Age of Wonders 4 Open Beta - Tiger 1.3 Update

[stigmund77]

Finally! Free cities can actually attack dwellings, awesome stuff! Now just let us rename our vassal cities and they'll be perfect.

 

[Azktor]

Love this new patch, except for: Cult of personality excessive nerfs.

20 gold / Renown is waaaaay to much. If it was like 5 / Renown it would be fine.

 

[Triumph Jordi]

I post this because i know that for some mods who change ruler definition : Age of color and icon bank mods for example,
Just load a game (no need to modify the ruler, or use it... only launch the game and exit) with the mod desactivated is enought to modify the ruler that need these mods.

Those are not mods that do anything with Hero Class or Hero Background so I don't know why you would think these would cause any issues.

 

[Triumph Jordi]

20 gold per renown per hero for a trait that encourages using more heroes? That means up to 100 gold upkeep per hero, doesn't it?
20 gold per hero flat would have been a better nerf rather than increasing it per renown.

I understand that Cult of Personality was very powerful but this nerf makes it worse than Chosen Destroyers. It greatly cripples your economy
both early and late game. It removes the purpose of picking this trait. At least I do not see why I would ever willingly pick it again.

Your math doesn't quite checks out. At a max renown hero this is equivalent to 60 Gold Upkeep.

 

[seperamos]

Sounds like good changes. At some point, the devs need to address the biggest problem. Heroes are far more effective than armies. There's no reason to make an army to attack other players...only to defend against trash attacks.

A stack of 4 heroes defeats almost anything in auto-combat on Brutal. When it loses, you run the battle yourself and easily win.
A stack of 6 heroes is ludicrous.

So, what to do about it? They had the right idea of giving army buffs to the heroes, but it's far too little to matter.
Maybe reduce siege value to 1/unit (instead of base 10). Give all siege "adds" requirements that a simple stack of heroes can't meet.
Force players to bring an army with them to take enemy cities.

As it is now...
1. Build stack of heroes
2. Rack up xp on neutrals
3. Move near enemy capital
4. Declare war and siege capital
5. Enemy player dead

This works for any culture, stats, etc., but it's more effective with Reclaimers, flying mounts, and Favorable Winds.

...and if you're going to nerf anything, it has to be healing. Far too powerful.
Ruler = warrior with all minor race bonuses + undead for life steal (healing)
Make your other heroes ritualists as much as possible. Give them an orb and a flying mount. Two massive heal powers that can bring each other back from the dead.

For the ultimate hero party, go mostly materium. Master materium summon. Tome of transmutation for 3x tranquility = rings of status immunity. Immune to decay. Nothing can stop the healing.

I recommend nerfing all healing somehow...not just hero healing.

I only disagree with healing nerfs, each affinity needs some type of healing that scales over the course of a game. Limited in the beginning, powerful in single target or spread over multiple units in the end.

 

[MasterErgios]

Your math doesn't quite checks out. At a max renown hero this is equivalent to 60 Gold Upkeep.

The changelog made it sound like they start with upkeep on lvl 1 renown, so up to 80 gold per hero. This is better but still bad.
Up to 60 gold upkeep per hero for a trait that is supposed to encourage more heroes is still too much of a nerf. It discourages the very thing the trait is meant to encourage.
I still stand by my post that flat 20 gold would be better and the current nerf makes it a challenge trait rather than a useful one.
Cult of Personality needed a nerf but this is overkill.

 

[Dorszyk]

Reduced Base Hero Stats

• Reduced HP from 90 to 80
• Reduced Defense from 3 to 2
• Reduced Resistance from 3 to 2

Grace - Now stacks only up to 3 times down from 5

Defender
Made Tireless Retaliator a bit more niche, shuffled damage bonus on fighting skills to make it a more interesting choice between survivability and damage.

• Graceful Defence - Reduced Grace granted from +2 to +1
• Tireless Retaliator - Now grants Tireless Retaliation while in Defense Mode
• Resistant Vanguard - Reduced Status Resistance granted from +2 to +1
• Fighting 1 - Reduced Damage increase to 10% instead of 15%
• Fighting 2
  • Increased Damage increase to 20% instead of 15%
  • Now mutually exclusive with Greater Vigor
  • Renamed to "Greater Fighting"

Those changes I am most concerned about.

Defender is currently the weakest class in the game and it will make it even worse.

The issue is that Defenders are skill-point starved way more than other classes and lack in some aspects for too long.
They need hit points, but you lack damage if you go the middle road of their skill tree. If you purchase damage nodes, their survivability and utility suffer.

The Defender's early game clear is pretty weak, and reducing the hero's hp and def/res would only add to the problem. Frontline heroes need to be tanky by default, especially if that's the archetype. Fewer Grace stacks and less Grace granted means that even in mid to late game Defenders will have an even harder time keeping up with their health (and role).

They need both Charge Resistance and Defensive Masters (mutually exclusive) to function well, and if you go that way, you miss on damage and retaliation nodes (until many levels later), which are crucial for the Defender.
You can alleviate the problem a bit with Item Forge, true, but 2 Haste Berries are not always easy to get.
No Charge Resistance = Defender can be shut down by even Dark Warriors.
Tireless Retaliation while Defense Mode only? The same issue.

All this while for example Ritualist requires only a few skill points to be decent at what they are meant to be. And the more levels, the better it gets. The Defender requires like 8+ points to even fulfill its given role properly.

I'd remake some of the Defender's nodes in a way similar to the Spellblade's in design - to simply grant more. For example: if +10 hp, then also +10% damage or +1 Def and Res. Because now Defender feels like a defender only with 2 skill points per level mod active. XD
I'd also maybe add some flavor - like +1 Retaliation Strike node also grants First Strike (to make an interesting playstyle even without polearms).


On a side note - the Spellblade class looks interesting. Equipping a polearm with a knockback node unlocked and teleporting into the backline to aoe with magic seems funny and I'd be happy to try it out.
Death Knight though seems a bit too squishy for a front line. On the other side, being able to disrupt enchantments with certain melee attacks seems nice (the class has no cooldowns reset on kill, which I'd expect on such a class, but we'll see).

 

[Mourioche]

Those are not mods that do anything with Hero Class or Hero Background so I don't know why you would think these would cause any issues.

I already experienced this :
The mods Age of Colors and Random Banners For All modify ruler as it is recorded (only rulers that uses these mod of course)
And if you disable the mod and than launch the game, the rulers that need these mods are modified by the game.
No need to open or modify them, just launch the game without the mods.
After re-enable the mod, the color or the banner is modified.

It is not only for these mods, but this can be experienced for any mods that touch the ruler definition.
For colors or banner points we are lucky, rulers is still playable; the colors or banners are only modified.

So i did not speak about issues about theses mods on class data, but only because they make me understand how the game run with saved rulers, and mods, and of course games versions.

Some mods like Dragon Class Selection also modify ruler as it is recorded,
And worst : without the mod, the ruler become unusable (seems logic, the value to describe the "new profile" does not exist without the mod)
(for user, just put a copy of your rulers before modify it, and do not be afraid, reactivate the mod make the ruler usable again... but in the futur suppose that a game update make the mod not usable... you can loss your ruler.. be careful)
[ Anyway, nice mod, good job ]

The changes in this beta seems to modify some rulers, and seems to do things like the dragon mod,
This is why i'm afraid to have modifications that could make some of my rulers unusable if i launch the beta.

You also wrote a warning in red at the start of the thread about this, didn't you?
This warning is about only a single game (that in this case i do not care), or about user defined rulers?

 

[Azktor]

Your math doesn't quite checks out. At a max renown hero this is equivalent to 60 Gold Upkeep.

I think 60 gold per hero is too much, for a trait that is all about heroes. I see the thematic in that the heroes are like 'celebrities' or 'nobles' and require payment and/or have a luxurious lifestyle that the population gladly pays. But it is fairly easy to get 1~2 renown in your first hero making that 20/40/60 gold upkeep in the early game borderline umplayable.

My previous post I suggested a 5 gold/renown, but I also missunderstood the math behind. I think a 10 gold/renown should make this a fun, challenging, unique and strong (for single player purpose) society trait to have in the game.

 

[Kitschy]

Really cool when it comes to new classes, much appreciated.
Ritualist still staying as is is a bit sad tho.

 

[Triumph Jordi]

• Cult of Personality - Upkeep per renown level reduced from 20 to 10

• Learning a Signature Skill now grants an extra skill point for the Hero
  • Note that this is NOT retroactive! You will need to respec a hero and relearn signature skills to get the extra points.

Godir Origin: Dragon Lords
Early game Dragon lord survivability suffered disproportionately from the changes in part thanks to their size. HP increased to restore their survivability early on comparative to other Ruler types.

• Base HP increased from 80 back to 100
• Reduced HP gain from Breath Transformation (Level 12) from 30 to 20 HP
• Reduced HP gain from Primal Transformation (Level 8) from 25 to 15 HP (Same as other transformations on its tier)

Hero Class: Ranger
Scatter shot got reworked a bit to be more flexible in its uses. Swapped around Skirmisher and Melee training to give earlier access to the slippery property even for ranged focused ranger builds.

• Skirmisher training and melee training have swapped positions
• Scatter shot action point cost reduced from 3 to 1
• Scatter shot range reduced to 4

Hero Class: Death Knight

• Curse is now a free action, with a 1 hex range and 3 turn cooldown
• Swapped the positions of Melee Mage and Dark Ritual in the tree, so that Dark Ritual comes first

• Mythic units got +10% Increased Damage, +10hp, +1 Defense, +1 Resistance
• Pyre Templar - Base Defense reduced from 5 to 4
• Umbral Mistress - Base Movement speed reduced from 48 (Very fast) to 32 (Normal)

---

Skills

• Mage / Spellblade
  • Wildfire Strikes description updated to correctly indicate it works on all base attacks.
• Order
  • Fixed Lead by Example duplicating/repeating Additional Effects of Support Abilities

 

[seperamos]

• Cult of Personality - Upkeep per renown level reduced from 20 to 10

• Learning a Signature Skill now grants an extra skill point for the Hero
  • Note that this is NOT retroactive! You will need to respec a hero and relearn signature skills to get the extra points.

Godir Origin: Dragon Lords
Early game Dragon lord survivability suffered disproportionately from the changes in part thanks to their size. HP increased to restore their survivability early on comparative to other Ruler types.

• Base HP increased from 80 back to 100
• Reduced HP gain from Breath Transformation (Level 12) from 30 to 20 HP
• Reduced HP gain from Primal Transformation (Level 8) from 25 to 15 HP (Same as other transformations on its tier)

Hero Class: Ranger
Scatter shot got reworked a bit to be more flexible in its uses. Swapped around Skirmisher and Melee training to give earlier access to the slippery property even for ranged focused ranger builds.

• Skirmisher training and melee training have swapped positions
• Scatter shot action point cost reduced from 3 to 1
• Scatter shot range reduced to 4

Hero Class: Death Knight

• Curse is now a free action, with a 1 hex range and 3 turn cooldown
• Swapped the positions of Melee Mage and Dark Ritual in the tree, so that Dark Ritual comes first

• Mythic units got +10% Increased Damage, +10hp, +1 Defense, +1 Resistance
• Pyre Templar - Base Defense reduced from 5 to 4
• Umbral Mistress - Base Movement speed reduced from 48 (Very fast) to 32 (Normal)

---

Skills

• Mage / Spellblade
  • Wildfire Strikes description updated to correctly indicate it works on all base attacks.
• Order
  • Fixed Lead by Example duplicating/repeating Additional Effects of Support Abilities

Jordi, the Triumph staff is doing a LOT of work to get these systems up to snuff and it is appreciated.

There may be some pingponging regarding rulers, heroes, their stats and skills branches, but I believe there will soon be a general, popular consensus that gives rulers and heroes a stable system where they will thrive within the game.

 

[Mourioche]

Really cool when it comes to new classes, much appreciated.

I supposed it is what Triumph planned,
Seem to me evident that there will be others class, and that existing one will be developped in the futur (too many skill look like others right now).
And this is the reason why i not modded a lot about class (only made 2 little and quick multiclass, just to play some of my rulers who are not with the class i expected), i'm waiting to see how they complete this feature before...

 

[MasterErgios]

Cult of Personality - Upkeep per renown level reduced from 20 to 10

Sounds much better.

 

[Azktor]

• Cult of Personality - Upkeep per renown level reduced from 20 to 10

• Learning a Signature Skill now grants an extra skill point for the Hero
  • Note that this is NOT retroactive! You will need to respec a hero and relearn signature skills to get the extra points.

Hero Class: Death Knight

• Curse is now a free action, with a 1 hex range and 3 turn cooldown
• Swapped the positions of Melee Mage and Dark Ritual in the tree, so that Dark Ritual comes first

Love all those changes!! 10/10 Keep up the amazng job!

I was about to start (in beta version) a Dark Death Knight Orc - Named Azktor, and with theses changes just got better!

 

[erennin]

[

Archer range - nerfed
Archer killing momentum - gone
Mage damage - nerfed
Any skill for any build - gone
High resistance shield hero builds - nerfed

We had all freedom do make our heroes ANY way we wanted . We could pick and choose any skill from the list.
Now it's a dumbed down exclusive and funneled non-optional, flavourless level-up basic process.

You really want us to play your way. Nevermind what the people who pay to play this game enjoys doing.

Did you not notice how many players were really passionate about their hero archer builds? How many tube videos, how many Reddit posts about heros archers..
And you fed it up.

 

[seperamos]

Archer range - nerfed
Archer killing momentum - gone
Mage damage - nerfed
Any skill for any build - gone
High resistance shield hero builds - nerfed

We had all freedom do make our heroes ANY way we wanted . We could pick and choose any skill from the list.
Now it's a dumbed down exclusive and funneled non-optional, flavourless level-up basic process.

You really want us to play your way. Nevermind what the people who pay to play this game enjoys doing.

Did you not notice how many players were really passionate about their hero archer builds? How many tube videos, how many Reddit posts about heros archers..
And you fed it up.

I fought that battle and lost, man. 10 people from this and other forums disliked a 3 paragraph post I made last month explaining why building classes from general skill lists and balancing the items (magelock) and skills (killing momentum) was better than across the board restrictions.

They want defined classes and rulers/heroes predefined by class. The least we can do now is get more classes and get more hybrid. But it is tough to adjust to the loss...

 

[Fjolsvid]

• Cult of Personality - Upkeep per renown level reduced from 20 to 10

• Learning a Signature Skill now grants an extra skill point for the Hero
  • Note that this is NOT retroactive! You will need to respec a hero and relearn signature skills to get the extra points.

Godir Origin: Dragon Lords
Early game Dragon lord survivability suffered disproportionately from the changes in part thanks to their size. HP increased to restore their survivability early on comparative to other Ruler types.

• Base HP increased from 80 back to 100
• Reduced HP gain from Breath Transformation (Level 12) from 30 to 20 HP
• Reduced HP gain from Primal Transformation (Level 8) from 25 to 15 HP (Same as other transformations on its tier)

Hero Class: Ranger
Scatter shot got reworked a bit to be more flexible in its uses. Swapped around Skirmisher and Melee training to give earlier access to the slippery property even for ranged focused ranger builds.

• Skirmisher training and melee training have swapped positions
• Scatter shot action point cost reduced from 3 to 1
• Scatter shot range reduced to 4

Hero Class: Death Knight

• Curse is now a free action, with a 1 hex range and 3 turn cooldown
• Swapped the positions of Melee Mage and Dark Ritual in the tree, so that Dark Ritual comes first

• Mythic units got +10% Increased Damage, +10hp, +1 Defense, +1 Resistance
• Pyre Templar - Base Defense reduced from 5 to 4
• Umbral Mistress - Base Movement speed reduced from 48 (Very fast) to 32 (Normal)

---

Skills

• Mage / Spellblade
  • Wildfire Strikes description updated to correctly indicate it works on all base attacks.
• Order
  • Fixed Lead by Example duplicating/repeating Additional Effects of Support Abilities

It is most amazing to have a quick fix.
Now that we have 23 skills points
Could you please consider adding one skill point on level 1 and 20? Heroes feel extremely basic at the start without an ability to give them a starting skill and at 20 something extra is needed to mark the final level of power achieved
it would set the heroes limit at 25/28 skill points with Cult of Personality

 

[Rimirel]

I think it's wrong to just nerf all heroes. I think different heroes should have different stats. Ranger? Less hit points and defense, but more evasion (but increases in melee three). Mage? Less hit points and defense, but high magic defense. Defender? High all defenses. Etc

The most important thing is that each class after the first invested point gets some bright opportunity to fulfill its role (currently the support is the best with this). The defender needs to level up for a long time before that

 

[Kitschy]

I supposed it is what Triumph planned,
Seem to me evident that there will be others class, and that existing one will be developped in the futur (too many skill look like others right now).
And this is the reason why i not modded a lot about class (only made 2 little and quick multiclass, just to play some of my rulers who are not with the class i expected), i'm waiting to see how they complete this feature before...

Yeap this update seems to be really solid from what it looks like. Fingers crossed they will actually redo Ritualist at some point 'cause that one is a mishmash of bits and pieces.


Btw looking at mages getting +30% more damage could be too much of a buff.