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zdlugasz said:
Actually that is good, as Crimea is too readily diploannexed anyway. Or was when it was getting vassalized.
zdlugasz said:
So far, this sounds like a core but not actual ownership. The lands around there were often claimed by many people.
Garbon said:
OK
Garbon said:
core for Jedisan (and removal later to minimize possibility for conflicts with OE) also Donieck, but I was thinking about ownership of Krementjug.
I will post later map, however I can not do pictures easily (do not own camera)
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Golden Horde: should not event 287027 secede provinces to Astrakhan as well? (after independece astrakhan will be one-province minor and may be quickly destroyes, or Rusia invading GH will capture future Astrakhan's provinces too early), however on the opposite side this might make GH one-province minor (which is historical I suppose)
Previously reported GH provinces behind Ural might have been result of bad trigger for 287027 .
after new trigger in 287027 GH will decline faster thus it may happen that CRI event with cessations will not ever happen (if GH is annexed before 1500), thus I propose to change dat eof GH event 287003 from 1500 to 1466 or at least 1487 (Russia get her claims on East)
Previously reported GH provinces behind Ural might have been result of bad trigger for 287027 .
after new trigger in 287027 GH will decline faster thus it may happen that CRI event with cessations will not ever happen (if GH is annexed before 1500), thus I propose to change dat eof GH event 287003 from 1500 to 1466 or at least 1487 (Russia get her claims on East)
Event 3689 (The Disintegration of the Golden Horde) shouldn't cause it to fall much quicker. After all, Crimea still has to declare war on it and such. The event that lets Crimea annex the horde exists to allow Crimea to historically take over the Horde, at the proper time. The independence of Astrakhan is certainly not the time for that. Thus, I don't think the date should be moved forward. If the Golden Horde is conquered early then one makes due with how that conquering occurred. Changing historical dates for approx 50 years earlier is not a way of doing that.
Garbon said:
In my last game I havent seen Crimea declaring war on GH even a single time (Crimea does not even have core there). It was Russia who declared a few wars against GH and finally about 1510 captured Volgograd, which triggered Game Over for GH.
I am just afraid that now, with correct trigger GH will be much smaller and easier to destroy by Russia, and because GH will own Uralsk, Solikamsk etc. these provinces will be captured by Russia before 1500.
On the other hand in my last game Astrakhan was quite aggressive, and this may end really badly for one province minor (as did).
Edit: and since Russia gets most of cores in 1487 lets say that inheritance of GH could start in 1490 - it is 10 years only (I am not advocating for 50 years shift)
THE ULTIMATE PROBLEM IS RUSSIA - it gets cores too early (Kazan conquered in 1552, Astrakhan 1556)
Wow, so this sounds like there should be a fix to Russia, not a shift of this event's date earlier.
I guess that this should go to some Crimean thread or Lithuanian or Russian.
I have another maps (quite new), I hope I can make pictures next week:
- first from about half of XVth century and Jedisan and Krementjug belongs more or less to Crimea but Donieck to Lithuania.
- second - silimar to previously shown: Jedysan (OE since 1526) and Krementjug are marked as terrains dependent on Lithuania (map descriptions say; Poland and Lithuania under Jagiello dynasty - so XV and first half of XVI century
- third says that Donieck, Krementjug and Jedisan were under control of Lithuania at the end of 15th century
Dates of Muscovy conquests and acquisitions (sometimes transcription of Polish names):
- duchy of Ryazan 1521
- Pskov 1510
- Novgorof 1478
- Tver 1485
- Kazan 1552 (but city Samara 1558)
- Astrakhan 1556 (city Ufa in 1572)
mostly against Lithuania and its vassals
- vassal duchy Wierchowskie (Vierkhovske?) 1494 (located west of duchy of Ryazan, main cities: Oriel, Novosil, Odojev, Tula)
- Vielikia 1503
- Polock 1563-1570 (reconquered by Poland)
- land of Smolensk: eastern part 1503 (Viazma), western 1514 (Smolensk)
- Kursk 1503
- Novgorod Sieviersky 1503 (province Belgorod)
- area more or less of Donetsk 1503
some terrains like Smolensk, Novgorod Sieviersky were reconquered during Smuta
So it is Russia, which receives cores ahead of time (sometimes much ahead)
I have another maps (quite new), I hope I can make pictures next week:
- first from about half of XVth century and Jedisan and Krementjug belongs more or less to Crimea but Donieck to Lithuania.
- second - silimar to previously shown: Jedysan (OE since 1526) and Krementjug are marked as terrains dependent on Lithuania (map descriptions say; Poland and Lithuania under Jagiello dynasty - so XV and first half of XVI century
- third says that Donieck, Krementjug and Jedisan were under control of Lithuania at the end of 15th century
Dates of Muscovy conquests and acquisitions (sometimes transcription of Polish names):
- duchy of Ryazan 1521
- Pskov 1510
- Novgorof 1478
- Tver 1485
- Kazan 1552 (but city Samara 1558)
- Astrakhan 1556 (city Ufa in 1572)
mostly against Lithuania and its vassals
- vassal duchy Wierchowskie (Vierkhovske?) 1494 (located west of duchy of Ryazan, main cities: Oriel, Novosil, Odojev, Tula)
- Vielikia 1503
- Polock 1563-1570 (reconquered by Poland)
- land of Smolensk: eastern part 1503 (Viazma), western 1514 (Smolensk)
- Kursk 1503
- Novgorod Sieviersky 1503 (province Belgorod)
- area more or less of Donetsk 1503
some terrains like Smolensk, Novgorod Sieviersky were reconquered during Smuta
So it is Russia, which receives cores ahead of time (sometimes much ahead)
Garbon said:
I guess Russia got those earlier dates to be able to colonize Siberia and find Mongolia in 16th century and not 20th.
zdlugasz said:
Combined with YM's statement, I think the evidence is pretty much slated on fixing Russia rather than allowing for easier/earlier dismantling of the Golden Horde
No sorry, I'm wrong, everything is over for Mongolia in 1650 (see 1648 scenario). "First encounter" for AI is around 1580. I can't check RussiaInMongolia events file right now but I'm sure it is just after Mongolia turned buddhist in 1578.
YodaMaster said:
Yup, in 1648 Russia has colonies at Pacific.
Frankly speaking there is no chance that without northern passage from Kazan (better province would be that one higher) Russian AI could in 20-30 years from fall of Kazan conquer Astrakhan and Siberia and reach Mongolia.
So I am very stong supporter of of this shortcut, however some cores for Russia could be (from historical perspective should be) slightly delayed.
Regarding passivity of Crimea against Golden Horde:
at first GH is too strong, later Crimea does not have CB. What I propose is to extend CB for 100 years (or give Crimea core on Volgograd, but it can mess situation against Russia later in game).
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zdlugasz said:
Muscowy doesn't have cores on lithuania in 1450, it only gets them (after becoming russia) in 1480 or so
YodaMaster said:
Okay here is the image I promised. I also changed the capital location of Otrar in Uzbek, as it was out of place.
cities belong where the red dots are
sabular said:
Yep, sorry I mixed games/countries/events and dates. With Lithuania it was OK
As promised last week
(there is duplicate in Lithuanian's thread):
Maps with border between Russia, Lithuania and Khanates and Russian expansion
Also some comments on Russian expansion and Lithuanian posessions/cores can be found above.
Pictures are quite big - about 1MB each, should I make them smaller?
(there is duplicate in Lithuanian's thread):
Maps with border between Russia, Lithuania and Khanates and Russian expansion
Also some comments on Russian expansion and Lithuanian posessions/cores can be found above.
Pictures are quite big - about 1MB each, should I make them smaller?
I don't agree with this one, if you notice this map has a big thing for stating dates in the future, like the formation of the Crimea Khanate in 1427 and the Kazan Khanate...what is to say that these were the exact borders of Lithuania in 1419 rather than mid 15th?
Garbon said:
looking here you have borders in 1430 and also here are borders from 1430
So I do not have exact borders from 1419. Other maps sgow them from 1462 and 1494 and you will notice that area of more or less Donieck does not chage. (one of course have to decide if this is Donieck as in EU map or not)
Edit: I have also fixed one bug with incorrect map displayed.