greeks and firing their passion for imperialism? Once that initial (and historically absent) assumption was accepted, I tried to model everything from that point on without resorting to 'high' fantasy elements - hence, no unnecessary CB shields and no additional cultures.

After that, I tested to the model to see if it would work. After all, if it didn't it wouldn't be any fun, now would it? After five utter defeats, I managed to fulfill the restoration of the Empire on the sixth try - and more. This was an acceptable 'success rate' for a low fantasy campaign, in my mind, so I considered the project to be reasonably balanced.

Your approach to Byzantium is going to be very much determined by which route you want to take. Either:

- you want to take the 'low' fantasy road and allow for the restoration of the Empire, although with a low chance of success (and without giving the Empire cultures/shields which it wouldn't deserve, given the other initial starting conditions); or

- you want to take the 'high' fantasy road and make for an easier restoration, primarily for the purpose of just being able to play Byzantium without getting your ass kicked five out of six times.

Where your ultimate 'fun factor' lies is going to determine your approach. I prefer the low fantasy style; you might prefer the high fantasy style. Neither, I think, is more correct than the other. As this is just a piece of entertainment, I'd argue for 'whatever floats your boat', even if it would sink mine. ;-)

Max

 

[unmerged(8894)]

I do agree that some additional cultures should be allowed just make them hard to get. Possibly needing b and c options in several parts of the event chain to get them and having major bad points. Also we should be very careful of what cultures are allowed. Also making it not possible to get all allowed in the same game. Start with Greek and depending on how you build your empire perhaps allow Slav, Syrian and Turk. I could see arguements for Romanian and albanian in some ways and maybe armenian though personally I would steer away from that. I can't see any really good arguement<though would be willing to read any presented> for Arabic, Kurdish, Italian or if its included Ukranian as its not reasonable to accept even in a fantasy way those cultures accepting Roman rule, though certain important provinces that house those cultures could be changed to more suitable ones. With Byzantium I can see allowing more fantasy than anywhere else as its rather fun and a popular choice to rebuild the Eastern Roman Empire but we do need to take care not to go too overboard here.

 

[Garbon]

Originally posted by Azog
With Byzantium I can see allowing more fantasy than anywhere else as its rather fun and a popular choice to rebuild the Eastern Roman Empire but we do need to take care not to go too overboard here.

So true.