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Wow. Cool. I was thinking two days on how to start a thread with a post full of ideas possible solutions to different problems and in depth mechanics. But sure, that's a great way to start a discussion too. :/
I think they have to remake it, they need to make airplane wings of 2 airplanes. They would act as the leader and the wingman.
They would engage enemies coordinated.
You could set stances for them and take advantages of their traits.
Ie.
Stance a) dogfight. The pair engages in a turning fight every time they get into a fight. (Good to use when your enemy is a worse
turner or can catch u easily) They loose their speed but if the enemy doesn't respond they get into a dogfight in which better turner will likely win.
Stance b) hit and run the unit attacks and when they miss they run for their own troops trying to pull away from the enemy. Better suited for faster and worse turning planes. They do one attack and do a big circle keeping their speed. Gives a bonus to accuracy during the attack and do not maneuver defensively which might be easy to exploit by another fast plane.
Stance c) defensive split. they split up and
one plane drags the enemy pair and gets defensive becoming harder to hit but and
the second gets on their tail. Best used by planes with good roll rate and high speed maneuverability.
That's all I have for now. I tried to keep it out of vertical plain so that its more comprehensive and simplistic for sake of the RTS. Every airplane can use those but it depends on their enemy how good they will be in that role.
I made it with 4 stats in mind:
Speed
Acceleration
Roll rate
Turn time.
PS. They also need to make cones of vision or hit and run attacks will be impossible execute.
PS2. You could also let them use tactics on their own, as they please if you do not want to micro them. I am on my phone so its hard to make a big post.
I think they have to remake it, they need to make airplane wings of 2 airplanes. They would act as the leader and the wingman.
They would engage enemies coordinated.
You could set stances for them and take advantages of their traits.
Ie.
Stance a) dogfight. The pair engages in a turning fight every time they get into a fight. (Good to use when your enemy is a worse
turner or can catch u easily) They loose their speed but if the enemy doesn't respond they get into a dogfight in which better turner will likely win.
Stance b) hit and run the unit attacks and when they miss they run for their own troops trying to pull away from the enemy. Better suited for faster and worse turning planes. They do one attack and do a big circle keeping their speed. Gives a bonus to accuracy during the attack and do not maneuver defensively which might be easy to exploit by another fast plane.
Stance c) defensive split. they split up and
one plane drags the enemy pair and gets defensive becoming harder to hit but and
the second gets on their tail. Best used by planes with good roll rate and high speed maneuverability.
That's all I have for now. I tried to keep it out of vertical plain so that its more comprehensive and simplistic for sake of the RTS. Every airplane can use those but it depends on their enemy how good they will be in that role.
I made it with 4 stats in mind:
Speed
Acceleration
Roll rate
Turn time.
PS. They also need to make cones of vision or hit and run attacks will be impossible execute.
PS2. You could also let them use tactics on their own, as they please if you do not want to micro them. I am on my phone so its hard to make a big post.
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it's only there to start the discussion. Elaborate ideas in an opening post often stifle out discussion of others, and I'd rather have the main issue at the forefront for others to disagree with and try to solve.
I can't see any meaningful implementation of energy fighting. Nor can I see Red Dragon's 8s evac making sense when planes have limited engagement ranges and fly at lower speeds. Necessarily high detection ranges against bombers and attack planes, if extended to fighters, will make turn times just as inconsequential as they were in RD. Burst damage, without extreme modifiers, may be too deadly to fighters, or not deadly enough against other kinds of planes. And then there's the HP system, which is allegedly disappearing.
There's just so many questions about aerial combat.
I can't see any meaningful implementation of energy fighting. Nor can I see Red Dragon's 8s evac making sense when planes have limited engagement ranges and fly at lower speeds. Necessarily high detection ranges against bombers and attack planes, if extended to fighters, will make turn times just as inconsequential as they were in RD. Burst damage, without extreme modifiers, may be too deadly to fighters, or not deadly enough against other kinds of planes. And then there's the HP system, which is allegedly disappearing.
There's just so many questions about aerial combat.
- Jul 1, 2015
- 3.713
- 3.517
Please don't do that in the future
. If I see a thread with nothing but a title and a single word, it gets locked for spam. If you have thoughts and ideas about a game concept, elaborate on the from the get go, don't "hold off" and see what others say.
You either be lazy and make it an HeadOn RNG roll engagement, on draw the one with the better turning radius wins.
or
You micromanage feints and baits to get your plane behind the other and win.
or
You micromanage feints and baits to get your plane behind the other and win.
I am for being told when my decks air power is on station and loitering and then calling it down to attack with an air direction control officer on the ground. You know a raf cooperation officer... Cannot remember the term.
At least the different altitude system could find it`s way in?
ASFs elevate to intercept bombers,famous dive-bombing Ju87 Stuka, etc
Not the abstract aerial combat in WG,no.
ASFs elevate to intercept bombers,famous dive-bombing Ju87 Stuka, etc
Not the abstract aerial combat in WG,no.
Lets face it first, this time air has to be done massively different from RD. Fighters have to com way closer to engage, AA has also a mutch mutch smaler effektiv zone and aswell, the speed difference between a Bomber and a Fighter is Massiv. So let's see what it needs to set up some nice Air fights.
Lets first talk about the call in mechanics.
I bett there will be zones from where the planes fly in, but this time it would be nice to see them return to this zone as well. Not just escape by pulling up like in RD. Remember, you can deep strike with fighters this time, and you kinda need it since you can not just call in a plane and fire a missile across the map. It would create a situation where you have to escort your planes back out of the map and even can draw in enemy fighters.
Don't fear the 'headon all day'.
This will not be such a problem, since planes will not be 1000km fast. Mostly it will e half of this and even lower after the first turns, you will have plenty of time to micro it and outplay your enemy by maneuvering a 2. fighter behind him. Also there were planes that were just 'better' in a face to face attack. So you will see more fighter types on the field.
Bombers and ground control.
Ind RD they were mostly just a call in suicide trade, thx to their massive firepower on point and the deadly AAs. Nothing like this we will see here i hope. In fact, we should split them up. Let's say we make a Heavy bombers department and a close ground support department.
To call in a heavy bomber, you need nothing. But you can't direct them on point. See them more like artillery strikes. Pick a Forest or a Town and select it for bombers. We are talking here about heavy He111 and alike. Once called in you can not change the target, all you can do is call an emergency drop which means the bombs are dropped and he flies away. They are slow so you will have the need to call in a fighter to escort them as well. See them more as an counter to Arty massing, which if on the map, will be mostly towed and not very mobile. And remember, there are no ground to air missiles and AA is really not that effektiv on this combat scale. so you can deep strike with them, until you run into enemy fighters.
The close ground support should be deadly, they should still be counter to a uncovered superheavy or an heavy resistance point. talking about stukas to drop pin point bombs in buildings, and 'Kanonenvögel' to lay waste on enemy tanks. But you should need a radio operator in the close area. If you have one, fine, call in the attack, change targets as you like and control the planes directly. Something like this will enhance the role of recons and commando units behind enemy lines, something the US Airborne can highly profit from to stop ze German Panzers.
Fighters dont rly counter them, something like a Thunderbolt or FW190 is a fighter themselves, you see enemy fighters you just run and be safe. This is where AA comes in handy again.
So let's see on the AA.
Don't make it deadly... Pls.. we have to face that a lonely 88 is not sniping planes across the map like a 9K37 Buk did. And a quad 20mm will not rape planes like a Gepard.. Heavy AA like the 88mm should be the counter to Bombers, not against fast moving fighters and ground attack planes. And even then you should need them in mass to kill. 1 or 2 scattered around the map? Should be useless. Massed, like 3-4 in a small forest, perfekt capable to hold off an Bomber. But even then only in a kinda small area around them. Make the Hvy AA capable to defend a Important location Like the 1 VP you need to capture where everything is focusing on. Or the mass of Arty you pile up in this liddell forrest. Make it expensive So people need to chose where to set up the AA strong point which is save but still fighters stay the focus of anti bomber action.
The small 20mm and 37mm guns? Don't make them rape bombers. or anything in fact.. Mostly this guns were used to force planes away from something not to kill them. And that's totally fine. They should be effektiv even in small numbers. Let's say a pair of Whirlwinds or simply 2 towed 4x20mm near your heavy tanks, you should be kinda save against ground attack planes. Make them in the style of the Shilkas. Let them stun enemy attack planes that com in so they can't bomb, but only with soft damage output. If he tries to attack you 3-4 times sure he's dead. But every time he will be stunned, saving your tanks and giving you the opportunity to call in fighters or stress out the enemy planes..
In fact, pls give planes space. they don't need to be deadly if they can move more freely on the map. Change them from the on point killers to more like a swarm of bees harassing your lines. This will even open the change of recon planes.
Lets first talk about the call in mechanics.
I bett there will be zones from where the planes fly in, but this time it would be nice to see them return to this zone as well. Not just escape by pulling up like in RD. Remember, you can deep strike with fighters this time, and you kinda need it since you can not just call in a plane and fire a missile across the map. It would create a situation where you have to escort your planes back out of the map and even can draw in enemy fighters.
Don't fear the 'headon all day'.
This will not be such a problem, since planes will not be 1000km fast. Mostly it will e half of this and even lower after the first turns, you will have plenty of time to micro it and outplay your enemy by maneuvering a 2. fighter behind him. Also there were planes that were just 'better' in a face to face attack. So you will see more fighter types on the field.
Bombers and ground control.
Ind RD they were mostly just a call in suicide trade, thx to their massive firepower on point and the deadly AAs. Nothing like this we will see here i hope. In fact, we should split them up. Let's say we make a Heavy bombers department and a close ground support department.
To call in a heavy bomber, you need nothing. But you can't direct them on point. See them more like artillery strikes. Pick a Forest or a Town and select it for bombers. We are talking here about heavy He111 and alike. Once called in you can not change the target, all you can do is call an emergency drop which means the bombs are dropped and he flies away. They are slow so you will have the need to call in a fighter to escort them as well. See them more as an counter to Arty massing, which if on the map, will be mostly towed and not very mobile. And remember, there are no ground to air missiles and AA is really not that effektiv on this combat scale. so you can deep strike with them, until you run into enemy fighters.
The close ground support should be deadly, they should still be counter to a uncovered superheavy or an heavy resistance point. talking about stukas to drop pin point bombs in buildings, and 'Kanonenvögel' to lay waste on enemy tanks. But you should need a radio operator in the close area. If you have one, fine, call in the attack, change targets as you like and control the planes directly. Something like this will enhance the role of recons and commando units behind enemy lines, something the US Airborne can highly profit from to stop ze German Panzers.
Fighters dont rly counter them, something like a Thunderbolt or FW190 is a fighter themselves, you see enemy fighters you just run and be safe. This is where AA comes in handy again.
So let's see on the AA.
Don't make it deadly... Pls.. we have to face that a lonely 88 is not sniping planes across the map like a 9K37 Buk did. And a quad 20mm will not rape planes like a Gepard.. Heavy AA like the 88mm should be the counter to Bombers, not against fast moving fighters and ground attack planes. And even then you should need them in mass to kill. 1 or 2 scattered around the map? Should be useless. Massed, like 3-4 in a small forest, perfekt capable to hold off an Bomber. But even then only in a kinda small area around them. Make the Hvy AA capable to defend a Important location Like the 1 VP you need to capture where everything is focusing on. Or the mass of Arty you pile up in this liddell forrest. Make it expensive So people need to chose where to set up the AA strong point which is save but still fighters stay the focus of anti bomber action.
The small 20mm and 37mm guns? Don't make them rape bombers. or anything in fact.. Mostly this guns were used to force planes away from something not to kill them. And that's totally fine. They should be effektiv even in small numbers. Let's say a pair of Whirlwinds or simply 2 towed 4x20mm near your heavy tanks, you should be kinda save against ground attack planes. Make them in the style of the Shilkas. Let them stun enemy attack planes that com in so they can't bomb, but only with soft damage output. If he tries to attack you 3-4 times sure he's dead. But every time he will be stunned, saving your tanks and giving you the opportunity to call in fighters or stress out the enemy planes..
In fact, pls give planes space. they don't need to be deadly if they can move more freely on the map. Change them from the on point killers to more like a swarm of bees harassing your lines. This will even open the change of recon planes.
Well the Key problem with any suggestion of Air-to-air dogfights in Normandy is at Battalion Level they're about as Realistic as hordes of Me-262 fighter bombers.
On the 6th June alone the Allied air forces flew 14,674 combat sorties. The Luftwaffe managed 319. Any real question of German Bombers getting through is frankly absurd,especially with anything as slow as a Stuka or a Bomber. The instances of German Aircraft in Normandy come down to two occasions: D-Day to D+5/6, before the RAF and USAAF deployed into normandy and the Germans had far faster response times, and the Sowing of sea mines at night.
The key Axis weapon against the "Jabo's" is well placed camouflaged flak batteries.
Also, if I open this game and See 'Lancaster Bomber' as a support option, I'll cry. And livestream it so Eugen have to watch.
On the 6th June alone the Allied air forces flew 14,674 combat sorties. The Luftwaffe managed 319. Any real question of German Bombers getting through is frankly absurd,especially with anything as slow as a Stuka or a Bomber. The instances of German Aircraft in Normandy come down to two occasions: D-Day to D+5/6, before the RAF and USAAF deployed into normandy and the Germans had far faster response times, and the Sowing of sea mines at night.
The key Axis weapon against the "Jabo's" is well placed camouflaged flak batteries.
Also, if I open this game and See 'Lancaster Bomber' as a support option, I'll cry. And livestream it so Eugen have to watch.
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I would love to see a system of high and low altitudes. It would allow things like showing different performance of aircraft at altitudes (some were great down low but sucked high up and vice versa) and a variety of interesting options for planes. Fighters escorting level bombers, dive bombers, boom and zoom tactics, etc.
If fighters could act as a pair and automatically execute a thatch weave, I would weep. Without those sorts of abilities, I fear that any attempt to have even remotely realistic stats and capabilities for aircraft would result in US fighters getting demolished in simple turn-fighting engagements.
If fighters could act as a pair and automatically execute a thatch weave, I would weep. Without those sorts of abilities, I fear that any attempt to have even remotely realistic stats and capabilities for aircraft would result in US fighters getting demolished in simple turn-fighting engagements.
How about instead of having to micromanage them, they automatically execute more and better maneuvers based on their veterancy level?
Meh, I don't like things that are basically 'deploy unit, watch what it does', seems like there's little control there and just sounds like an RNG modifier which I think we're trying to avoid since RD was just that.