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Here's what wikipedia has on rulers of Kruja (which is what we have as capital city):

Until 1432, the subaşi (governor) of Krujë had been Zagan Bey[citation needed], then Hizir Bey, and later during 1437—1438 Skanderbeg was its governor. In November 1438 Hizir Bey was again appointed as subaşi of Krujë until he was replaced in April 1440 by Umur Bey.[10] On 28 November 1443 Skanderbeg gained control over Krujë by deceiving its subaşi with forged sultan's letter.

I'm wondering if we shouldn't use that list although pre-1437 use the Albanian princes monarch and then push the Death of Gjon event to occur in 1437.
 
...
I'm wondering if we shouldn't use that list although pre-1437 use the Albanian princes monarch and then push the Death of Gjon event to occur in 1437.

Isn´t the exact date of his death unimportant as we don´t even use Gjon as a monarch?
The only points in time that matter IMO would be when the Sultan in Stambul gets that knowlegde some weeks after his death and decides to give the area to Hamza and even later when Iskander decides to revolt what happened historically only while the Ottomans are distracted in their war against Hungary and he saw a chance to get away.

So we could simply use a start and death date for events ALB 104000 and 104009 with the currently used date as death date and 1437 as start date. So they might happen earlier but it´s not certain that they do happen earlier.
 
I think that sounds good. :)

Another thought: Shouldn´t the Albanian independance event (that fires if Albania is owned by the Ottomans due to the rebellion of Skanderbeg) rather be a provincespecific event that fires if ANY non-orthodox without cores, or at least non-christian state owns Albania?
 
I'm not sure. I mean the circumstances for the Ottos are kinda unique. Skanderbeg was given as hostage to Ottomans, joined their army and then the relevant TUR event in question has him abandoning the Turkish cause. Does it make sense that Albania would be guaranteed to become independent if not ruled by the Ottomans? I'm leaning towards no.
 
A change in the next events , to made the ottoman empire a little stronger post-Sulriman (the visier Sokullu Pacha was a competent administator and sustein the empire until his assesination in 1579)
Code:
#(1566) The Conquests of Selim II The Sot
event = {
	id = 301006
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301006" #The Conquests of Selim II The Sot
	desc = "EVENTHIST301006"
	#-#The Sot took little active interest in the governing of his Empire, prefering to wallow in his women. The Empire was left in the capable hands of Grand Vizier Sokollu Mehmet Pasha, who served his father Suleyman, and would serve his son, Murad III. In 1570 Sokollu began assembling a large force to invade Spain to liberate the Moslems from the Spanish Inquisition. Fortunately for Spain, the Sot chose that moment to get involved in his government's affairs, and ordered Sokollu to invade Cyprus in order to secure the supply of his favorite wines. Tunis fell to the Ottomans and Algerians in 1574.

	date = { day = 7 month = september year = 1566 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME301006A" #Get me my Wine
		command = { type = addcore which = 484 } #Cyprus
		[COLOR="#00FF00"]command = { type = DIP which = 3 value = 96 }#Sokullu Pacha
		command = { type = ADM which = 4 value = 96 }
		command = { type = MIL which = 4 value = 96 }[/COLOR]
		#command = { type = AI which = TUR_SelimII.ai }
	}}


#(1574) The Conquests of Murad III
event = {
	id = 301007
	trigger = {
		event = 3360 #TUR: Turko-Persian Conflicts: Shiite rebels
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301007" #The Conquests of Murad III
	desc = "EVENTHIST301007"
	#-#By the time of Murad III, the Empire had stretched beyond its natural limits. Azerbaijan and Daghestan were added to the Empire, but only for twenty years, though the Ottomans would despute control with Persia until 1639.

	date = { day = 1 month = december year = 1574 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME301007A" #Reaching the limits
		command = { type = addcore which = 486 } #Nuyssaybin
		command = { type = addcore which = 508 } #Basrah
		command = { type = addcore which = 471 } #Daghestan
		command = { type = addcore which = 487 } #Azerbaijan
                [COLOR="#00FF00"]command = { type = DIP which = 4 value = 96 }#Sokullu until his death in 1579
		command = { type = ADM which = 4 value = 96 }
		command = { type = MIL which = 1 value = 96 }[/COLOR]
		#command = { type = AI which = TUR_MuradIII.ai }
	}
}

Also , a changes in the koprulu events (in gameplay the otoman ends with innovation 0 and being crushed by Austria AND Persia¡) to represent the temporary push that begin this dinasty


Code:
#(1656) The Age of the Köprülüs
event = {
	id = 3385
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME3385" #The Age of the Köprülüs
	desc = "EVENTHIST3385"
	#-#Born around 1575/1580 in the village of Radnick in Albania, Mehmed Köprülü was a young Christian boy taken by the devshirme system (abducted and raised in the Muslim faith, just like most Janissary troops). He started his career as a cook, then moved to the Treasury. A pasha in central Anatolia, he gained a name for himself as an excellent and honest administrator--a rare creature in the Ottoman Empire. Governor of Damascus, he was called by the mother of the young sultan Mehmed IV as Grand Vizier on 15th September 1656. A fierce fighter of corruption, he enacted many successful reforms, balanced the budget and led the war against Venice. After his death in 1661, his son Fazil Ahmed 'the Virtuous' succeeded him and governed till 1676. Other Grand Viziers such as Kara Mustafa (1676-1683), Mustafa Pasha (1689-1691) and Hussein Pasha (1697-1702) were his direct heirs.

	date = { day = 15 month = september year = 1656 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3385A" #Support the Köprülü Family
		command = { type = ADM which = 6 value = 60 }
		command = { type = MIL which = 5 value = 60 }
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 2 }                
		command = { type = stability value = 2 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = -1 }
               [COLOR="#FFFF00"] command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 2 }#protect the scientist
                command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 1 }#military reforms
                  command = { type = domestic which = land  value = 1 }
	[/COLOR]	command = { type = gainbuilding which = -1 value = courthouse }
		command = { type = gainbuilding which = -1 value = courthouse }
		command = { type = land value = 500 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3385B" #Rely on more popular advisors
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -1 }
	}
}

#(1661) The Age of the Köprülüs
event = {
	id = 50007
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME50007" #Fazil Ahmed Köprülü
	desc = "EVENTHIST3385"
	#-#Born around 1575/1580 in the village of Radnick in Albania, Mehmed Köprülü was a young Christian boy taken by the devshirme system (abducted and raised in the Muslim faith, just like most Janissary troops). He started his career as a cook, then moved to the Treasury. A pasha in central Anatolia, he gained a name for himself as an excellent and honest administrator--a rare creature in the Ottoman Empire. Governor of Damascus, he was called by the mother of the young sultan Mehmed IV as Grand Vizier on 15th September 1656. A fierce fighter of corruption, he enacted many successful reforms, balanced the budget and led the war against Venice. After his death in 1661, his son Fazil Ahmed 'the Virtuous' succeeded him and governed till 1676. Other Grand Viziers such as Kara Mustafa (1676-1683), Mustafa Pasha (1689-1691) and Hussein Pasha (1697-1702) were his direct heirs.

	date = { day = 1 month = november year = 1661 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME50007A" #Appoint him
		command = { type = ADM which = 6 value = 180 }
		command = { type = MIL which = 5 value = 180 }
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 1 }
               [COLOR="#FFFF00"]
                command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = -1 }
                command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 1 }#protect the scientist[/COLOR]
                command = { type = gainbuilding which = -1 value = cityrights }
		command = { type = gainbuilding which = -1 value = cityrights }
		command = { type = infra value = 500 }
	}
}
[COLOR="#FFFF00"]#(1661) The Age of the Köprülüs-Kara mustafa
event = {
	id = 301136
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = " Kara Mustafa Pasha" # Kara Mustafa Pasha
	desc = " Kara Mustafa Pasha was adopted into the powerful Köprülü family at a young age and served as a messenger to Damascus for his brother-in-law, the grand vizier Ahmed Köprülü.  After distinguishing himself, Mustafa became a vizier in his own right and, by 1663 or 1666, Kapudan Pasha (Grand Admiral of the Ottoman Navy).He was defeated in the battle of Viena"
	#-#

	date = { day = 1 month = november year = 1661 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME50007A" #Appoint him
		command = { type = ADM which = 3 value = 84 }#not good like his predecessors
		command = { type = MIL which = 3 value = 84 }
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 1 }#continue the politics of his predecesors
		command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 1 }# launch the last invassion of Austria
                command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 1 }#protect the scientist
                
		command = { type = land value = 1000 }
	}
}[/COLOR]
 
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A change in the next events , to made the ottoman empire a little stronger post-Sulriman (the visier Sokullu Pacha was a competent administator and sustein the empire until his assesination in 1579)
...[/CODE]

Raising innovation by a whopping sum of *+4* in those events is a major change that should have a reason in the historical events. The Ottoman Empire in the 17th century did not become MORE innovative - their early technological advantages melted away and in 1683 they fell behind technologically. That´s the reason the whole "Janissary decadence" events exist in that timeframe that force the player to make some hard decisions: Go the historical way and lose your innovation and get into a less good techgroup or chose an ahistorical way and have other problems.

The monarchs of the Ottomans already take Sokollu pasha into accout. Selim II has really high stats with 7/6/7 despite being a drunkard because the pasha run the show. Without Sokollu the values would be far lower. Raising his values from 7/6/7 to 10/10/11 would be comparable to Napoleon+Lex Luthor running the Ottoman Empire. You were aware that the values in the DIP, ADM and MIL commandlines were ADDED to the values of the monarch and not replace the monarchs values?

Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 04076 }
	startdate = {
		day = 7
		month = september
		year = 1566
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 15
		month = december
		year = 1574
	}
	name = "Selîm II"
	DIP = 7
	MIL = 6
	ADM = 7
	dormant = no
	remark = "Real ruler: Grand Vizier Sokollu Mehmet Pasha"
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 04077 }
	startdate = {
		day = 15
		month = december
		year = 1574
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 15
		month = january
		year = 1595
	}
	name = "Murâd III"
	DIP = 5
	MIL = 5
	ADM = 6
	dormant = no
	remark = "Real ruler: Grand Vizier Sokollu Mehmet Pasha"
 
Raising innovation by a whopping sum of *+4* in those events is a major change that should have a reason in the historical events. The Ottoman Empire in the 17th century did not become MORE innovative - their early technological advantages melted away and in 1683 they fell behind technologically. That´s the reason the whole "Janissary decadence" events exist in that timeframe that force the player to make some hard decisions: Go the historical way and lose your innovation and get into a less good techgroup or chose an ahistorical way and have other problems.

The monarchs of the Ottomans already take Sokollu pasha into accout. Selim II has really high stats with 7/6/7 despite being a drunkard because the pasha run the show. Without Sokollu the values would be far lower. Raising his values from 7/6/7 to 10/10/11 would be comparable to Napoleon+Lex Luthor running the Ottoman Empire. You were aware that the values in the DIP, ADM and MIL commandlines were ADDED to the values of the monarch and not replace the monarchs values?
No : the AGCCEP on this sultans are lower than this ... The right values are :
Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 0139008 }
	startdate = {
		day = 7
		month = september
		year = 1566
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 1
		month = december
		year = 1574
	}
	name = "Selim II"
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]DIP = 3
	MIL = 2
	ADM = 3 very low[/COLOR] 
	dormant = no
	remark = "Real ruler: Grand Vizier Sokollu Mehmet Pasha"
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 0139009 }
	startdate = {
		day = 1
		month = december
		year = 1574
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 15
		month = january
		year = 1595
	}
	name = "Murad III"
	DIP = 3
	MIL = 5
	ADM = 2
	dormant = no
	remark = "Real ruler: Grand Vizier Sokollu Mehmet Pasha"
}
Then , the sokullo events are logical , to improve the ottomans performance at this period...
The innovatibe events is for strenght the ootomans for short time , because Austria usually conquer Hungary at 1580 or earlier , when it should conquer it at 1650s...
 
Sorry if this isn't the right thread but I couldn't find one for Arab countries in general. Anyways, I've seen the Mamluks broken up way to often, and since that's ahistorical (while moreover it affects the growth of the Ottomans) I feel that it should have the arabic culture, and possibly CB cores in the Levant and Egypt to promote its territorial stability.
 
Sorry if this isn't the right thread but I couldn't find one for Arab countries in general. Anyways, I've seen the Mamluks broken up way to often, and since that's ahistorical (while moreover it affects the growth of the Ottomans) I feel that it should have the arabic culture, and possibly CB cores in the Levant and Egypt to promote its territorial stability.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?72517-Mameluks-culture

The Mamluks are supposed to be having problems with revolts and uprisings and to be nearly into chaos and bancrupt when TUR finally invades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burji_dynasty
Arabian culture for the mamluks doesn´t make sense. The mamluks were mainly cirkassian warrior-slaves who took over Egypt from the Ayyubids and are practically foreign rulers of the area. Having arabian culture would make it easier for them to rule there and give them more money which should not happen.

However I agree with you that they should have cores on the provinces they did keep until the osmanic conquest. In EU2 where only national cores existed that was not wanted to avoid them having no nationlism and more income but with the new casusbellicores it would make sense.

Suggested change to 1419_MAM_Mamluks.inc

Code:
ownedprovinces = {
		490 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 494 493 492 491 495 496 497 498
controlledprovinces = {
		490 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 494 493 492 491 495 496 497 498
	}
	nationalprovinces = { 744 745 746 }
        [color=yellow]casusbelliprovinces = { 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 741 742 743 747 }[/color]

However those cores need to be removed because if a player manages to survive with the Mamluks he should have a hard time keeping those lands until he can form Egypt.

I suggest to remove the Syrian and arabian cores with this existing event:

Code:
#(1462-1466) Arab uprisings
event = {
	id = 24043
	random = no
	country = MAM
	name = "EVENTNAME24043" #Arab uprisings
	desc = "EVENTHIST24043"
	#-#From 1462 through 1466 Bedouins and arabic tribes in Syria and Northern Arabia revolted and terrorized the population in these provinces. Sultan Khushqadam had to send multiple expeditions against them, but still couldn't subdue them by the end of his reign.

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1462 }
	offset = 180
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1466 }

	action_a = {
		name = "DRATS"
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 48 value = 7 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
                [color=yellow]command = { type = removecore_casusbelli which = 490 }
                command = { type = removecore_casusbelli which = 491 }
                command = { type = removecore_casusbelli which = 492 }
                command = { type = removecore_casusbelli which = 493 }
                command = { type = removecore_casusbelli which = 494 }
                command = { type = removecore_casusbelli which = 495 }
                command = { type = removecore_casusbelli which = 496 }
                command = { type = removecore_casusbelli which = 497 }
                command = { type = removecore_casusbelli which = 498 }[/color]
	}
}
 
Last edited:
The Mamluks are supposed to be having problems with revolts and uprisings and to be nearly into chaos and bancrupt when TUR finally invades.

With the current events they have enough problems. If the Mamluks are at war when the events strike, they have the extra rr point due to the foreign culture + the war exhaustion (which rises faster precisely becuase of that), which is excessive IMO.

Regarding the loss of the cores, as there is still 50 years to go before the historical conquest, I don't think that's right.
 
With the current events they have enough problems. If the Mamluks are at war when the events strike, they have the extra rr point due to the foreign culture + the war exhaustion (which rises faster precisely becuase of that), which is excessive IMO.

Regarding the loss of the cores, as there is still 50 years to go before the historical conquest, I don't think that's right.

How about 219007? That is triggered by TUR 301503 when Selim I. rules the Osmanic Empire.


Is there any reason to the bad relations between the Mamluks and the Golden Horde in 1419? -150 seems excessive considering that MAM and STE were allies against the Ilkhanate and both fought wars against Timur as the Ilkhanates successor. Any objection to raising that to a neutral 0?

diplomacy = {
relation = { tag = KNI value = -50 }
relation = { tag = TUR value = 75 }
relation = { tag = AKK value = -100 }
relation = { tag = ARA value = 50 }
relation = { tag = STE value = -1500 }
relation = { tag = YEM value = 170 }
relation = { tag = QAR value = -100 }
relation = { tag = DUL value = 150 }
relation = { tag = RAG value = 150 }
}
 
The problems that afflicted the Mamluks were related to power struggles within the Mamluk class itself and not between this class and the Arabic population. Even though the Mamluks were originally Circassian and Turkic by the time they gained power they were taking Arabic names and speaking Arabic. After the Ottoman conquest, the Mamluks persisted at regional level which means that their status had already been cemented in Egyptian society. I would argue that they have a more legitimate claim to Arabic than, say, LAT or LIV to Baltic or KNI to Maltese.
 
The problems that afflicted the Mamluks were related to power struggles within the Mamluk class itself and not between this class and the Arabic population. Even though the Mamluks were originally Circassian and Turkic by the time they gained power they were taking Arabic names and speaking Arabic. After the Ottoman conquest, the Mamluks persisted at regional level which means that their status had already been cemented in Egyptian society. I would argue that they have a more legitimate claim to Arabic than, say, LAT or LIV to Baltic or KNI to Maltese.

The language barrier existed between the mamluks as the ruling class and the arabian population:
http://books.google.de/books?id=Y-i...ks unusual for sultan to speak arabic&f=false

It´s similar to imagining the Varangian Guard taking over Byzanz as a complete foreign ruling class.
And Mamluks did not evolve in Egypt to become more arabian. Their numbers were replenished by more bought mamluks from the areas of the Caucasus and the Golden Horde.

That the Mamluks persisted after the Ottoman conquest seems to me not to be caused by the love of their arabian subjects but that the ottomans spoke a turkish language too and were used to have governors from conquered regions so they effectively left the Mamluks in power as their administration in Egypt.
 
Last edited:
The language barrier existed between the mamluks as the ruling class and the arabian population:
http://books.google.de/books?id=Y-i...ks unusual for sultan to speak arabic&f=false

That the Mamluks persisted after the Ottoman conquest seems to me not to be caused by the love of their arabian subjects but that the ottomans spoke a turkish language too and were used to have governors from conquered regions so they effectively left the Mamluks in power as their administration in Egypt.

This essay says that the Mamluks sometimes spoke in colloquial Arabic and wrote in Arabic. This is more than can be said for the ruling elites of the monastic states in Prussia, Livonia, Cyprus and Malta who all have the respective native cultures as accepted. And as I said earlier, the Mamluk troubles were not really a result of this cultural separation but due to internal power struggles.
 
This essay says that the Mamluks sometimes spoke in colloquial Arabic and wrote in Arabic. This is more than can be said for the ruling elites of the monastic states in Prussia, Livonia, Cyprus and Malta who all have the respective native cultures as accepted. And as I said earlier, the Mamluk troubles were not really a result of this cultural separation but due to internal power struggles.

No the essay says that some of the Mamluks sometimes spoke colloquial arabic - meaning that it was an exception and the majority of the mamluks did not and depended on interpreters to translate their turkish, circassian or whatever language the slave knew at the time he was sold to egypt to serve as a mamluk.

The Mamluks were once *shiite caucasians* in the game which was historically nonsense but thought necessary for the game to weaken them to the point that the Ottomans can win several wars against them. Having them historically correct as sunni gives them less revolts and more income. Giving them arabic would give them even less revoltrisk and more income from their owned provinces. It would mean that they would not be the failing state in the 1520s that could easily be conquered by the Ottomans due to their refusal of using guns and the support of the arabian population for the Ottomans - and we would need even more events to weaken the Mamluks so that the AI Ottomans even declare war on them.

EEP had them once as sunni turkish
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?43036-Mameluke-changes
but that is problematic when the Mamluks can rule turkish provinces without penalties.
 
There is usually not A SINGLE state in the muslim tech group that reaches 5 or 6 LT in my games. The Mamluks in particular are a huge (meaning higher cost for tech) country constantly having to deal with revolts, how are they going to be any threat?
 
There is usually not A SINGLE state in the muslim tech group that reaches 5 or 6 LT in my games. The Mamluks in particular are a huge (meaning higher cost for tech) country constantly having to deal with revolts, how are they going to be any threat?

Like that hands-off testgame (using Ney and Columbus cheats):
Mamluks.jpg

Mamluks only with caucasian culture and casusbelli cores on their own provinces.
Despite not having arabic and all the events of AGCEEP they did not only survive into their ahistorical monarchs but expanded. The Ottomans did not dare to go to war against them despite having cores.
 
Firstly, what I usually see is the opposite happening (what should be Mamluk territory becomes a mess); but more importantly, if what is an almost historical Mamluk state is enough to scare the Ottomans, the problem lies in their AI or their expansion, rather than in Egypt.