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unmerged(168525)

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Sep 23, 2009
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  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
I've had some harsh words to say about this game's AI so I've decided to pick it up again after the last patch and see what's happened. I played a couple of games that I thought would be as generous as possible for the AI - sandbox, little water and monster spawns on low and difficulty on Impossible.

I played against the Dragon Queen, Xara, Krel the Kingpin and Rajkh or whatever that guy's name is with the invisible face.

Early game was very challenging as the AI created buckets of troops with their massive cash reserve. It's nice to see the AI trying to focus fire and choosing the most vulnerable target where possible, but they don't deal with terrain well, often falling foul of swamp tiles or the like, getting slaughtered before reaching a viable target.

In my first game, the Dragon Queen fielded an enormous army but fortunately kept allying with me, as did Xara. Given the size of their armies, I wouldn't have survived early game were it not for these alliances. I was happy to see that they no longer offer vast sums of mana or gold for alliances from which they barely benefit. The Dragon Queen evidently went straight for the Unity spell in research and had started casting way before I was within reach of Counterspell. This didn't prompt other AI factions to break their alliance with her, apart from Xara (though they intermittently break and then reform alliances with the player and with each other for no apparent reason). While I tried to cut through Krel to attack her, it was clear I wasn't going to have the force required to take her capital in time. I thought Xara would come to my aid, but she had found a strip of water at the bottom of the map, and to my great disappointment, she was sending units uselessly back and forth in the water, going over the same tiles over and over.

Having said that, the AI beat me, and that hasn't happened in a while.

I decided to play again without the Unity spell victory condition, replacing Rachjkhjjhhk or whatever with Mallicus (?) and her undead.

Xara and the Dragon Queen made alliances with me again which at least afforded me the opportunity to study their behaviour. Early on, Xara came across a portal to another world. Before long both she and the Dragon Queen were pouring units through the portal to confront a gold dragon, innumerable elementals and other bad guys. I'm on turn 180 or so by now and the two ladies have sent literally hundreds of units to their death beyond the portal. The units are sent in in dribs and drabs, none above tier 2, with vast numbers of tier 1 melee units who can't even touch the dragon and it is cruel and useless slaughter. In that time I've enjoyed a long and vicious war with Krel who I've finally taken out, while Mallicus hasn't managed to do anything but sent about 6 units across the water to die at the tentacles of sea beasties.

The most remarkable thing I've noticed is that the AI amass huge stocks of mana but they just seem to cast heal spells and the odd lesser fireball early on. Later I saw one or two Raise the Land spells cast, to no apparent purpose. Since the AI just can't deal with water, it would be really nice to see them raise the land to allow their forces to cross without just being eaten by pernicious sea things, or to-ing and fro-ing absurdly.

At this point I've got tier 3 doods and a couple of heroes, so I know I've won. When I feel like it, I'll declare war on my allies and it'll be cakewalk. Having said that, the point of all this is that despite the fact that the AI is terribly flawed, I've had a lot of fun, and that's the point of playing a video game, after all. I finally feel I'm getting my money's worth on a game I initially felt cheated by.

Were it possible (and in terms of code I have no idea whether it is) what I'd like to see is:
1) AI use of strike forces. Instead of dribbles of units being sent to their doom, squads of mixed units sent at the pace of the slowest unit, with melee at the front.
2) Use of a wider variety of spells. The AI cannot deal with water - they should prioritise simply getting rid of water through Raise the Land (and maybe lower the land for mountains - and fertile land for swamps, while we're at it).
3) Simply do NOT send tier one units through portals. I could be wrong, but from what I've seen, when an AI unit walks onto a portal, it cannot but go through the portal. I saw full strength units lining up for a shot on the gold dragon that had practically committed genocide on their comrades, only to go back through the portal they had only just come through on the turn before.
4) For the love of sweet jebus, build training grounds and tier 3 units. Even once.

TL;DR: AI has improved but not much. It's no longer just obviously broken, at least not in sandbox. It does show a reckless disrespect for the value of life and some kind of hydrophobia that results in truly mental behaviour when confronting bodies of water. It also cannot resist portals, so just runs at them with open arms, wide eyes and no sense. The bottom line is that the game is pretty to look at and fun to play, but you will be shocked and disappointed by the weakness of the AI.

Finally, I can only imagine how difficult it is to code AI for a game as complex as this. My thanks to the Devs for their continued efforts.
 
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I agree there are still strange behavior.

In my last party, IA loss too easy his goal. Per example, an IA declare war to another. He travel his units during 20 turn ! (water...) He loss lot of units (water...) and when he finally reach his goal, a city of his rival...he sign peace ! IA waste theirs times about useless war and conflit. The IA must gain something (which is not gold or mana because they have infinite) : gain city,potent ressource or at least destroy enemy city / reduce his power.

IA also can't focus on objective. They should try to gain special ressource and put more focus one powerfull one like temple location.

Water and portail are also vast problem for IA. In water they should choice logical location for landing, not near 10 enemy units and not alone without support.
Similarly i don't understand how IA use their casting ability. When i was ally with one IA, many turn, she use offensive spell on MY neutral monster. They should'nt. They should buff their unit, with walter walking or levitate per example when they have to go by water. At least one or two unit (but powerfull) to protect the other and kill monster.
 
Shame to hear the AI has not gotten that much better.

Then again, you could be like the Age of Wonders dev team. They had to REWRITE the AI code in their game it was so borked....
 
The AI would not be all that bad if they didn't suicide their troops into a bottleneck and if they actually responded to terraforming. Seriously, I created an entire mountain range on a second world with the AI. What did they do? nothing. Their troops couldn't get to next world and they were stuck.
 
Here's a funny one: I met an AI on their home shard at about turn 120. They hadn't spread to the next shard which was beautiful and empty. When my one extremely advanced hero arrived, they immediately threw all sorts of peace gifts at me to assure I wouldn't attack them. I was only exploring with the one unit. I guess with me entering through the portal, they had just "seen" at last a way off their shard because when I left, they were all over the next shard but needed my hero to help them defeat the monsters there. Their units were all pathetic. How could they have not "seen" the portal before? I just don't get the programming here.

On the other hand, I have seen a lot of other improved changes to the AI, in the way they fight. They still only hurt my units letting them live with a few hit points left before running off, but in other ways, they seem more strategic.
 
I bought Warlock 1 on a total whim and ended up loving it. I bought it around the same time I bought Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes and ended up putting WAY more time in Warlock than LH. The state of the AI did not impact my enjoyment of the game - just playing against the world itself was pretty fun.

When Warlock 2 came out I was pumped but got scared off by the not-so-good reviews of the game.

How would you all compare the AI in its current state to the Warlock 1 AI? If it's pretty much the same or better, I will definitely buy Warlock 2.
 
I bought Warlock 1 on a total whim and ended up loving it. I bought it around the same time I bought Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes and ended up putting WAY more time in Warlock than LH. The state of the AI did not impact my enjoyment of the game - just playing against the world itself was pretty fun.

When Warlock 2 came out I was pumped but got scared off by the not-so-good reviews of the game.

How would you all compare the AI in its current state to the Warlock 1 AI? If it's pretty much the same or better, I will definitely buy Warlock 2.
After patches definitely better
 
I too very much enjoyed the first warlock and had assumed I would get the 2nd one straight after release. However I am not interested in the shard type gameplay and when I read the AI was still very poor I was very disappointed. The whole community mentioned it countless times after the release of the first Warlock game and and it looked like there had been no improvements. It left me very disappointed in the developer to be honest and I decided not to get it. I will at some point, with a very good sale price, but it is a shame as even with the improvements since the release of this 2nd game the AI still sounds poor. As the OP says it is now at least fun so that is one bright side.
 
The shard play is actually pretty fun, but it is also optional; the old Warlock 1 style is also available, if you prefer that. The AI has problems, but if it wasn't ruinous for you in the first game then there is no reason it will be ruinous for you now. Remember that game forums tend to emphasize problems and minimize what's good.
 
Every time people talk about AI in Warlock I remember Master of Magic.

That game despite being great classics suffered severely from bad AI. It was at least one degree worse then any comparable 4x game of that time (like Civilization). Yet still, everyone remember it fondly (including me).
 
Every time people talk about AI in Warlock I remember Master of Magic.

That game despite being great classics suffered severely from bad AI. It was at least one degree worse then any comparable 4x game of that time (like Civilization). Yet still, everyone remember it fondly (including me).
Probably because that game was as much about fighting the environment as it was fighting the other mages. Thus the focus was not as much on the AI as it is in the Civ series. I would say that the Warlock games also have a decent balance between fighting a hostile environment and fighting enemy mages. Whether the balance is enough to overlook the faults in the AI is a matter of opinion, but you can at least tune the amount of lair spawns to your liking when starting a new game.
 
Every time people talk about AI in Warlock I remember Master of Magic.

That game despite being great classics suffered severely from bad AI. It was at least one degree worse then any comparable 4x game of that time (like Civilization). Yet still, everyone remember it fondly (including me).

YES! The MoM AI was absolutely craptacular. And it was (and is) an amazing game.

To me the AI in Warlock 1 was just another part of the hostile world that the player was playing against.
 
Hit and miss just like anything else, but smarter than Civ V I say. Sometimes I swear what is the AI doing then it makes sense. Sometimes. A lot of times it does boneheaded decisions. But then again, what game doesn't the AI make bone headed decisions. All I can say is the AI is so much smarter than Civ V.
 
While I won't comment on strenght of Civ5 tactical AI, all factors considered, Civ5 provides greater challenge and thus has higher longevity.

Same was true when comparing Civ1/Civ2 to MoM, which makes whole thing more sad.
 
Well the Civ5 AI is decent now, with Brave New World and a few years of patches. But it started out in a pretty sorry state. And to be honest, the current Civ5 AI still does some pretty bone-headed things.

But I have certainly never played a 4X game that had an AI that played like a human would play. And I'm not sure that is a fair or realistic standard to measure the AI in a 4X game against in the first place. To me, the only real question is whether the AI is good enough to make the game fun for the player. If the AI is just steamroller fodder, obviously that is not going to be fun for most people. But the same goes if the AI so good that it is overwhelming.

But that's just my personal opinion. I think the AI in Warlock 1 got a pass from me because I approached that game more like a MoM-style sandbox than anything else. For some reason I never looked at Civ games in quite that way and I have a tendency to be more critical of the AI in those games.

Based on this conversation I will definitely be picking up Warlock 2.
 
How would you all compare the AI in its current state to the Warlock 1 AI? If it's pretty much the same or better, I will definitely buy Warlock 2.

I did not see that much AI issue in warlock 1. Which is surprising, because I suspect it's the same code. Unless the shard jumping objective makes the AI worse.


I had a few issue of settlers going back and forth on the same hex tiles for like an eternity.

Another problem is that they spam like crazy and turn everything in free cities and stronghold. I removed the buildings in my mod by hoping they will not build them.

An annoying thing that I hope can be modded, is the ability to rapidly switch from war to peace to non agression to alliance. It's very annoying because you are allied with player B which is in war with C, so you declare war on C, and prepare for war. But then they rapidly make peace and ally forcing you to ally again. It think relation should be higher because making alliance work. I'll try to see if it can be modded.

I bought Warlock 1 on a total whim and ended up loving it. I bought it around the same time I bought Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes and ended up putting WAY more time in Warlock than LH.

I had faith in fallen enchanteress, it ended up beign horrible.

Every time people talk about AI in Warlock I remember Master of Magic.

That game despite being great classics suffered severely from bad AI. It was at least one degree worse then any comparable 4x game of that time (like Civilization). Yet still, everyone remember it fondly (including me).

AI are very hard to design, so I sympathise with the programmers. But they seem to have made some design decision to make AI easier to code. For example, unit that transform themselves in boats is an ingenious way to solve unit transportation problem that were in games like Master of Magic. So I am surprised they still have problems with water.

The shard play is actually pretty fun, but it is also optional;

It's actually funnier that I would expect. I think it's the surprise of discovering new worlds. BUt unfortunately, I cannot finish the game, the 2 worlds before ainadra are so strong that I cannot pass. One of the world (shaow) require spirit attacking units, but I don't have any. So I am in a dead lock.

Probably because that game was as much about fighting the environment as it was fighting the other mages.

One idea that was brought to my mind, in cooperative board games AI can be managed by event cards that gives troubles to the player. Maybe a solution in fixing AI though having better random events. I was surprised by the new series of events and quest that could occur in the game. By making the game the challenge, instead of the wizards. Not sure if you could make those events happens to be a boon for other wizards, it would be some sort of way to power up the opposition artificially.

But I have certainly never played a 4X game that had an AI that played like a human would play.

The goal is not to make the AI play like a player, the goal is to give the player a good experience to keep him inside the flow. It's like if all the wizards and the world were actually actors trying to give you the optimal experience.


There are some XML tag regarding AI, maybe some improvements could be made there. I also saw a AI mod in the list, not sure what it exactly changes. Maybe that was before the patch.
 
I agree about what the AI is for. If a player looks at the AI as a replacement for a human opponent, he/she is bound to be disappointed. But if you look at the AI opponents as just another part of the environment that the player has to overcome then it's kind of a different story.

To me, a decent AI in a strategy game is one that the player has to account for. In other words, the AI should make alter my plans or come up with a new plan to deal with it or because of something that it does. Rocket science on the AI's part is not required for that to happen. All the AI has to do is present a credible obstacle to victory and, personally, that's all it takes for me to not think a game is ruined do to bad/poor AI.

I also think that the cooperative board game analogy is a good one. Those games are very PvE, to use a MMORPG term.
 
I have yet to buy Warlock 2, and AI concerns are one the major reasons why this hasn't happened (that and I'm broke).
I have a few questions:

In Warlock 1, the AI, without being buffed by higher difficulty, could not manage the resources to upgrade units to be sufficiently powerful. Is this still the case?

I was usually quite impressed with the AI's tactical abilities. From what the OP said, it seems that tactically speaking, the AI in Warlock 2 is worse. Is this true?

Does the AI manage Lords/Heroes well?

Does the AI make useless attacks on units that are resistant to the attack type?
 
I did not test the AI much. The upgradable perk are now finite, which means that the AI could equip them on the wrong people.

Does the AI make useless attacks on units that are resistant to the attack type?

In my debug mod where everybody has immunity to everything, AI get attacked.

The new city conversion system which is very disadvantaging seem to be used by the AI too much. So in the end, the AI shoot himself in the foot. I just played civ 5 recently, and puppet cities would have been a better solution.