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How about the creation of a cultural group that encompasses Dalmatia, Istria, and Ragusa respectively, and call it 'Adriatic', and give it to Venice (and the country Ragusa I guess). This will help keep the area catholic, and since the ottomans don't get that culture, and it'll be another safeguard to keep the area Venetian.
Click to expand...

This is not a bad idea indeed, though it could lack needed historical justification, also giving Alexandria's core to VEN will not change anything for a human player, because a skilled human would take it long before the named event (unless Mamluks or Hungary are played by skilled human as well), but it could change for the AI.
 
There used to be such a group, but it stretched further down and was called Illyrian. Then these fellows called the Slavs arrived...

Alright here let's end it:

IF they viewed Venice as MORE legitimate than Croatia (for Slavonic) or the Byzantine Empire (for Greek) then make them Italian. Otherwise leave them as they are. Venice gets Italian only in either case.
 
There used to be such a group, but it stretched further down and was called Illyrian. Then these fellows called the Slavs arrived...
Click to expand...

:D

But there was quite a cultural difference from inland slavs and coastal illyrian-slav mix, wasn't there?
 
Mad King James said:
I'm sorry man, but...
worst...justification...ever.
Click to expand...

As I said unsure in regards to croatia, although in 1420 croatia also had a coast line.
 
Mad King James said:
There used to be such a group, but it stretched further down and was called Illyrian. Then these fellows called the Slavs arrived...

Alright here let's end it:

IF they viewed Venice as MORE legitimate than Croatia (for Slavonic) or the Byzantine Empire (for Greek) then make them Italian. Otherwise leave them as they are. Venice gets Italian only in either case.
Click to expand...

I'm with MKJ, completely.

To return to Corfu for a minute:
My thought is that while Corfu's cities were run by and supportive of the Venetians, the hinterland and mass of people were still Ortho. and not converted over 300 years and so are best represented by a non-state Greek culture. There can be an event in the 16/17th c. that converts it to Italian to represent cultural penitration. Like I've mentioned before, though, if the community weighs those factors differently, I'm good with an Italian orthodox province as long as the Greek states get events returning it to Greek culture on reconquest.

jay.
 
Llywelyn said:
I'm with MKJ, completely.

To return to Corfu for a minute:
My thought is that while Corfu's cities were run by and supportive of the Venetians, the hinterland and mass of people were still Ortho. and not converted over 300 years and so are best represented by a non-state Greek culture. There can be an event in the 16/17th c. that converts it to Italian to represent cultural penitration. Like I've mentioned before, though, if the community weighs those factors differently, I'm good with an Italian orthodox province as long as the Greek states get events returning it to Greek culture on reconquest.

jay.
Click to expand...

Confused

It was MJK , 2 years ago that first proposed corfu to be Italian, and also more recently.
 
binTravkin said:
:D

But there was quite a cultural difference from inland slavs and coastal illyrian-slav mix, wasn't there?
Click to expand...

I don't think there was a great difference among slavs, it was more the difference between coastal cities, that were more italian (venetian), and the countryside that was predominantly slavic.
 
Svantevid said:
I don't think there was a great difference among slavs, it was more the difference between coastal cities, that were more italian (venetian), and the countryside that was predominantly slavic.
Click to expand...

Yeah, which would put me against making the provinces Italian, except that along the Dalmatian coast, I'm not sure the coastal (Italian) cities wouldn't be the vast majority of the economy (ie, the practical province culture for tax, rebel and game purposes), while the hinterland would consist of easily dominated sustenance farmers.

Toio said:
Confused

It was MJK , 2 years ago that first proposed corfu to be Italian, and also more recently.
Click to expand...

Don't get your hopes up; just read in context.

MKJ said:
This is the middle ages, Corfu's character and culture was MUCH more closely tied to that of Italy and Venice in particular than the mainland of Greece. This changed with the Hellenic Revolution, but that changed a LOT of things.

On a side note, it was fashionable on Corfu for women to go about their business topless. File this where you will.
Click to expand...
me said:
Obviously, immense respect to the MKJ, but I'll stick by the Wiki article til something more scholarly gets posted.

jay.
Click to expand...
MKJ said:
Alright here let's end it:

IF they viewed Venice as MORE legitimate than Croatia (for Slavonic) or the Byzantine Empire (for Greek) then make them Italian. Otherwise leave them as they are. Venice gets Italian only in either case.
Click to expand...
me said:
I'm with MKJ, completely.

To return to Corfu for a minute:
My thought is that while Corfu's cities were run by and supportive of the Venetians, the hinterland and mass of people were still Ortho. and not converted over 300 years and so are best represented by a non-state Greek culture. There can be an event in the 16/17th c. that converts it to Italian to represent cultural penitration. Like I've mentioned before, though, if the community weighs those factors differently, I'm good with an Italian orthodox province as long as the Greek states get events returning it to Greek culture on reconquest.
Click to expand...

There's no inconsistency between those posts; there is inconsistency between the first bit of this post and my position on Corfu. My thought is that the Dalmatian coast had been under Venetian domination since at least the capture of Zara in the 13th century and Corfu had just been annexed at the beginning of the game's time period (1419 scenario, obviously.) As I've said numerous times, the best way to represent this in-game IMO is to have a province culture event at least a century in...

jay.
 
Just a question for the event "Blinding the two eyes of the republic" (326019 IIRC). It makes Venice DoW the Ottomans, while IRL it's more a war started by the Ottomans. This is hurting Venice, as they maybe have no CB (at least, not if played by a human player), so they take 4 BB.

Shouldn't it be the Ottomans who DoW ? Or shouldn't there be triggers based on provinces ownership ?

And why lost the albanian culture in both actions ? If they make war, they don't surrender. :confused:
 
Ambassador said:
Just a question for the event "Blinding the two eyes of the republic" (326019 IIRC). It makes Venice DoW the Ottomans, while IRL it's more a war started by the Ottomans. This is hurting Venice, as they maybe have no CB (at least, not if played by a human player), so they take 4 BB.

Shouldn't it be the Ottomans who DoW ? Or shouldn't there be triggers based on provinces ownership ?

And why lost the albanian culture in both actions ? If they make war, they don't surrender. :confused:
Click to expand...

You are right. This event makes no sense as it is now. But this is because the original trigger was mutilated without regard for what was left:

Code: 
event = {
	id = 326019
	trigger = {
		exists = TUR
		atwar = no
		NOT = {
			alliance = { country = VEN country = TUR }
		}
		NOT = {
			AND = {
				alliance = { country = VEN country = ALB }
				owned = { province = 361 data = ALB }	# Albania
				control = { province = 361 data = ALB }	# Albania
			}
		}
		NOT = {
			AND = {
				owned = { province = 361 data = -1 }	# Albania
				control = { province = 361 data = -1 }	# Albania
			}
		}				
			
	}
	random = no
	country = VEN
	name = "Blinding the two eyes of the republic"
	desc = "Without warning, the Ottoman sultan sent a huge fleet into the Ionian sea, and when the Venetians fought poorly in the battle of Zonchio, the Turkish army and navy combined to capture nearly all the Venetian strongholds in Greece, including Modon and Coron, which since 1204 had been considered the 'two eyes of the Republic'. Although Venice with Spanish help captured the islands of Cephalonia and Ithaca it was poor compensation for the loss of 'their eyes'. Groaning under the financial burden of the war and wishing to be free to face Italian complications, Venice made peace by surrendering claims to most Albanian and all mainland Greek cities."
	style = 1
	
	date = { day = 9 month = may year = 1489 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 20 month = october year = 1513 }

	action_a ={
		name = "Lost friends"
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = albanian }
		command = { type = domestic which = mercantilism value = 1 }
		command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 100 }
		command = { type = war which = TUR }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = TUR value = -100 }
	}
	
	action_b = {
		name = "Lost claims"
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = albanian }
		command = { type = removecore which = 360 } #morea
		command = { type = removecore which = 359 } #hellas
		command = { type = treasury value = -100 }
		command = { type = relation which = TUR value = 100 }
		command = { type = population which = 820 value = 3000 } #corfu
	}
}

Originally it was imperfect, but offered the player a nice opportunity to gain Albanian culture. It was a set of two, together with event 326018 "a gift from Skandenberg, that added Albanian culture. Between 1468 and 1489, the player had to gain ownership of Albania, and then he could keep Albanian culture for ever. The justification was that the ties between Albanians and Venetians were as strong as with the Greeks. Whoever cut the triggers did not improve the events.

The set should be improved on the following premises:

-For Venice to have Albanian culture should be very hard (player only) or not possible at all. It is not such a perk, as Albania is so poor that a +30% income is worthless.
-Venice should never be forced to declare war to the OE, as they never did. The OE should not be forced to war either. Forced wars are not a good solution, they could be weak at that time and Venice have strong allies. OE already has the cores, and they will chose the right time.
-As the text indicates, the core on Hellas can be lost, but the core on Morea should be maintained. Venice fought the war of Morea much later.
-History is very poorly represented. Modon (Methone) and Coron, were in Morea, and had nothing to do with Albania.

In my opinion, the second event could be made into a standing event (1480-1819) that would fire when Albania falls into the hands of the Ottoman Empire, removing the Albanian culture and the core in Hellas, with no option_b. The text should then refer generally to the fall of Albania and the retreat of Venice, but not to the battle of Zonchio.

I leave it in your hands Ambassador, but post it in the Italian thread, that is where it belongs:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95862
 
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This is an old Venetian event, and rather unbalanced IMO:
Code: 
#Paolo Sarpi#
event = {
id = 17009
random = no
country = VEN
name = "Paolo Sarpi"
desc = "Two clerics, Scipio Saraceni and Marcantonio Brandolin were denounced and accused
of persistent attempts on the honour of his niece (Saraceni), and murder and rape
(Brandolin). The Ten verified the justice of the charges and arrogated to itself
the responsibility of trial and punishment. Pope Paul V demanded that the two be
handed over to ecclesiastical authorities as they were outside the jurisdiction of
the Republic as members of the clergy. This matter simply brought to a head conflict
that was already brewing with the church over the right to appoint a Patriach, taxes,
and church properties in Venice. The Pope pronounced a sentence of excommunication
and laid an interdict on Venice. Venice turned to Paolo Sarpi, a theologian, expert
in canon law, dialectician, scientist, and political philosopher. Sarpi argued and
defended the case of Venice before the whole world. This man gave Venice the power
to defy the Papal interdict. King Henry IV was asked to mediate with the Pope, and
while the Papacy tried to save face, it was clear that the interdict had failed.
Never again would the Pope attempt to interdict a nation, and papal authority over
Catholic Europe suffered a blow from which it could never quite recover.
style = 3

date = { day = 1 month = september year = 1605 }
offset = 360
deathdate = { day = 1 month = september year = 1606 }

action_a ={ #Turn to Paolo Sarpi, Do Not Compromise#
name = "Turn to Paolo Sarpi, Do Not Compromise"
command = { type = stability value = 2 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = -2 value = 5 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = SPA value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 100 }
}
action_b ={ #Turn to Paolo Sarpi, but Compromise with Rome#
name = "Turn to Paolo Sarpi, but Compromise with Rome"
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = -2 value = -2 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 30 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -30 }
}
action_b ={ #Submit Fully to Rome#
name = "Submit Fully to Rome"
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = -2 value = -5 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 100 }
command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 50 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -50 }
}
}

Since we have so many events for Venice now, I think this one should be scrapped:
Code: 
#Morosini's Cat#
event = {

id = 17012
random = no
country = VEN
name = "Morosini's Cat"
desc = "EVENTHIST17012"
style = 3

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1694 }
offset = 360
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1695 }

action_a ={ #I am Not Making This Up#
name = "I am Not Making This Up"
command = { type = vp value = 5 }
}

action_b ={ #I am Making This Up#
name = "I am Making This Up"
command = { type = vp value = -5 }
}
}

EVENTHIST17012;Francesco Morosini was Venice's last great warrior-Doge. His campaigns, for a brief time, restored the Republic's self-confidence and splendour. Following hisdeath during the winter of 1694, he was given a tremendous funeral: First at Nauplia, where his heart and viscera were consigned to the church of S. Antonio in Nauplia, and later in Venice at SS. Giovanni e Paolo, whence the body was takento S. Stefano for burial. The Doges palace houses a huge marble triumphal arch, while currently, the Correr Museum houses several paintings of the Doge as well as the embalmed body of his cat, of which he was inordinately fond.;;;;;;;;;;;X
 
Norrefeldt said:
This is an old Venetian event, and rather unbalanced IMO:
Code: 
#Paolo Sarpi#
event = {
id = 17009
random = no
country = VEN
name = "Paolo Sarpi"
desc = "Two clerics, Scipio Saraceni and Marcantonio Brandolin were denounced and accused
of persistent attempts on the honour of his niece (Saraceni), and murder and rape
(Brandolin). The Ten verified the justice of the charges and arrogated to itself
the responsibility of trial and punishment. Pope Paul V demanded that the two be
handed over to ecclesiastical authorities as they were outside the jurisdiction of
the Republic as members of the clergy. This matter simply brought to a head conflict
that was already brewing with the church over the right to appoint a Patriach, taxes,
and church properties in Venice. The Pope pronounced a sentence of excommunication
and laid an interdict on Venice. Venice turned to Paolo Sarpi, a theologian, expert
in canon law, dialectician, scientist, and political philosopher. Sarpi argued and
defended the case of Venice before the whole world. This man gave Venice the power
to defy the Papal interdict. King Henry IV was asked to mediate with the Pope, and
while the Papacy tried to save face, it was clear that the interdict had failed.
Never again would the Pope attempt to interdict a nation, and papal authority over
Catholic Europe suffered a blow from which it could never quite recover.
style = 3

date = { day = 1 month = september year = 1605 }
offset = 360
deathdate = { day = 1 month = september year = 1606 }

action_a ={ #Turn to Paolo Sarpi, Do Not Compromise#
name = "Turn to Paolo Sarpi, Do Not Compromise"
command = { type = stability value = 2 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = -2 value = 5 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = SPA value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 100 }
}
action_b ={ #Turn to Paolo Sarpi, but Compromise with Rome#
name = "Turn to Paolo Sarpi, but Compromise with Rome"
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = -2 value = -2 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 30 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -30 }
}
action_b ={ #Submit Fully to Rome#
name = "Submit Fully to Rome"
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = -2 value = -5 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 100 }
command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 50 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -50 }
}
}

I agree , scrap the cat event , have asked for this 2 years ago.


On the sarpi event.
i recommend these changes.

offset of 360 is weird for a 1 year event even though there are no triggers.

action a - 
province tax should be scrapped as the venetians were selling at this time a bulk of their goods to protestant held german lands

action b -
as stated in my above recommentations
Click to expand...
 
Morosini's cat should definitely go. Someone has been reading Norwich too much ;)

The Sarpi event is unbalanced because of the tax value changes. -5 basic tax value is unacceptable and should not be imposed on the AI even in 5% of the games. That BTV is probably trying to represent the problem of the many urban properties that were ending in Church hands by testament, but that clearly cannot be 1/5 of total Venice tax value.

As I see it, it should be a chance to decide the orientation of Venice:
Option A: Asserting independence: Stab +1, BTV +1, Inno +1 Relations, PAP -100, SPA -25, HAB -25, FRA +25, ENG +25, HOL +25
Option B: Compromise: -50D, Relations PAP -25
Option C: Submit to Rome: Stab -1, BTV -1, Inno -1 Relations, PAP +100, SPA +25, HAB +25, FRA -25, ENG -25, HOL -25

In the context of the upcoming 30 YW, countries were taking sides, and Venice was clearly anti-Habsburg, and was able to get Protestant help in their fights against Austria over the issue of Gradisca and the Uskoks, and against Spain in the naval war of Osuna. That is why the relationship changes should be expanded.
Option A makes you innovative, and you are rewarded, while option C makes you narrowminded and you pay for it, but a more just price. You can get out of the choice by paying an idemnity to the Church (option B) and remaining the same.
 
Fodoron said:
As I see it, it should be a chance to decide the orientation of Venice:
Option A: Asserting independence: Stab +1, BTV +1, Inno +1 Relations, PAP -100, SPA -25, HAB -25, FRA +25, ENG +25, HOL +25
Option B: Compromise: -50D, Relations PAP -25
Option C: Submit to Rome: Stab -1, BTV -1, Inno -1 Relations, PAP +100, SPA +25, HAB +25, FRA -25, ENG -25, HOL -25
Click to expand...
This is better. I think A could be even further downgraded, by removing the stability bonus or removing missionaries.

EDIT: Since it's option A, I don't mind that being a better option most of the time. So no further modification might be needed.
 
Last edited:
Maybe you could to Venice a possibility to evade this event if Venice is a very strong power. Indeed plauges strike over all europe in those centuries: with a effort of money or other Venice can save his (her? its?) power.
 
niceta said:
Maybe you could to Venice a possibility to evade this event if Venice is a very strong power. Indeed plauges strike over all europe in those centuries: with a effort of money or other Venice can save his (her? its?) power.
Click to expand...
As I said it was one the most densely-populated cities in the world but the lagoon and the merchant nature were ideal characteristics for a possible plague. The end of the 1575 plague is nowadays celebrated in Venice as "La festa del Redentore". The most famous Venetian mask is the "Dottore della Peste" covered in a black cloak with the characteristic hooked nose...
 
Actually Venetian events should go to the Italian thread or future modders will not find them once/if the Venetian cultural issue is ever settled.
 
I forgot about the Paolo Sarpi event, posted here:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4630646&postcount=381

I noticed there were two option b in the original event. The suggestion below is Fodoron's, but I thik that A is good enough as it is, even without +1 stab. The entire event should only happen if Catholic or Counterreformed. A very unuseful trigger. ;)
Code: 
action_a ={ 
name = "Asserting independence"
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = -2 value = 1 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = SPA value = -25 }
command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -25 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 25 }
command = { type = relation which = ENG value = 25 }
command = { type = relation which = HOL value = 25 }
}
action_b ={ 
name = "Compromise with Rome"
command = { type = treasury value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -25 }
}
action_c ={ 
name = "Submit to Rome"
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = -2 value = -1 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 100 }
command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 25 }
command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 25 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -25 }
command = { type = relation which = ENG value = -25 }
command = { type = relation which = HOL value = -25 }
}

I think we should rename the thread to Venice, since most about it is here, and only little in the Italian thread.
 
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