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Is it really so confusing? People who know the history and geography of the area will understand why this was done, and people who don't won't care anyways.
The setup I advocate, I am doing the following assumptions:
I ASSUME:
a: Zeeland and Vlissingen are temporarily 'moved' to inside Holland province to keep Hainaut from being too powerful and Brabant from being too weak.
b: 99% of the time, unless you yourself are Hainaut, by 1430 it is a mute point. (Hainaut is annexed in 1428 and Brabant in 1430)
c: If you are playing as Hainaut, it is also a moot point as you will likely manage to annex Brabant anyways in 1430.
d: The alternative doesn't work out well at all
By these assumptions that I have, I believe my solution to be the best one. If my assumptions are wrong, please tell me.
MKJ I prefer your proposal, although not ideal either, above Zeeland remaining Zeeland. We are just screwed with the eu2 map 
. Have you guys seen the Victoria map for the Low Countries, it’s a huge improvement. (I guess it would be impossible to use that Victoria map at some stage for eu2)
Still some questions:
What about if Holland could somehow be strengthened, compensating for the giving eu2-province Zeeland to Brabant?
And what about giving Brabant no core on that province and also give it the Dutch revolts if owned by Brabant/Burgundy/Spain?
And what about managing the Brabant-to-strong-Netherlands-to-weak, problem with events?
BTW: This is a very informative site on the low countries. All regions, all rulers and all dates. (The more detailed parts of the site aren't in English though)
If you can’t read it (because it is Dutch) and want to know something just tell me, I’ll look it up in there.
BTSW: Artois in Dutch is Artesie.
EDIT:
Now the whole province of Zeeland and its capital is at the wrong side of the river maas (off course not as important as Brussels, but still like you mentioned yourselve, economically quite important).
. Have you guys seen the Victoria map for the Low Countries, it’s a huge improvement. (I guess it would be impossible to use that Victoria map at some stage for eu2)Still some questions:
What about if Holland could somehow be strengthened, compensating for the giving eu2-province Zeeland to Brabant?
And what about giving Brabant no core on that province and also give it the Dutch revolts if owned by Brabant/Burgundy/Spain?
And what about managing the Brabant-to-strong-Netherlands-to-weak, problem with events?
BTW: This is a very informative site on the low countries. All regions, all rulers and all dates. (The more detailed parts of the site aren't in English though)
If you can’t read it (because it is Dutch) and want to know something just tell me, I’ll look it up in there.
BTSW: Artois in Dutch is Artesie.
EDIT:
Now the whole province of Zeeland and its capital is at the wrong side of the river maas (off course not as important as Brussels, but still like you mentioned yourselve, economically quite important).
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I got a new weird idea
If we're really paying attention to the river thing, there is actually one possibility not mentioned yet which would fit - and, which is a big advantage to Noord-Brabant, joined the Union of Utrecht in 1579. The Betuwe quarter of Geldern, with Nijmegen, the oldest and one of the most important and wealthy cities of the Netherlands in the EU2 period, is situated exactly between the Maas and the Rhine, bordering Brabant in the south. The Upper quarter of Geldern, including Roermond, Geldern and Venlo, is also within the EU2 province. This is quite far from being a perfect solution (e.g. Geldre shouldn't really border Flandern, and the geographic location doesn't entirely fit, either), but it solves the river problem, it would be a territory that joined the Dutch Republic in the beginning and I'd argue that Nijmegen, Roermond and their surrounding were economically a lot more important than Noord-Brabant and Breda.
Only an idea, though..
This would imply Artois being given to the Dutch Wittelsbachs representing Hainault.
If we're really paying attention to the river thing, there is actually one possibility not mentioned yet which would fit - and, which is a big advantage to Noord-Brabant, joined the Union of Utrecht in 1579. The Betuwe quarter of Geldern, with Nijmegen, the oldest and one of the most important and wealthy cities of the Netherlands in the EU2 period, is situated exactly between the Maas and the Rhine, bordering Brabant in the south. The Upper quarter of Geldern, including Roermond, Geldern and Venlo, is also within the EU2 province. This is quite far from being a perfect solution (e.g. Geldre shouldn't really border Flandern, and the geographic location doesn't entirely fit, either), but it solves the river problem, it would be a territory that joined the Dutch Republic in the beginning and I'd argue that Nijmegen, Roermond and their surrounding were economically a lot more important than Noord-Brabant and Breda.
Only an idea, though..
This would imply Artois being given to the Dutch Wittelsbachs representing Hainault.
Weren't we decided that the North Brabant issue wouldn't deprive the Netherlands of a province?
Should Geldre be stronger than Brabant?
Should Geldre be stronger than Brabant?
Were we? IIRC we agreed that swapping from North Brabant to Zeeland would make the solution acceptable at all
"Stronger" or "more powerful / important" is such a relative thing, depending mostly on the respective person's bias. As for facts about the relative strength of Geldre, Brabant and Holland, Geldre defeated Brabant decisively in 1371 while it lost a war against Holland over Arkel in 1417. After the succession struggle in the middle of the 14th century, Brabant was really dependent on foreign support, and by 1419 a mere Burgundian sidekick.
What can be said certainly is that Geldre is supposed to survive longer in EU2 than Brabant, so they might need a second province more.
Nevertheless, Zeeland to Geldre implies one big potential problem: Before they buy Geldre in 1473, and between 1493 and 1538 (or even later), Burgundy and its Spanish heir will have no connection between Flandern and Brabant in the south and Holland in the north. It is to a certain degree historical - the Hapsburgs had huge problems fighting Karel of Geldre and lost parts of Holland to him until Charles V made a really determined effort, but nevertheless not quite right.
Originally posted by Twoflower
I got a new weird idea
If we're really paying attention to the river thing, there is actually one possibility not mentioned yet which would fit - and, which is a big advantage to Noord-Brabant, joined the Union of Utrecht in 1579. The Betuwe quarter of Geldern, with Nijmegen, the oldest and one of the most important and wealthy cities of the Netherlands in the EU2 period, is situated exactly between the Maas and the Rhine, bordering Brabant in the south. The Upper quarter of Geldern, including Roermond, Geldern and Venlo, is also within the EU2 province. This is quite far from being a perfect solution (e.g. Geldre shouldn't really border Flandern, and the geographic location doesn't entirely fit, either), but it solves the river problem, it would be a territory that joined the Dutch Republic in the beginning and I'd argue that Nijmegen, Roermond and their surrounding were economically a lot more important than Noord-Brabant and Breda.
Only an idea, though..
This would imply Artois being given to the Dutch Wittelsbachs representing Hainault.
Well, actually I was argueing NOT to pay to much attention to the river thing, because it is a hopless reference. About the Gelre plan, I think it has some things going for itself, but wouldn't Gelre get a historically unjustifiable seaconnection? If I look at the maps Brabant does seem to have a seaconnection.
I think it is always probable to survive longer, because the threat comes from the south (Burgundy) and it lies north of Brabant. I played a lot of low country games in the normal and mod scenarios, but I can't really remember Gelre ever being annexed by Burgundy earlier than Brabant, but perhaps others have?
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The only consistent threat to Geldre in my experience is (bizarrely) England.
Brabant on the other hand, has quite a few more threats to its existence.
Regardless, we need to just *decide* on a solution and stick with it if we're ever going to get anywhere with this
Brabant on the other hand, has quite a few more threats to its existence.
Regardless, we need to just *decide* on a solution and stick with it if we're ever going to get anywhere with this
This obviously is bullshit. Gelre already has a seaconnection in what was known as the "Zuiderzee" now called "IJsselmeer".
So it already has a seaconnection, also in the game, so this argument is withdrawn with a sence of shame.
That doesn't solve the issue at hand though... who gets Zeeland province?
I say Brabant to start with, but it still represents Zeeland. Brabant just gets it to represent their hold over the territory of North Brabant, and for balance.
I say Brabant to start with, but it still represents Zeeland. Brabant just gets it to represent their hold over the territory of North Brabant, and for balance.
Why not putt one of the proposals (I prefer yours) in the beta and see what everybody thinks of the setup. The beta won't be definite, so no real problem there right?
Perhaps even better is to put the different setups as an option in the config tool (but only for the beta) So beta testers can test all the setups. After a week of testing surely the best setup could be chosen. I would not know how much work it is to put it in the config utility, so just shoot me if this is a silly idea.
I suppose you mean to put in all 3 of them, right? Was there ever any awareness of the concept Belgium in the eu2 timeframe?
Yes best option sofar.
BTW is anything decided on Artois/Hainaut/Holland setup?
Will the old MKJ/EEP setup stay? Old setup =County of Holland controls Holland+artois, there are some events about ceding and getting artois to and from Burgundy untill CoH gets annexed
I like this setup
Will the name be CoH or Hainaut?
Originally posted by Ironfoundersson
Yes best option sofar.
BTW is anything decided on Artois/Hainaut/Holland setup?
Will the old MKJ/EEP setup stay? Old setup =County of Holland controls Holland+artois, there are some events about ceding and getting artois to and from Burgundy untill CoH gets annexed
I like this setup
Will the name be CoH or Hainaut?
Hainaut. However in my new sequence the ceding is unneccesary as Jan becomes ruler of Hainaut. Jaquieline doesn't really get to rule Hainaut except as a fantasy choice in 1419's Treaty of Woudreichem, which is how it should be really.
Originally posted by magdat
This obviously is bullshit. Gelre already has a seaconnection in what was known as the "Zuiderzee" now called "IJsselmeer".
So it already has a seaconnection, also in the game, so this argument is withdrawn with a sence of shame.
Not really. The port on the Zuiderzee was moved to Freisland in the EEP. Gelderland was always a 'land' province, while Freisland was definitely a 'sea' province, and I'd hate to go back on this. On the other hand, if "Zeeland" represents the Betuwe then Neimegen shouldn't have a port. But ultimately Zeeland (the real one) was very important, and Middelburg should obviously be a port.
I still prefer the EEP solution, but prefer über-Brabant to über-Gelre. SO I'm happy to go along with the Holland/Arois problem only if it's called "Hainault". If you're going to call it "Hainaut" we need to change to Bourgogne, Espana, Bayern and so on forever. "Hainaut" is a French name pure and simple, the English name is "Hainault"
Modern Belgium I'd say Flanders, Brabant, Luxemburg. Prior to Louis XIV
I'd say it would have to be Flanders, Brabant, Luxemburg and Artois.
Originally posted by Ironfoundersson
Yes best option sofar.
BTW is anything decided on Artois/Hainaut/Holland setup?
Will the old MKJ/EEP setup stay? Old setup =County of Holland controls Holland+artois, there are some events about ceding and getting artois to and from Burgundy untill CoH gets annexed
I like this setup
Will the name be CoH or Hainaut?
Okay As far as I know the setups are:
AGC 2.3 b7:
Friesland owns Friesland
Gelre owns Gelre
Holland owns Holland, Friesland and Hainault are vassals, cores on Holland and Friesland.
Hainault owns eu2-province Brabant and is vassal of holland
Brabant owns eu2 province Zeeland
Burgundy owns Artois and Flanderen in the Low Lands
EEP 1.4.1:
Friesland owns Friesland
Gelre Owns Gelre
Holland ows Holland, eu2-Zeeland and eu2-Artois
Brabant owns eu2-Brabent and is a vassal of Burgundy
Burgundy owns Flanderen in the Low Lands and has a good chance of aquiring Picardie from France.
If someone is handy with screenshots that could be handy, so we'll see what we are talking about.
Oh dear I am now really in doubt if I must put forward my argument again with an even more serious sence of shame?
BTW: I can't see cores of other countries so that has to wait. Isn't this possible somehow? Would be a usefull and logical feature. I mean it is nice to know who claims what isn't it?
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