Allow Agrarian Idyll empires to learn Anti-Gravity Engineering

[indalecio248]

They're barred currently, as that would allow them to take Arcology Project, which would be thematically opposite of what they're all about. That last part is fine. However, Anti-gravity Engineering also allows for Habitation Modules on Orbital Rings, which are one of the more useful modules. These increase the districts and building slots on a planet, and I don't think it would be off-brand for an Agrarian Idyll society to have one. Maybe it could also have a slightly different effect for Agrarian Idyll builds, but I'm not sure what would be appropriate here.

EDIT:
In other words, less Coruscant and more Tomorrowland.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Obligatory, since the opposite is being assumed in a few places: Agrarian Idyll is, by default, vaguely anti-environmentalist. Its core mechanic is to cause you pave over more nature in order to get the same housing (via lower per-city housing), or to get the same building slots (via needing 4 agri-districts to get one slot).

Fields of crops may literally be the color green, but they're not "green" in the environmental sense: they're an environmental hazard cocktail of pesticides, fertilizer runoff, and wildlife eradication to protect crops from pest losses.

The one thing Agrarian Idyll definitely is, is anti-urbanist. And urbanization is (generally*) environmentalist: better to house your citizens in high density housing with efficient transit than to spread that same number of people out over a larger area, paving over more of nature to so do. Ex. 10 acres could either hold 20 single family homes, or 2 apartment buildings housing those same 20 families and 8 acres of woodland. The latter both uses less resources and just literally preserves more space for the actual natural environment.

It also incentivizes you to clear blockers for more district space and agri-district capacity, which is the opposite of what Environmentalist defines as "preserving nature". Though that connection is quite a bit weaker.

*with the notable exception of an ecu, though even that's debatable: by default an ecu crams 5 planets worth of housing and 3 planets worth of jobs onto a single planet. One could argue that having 1 ecu and 2 completely undeveloped planets is theoretically more environmentalist than fully industrialized forge worlds, but that doesn't prevent the horrors of ecocide for the unlucky ecumenopolis planet.

---

You could absolutely have a headcanoned solarpunk Agrarian Idyll empire. The mechanics aren't so explicitly anti-environmentalist that it's incompatible. But it's not what the mechanics imply by default.

This is all sort of orthogonal to the thread topic, though.

I, too, am in favor of allowing AI empires to research Anti-Gravity, and instead directly barring them from taking the Arcology Project (and, possibly, restoring ecus from relics too).

 

[Abdulijubjub]

For an eco-ecu:

• Tons of overlap with the concept of gaia worlds, already. Though I still think Gaia worlds with World Shaper should get the Machine World treatment, and get extra jobs per district.
• https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Planet_modifiers#Arboreal_World If you could replicate this, and gaias got e.g. 4 jobs per district, you'd more or less scratch the same itch as an ecu, albeit with slightly lower efficiency per planet (4*(24+4+8)=144 vs. 6*(24+4)=168).
• Any eco-ecu should not be as dense or efficient as an actual ecu, because otherwise... why would anyone pave over their planet in the first place, if it didn't actually allow more density? But it can certainly be more dense/efficient than a normal world.

I would love an eco-ecu. But I think gaias are already supposed to fill that niche (conceptually). They're just doing a crappy job because their density isn't sufficient (and the need to still have basic resource production available constrains their design space).

Giving gaias extra density if you have the World Shaper perk would be a great compromise, though.

Not sure what it has to do with Agrarian Idyll, though.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Artificial gravity tech should allow agrarians to go for super tall vertical farming.
Skyscrapers of lush vegetation full of fruit and vegetables

Agrarian Idyll
A simple and peaceful life can often be the most rewarding. This agrarian society has, to a large extent, managed to avoid large-scale urbanization.

An Agrarian Idyll empire would probably hate that.

 

[DarkHelmet110985]

I made a similar topic awhile back with the goal of getting Orbital Rings for more Districts and consequently boosting output. I do like the idea of World Shaper buffing Gaia Worlds in that they generate extra jobs per District compared to the “base 9” or Wet/Dry/Frozen worlds. How that would work with Anglers though has to be hashed out but I’d think with 4 jobs that it’d be 3 Anglers to 1 Pearl Diver, which would reduce the need for Hydroponics. Although I’m unsure how that’s going to work in the 4.0 overhaul given Buildings are a premium. Speaking of Anglers, I wouldn’t mind World Shaper also allowing you to create more Ocean Paradise Worlds if you have Hydrocentric as well(or if it gets merged into World Shaper along with Detox as a general Terraforming Ascension Perk).

 

[Armagodura]

For an eco-ecu:

• Tons of overlap with the concept of gaia worlds, already. Though I still think Gaia worlds with World Shaper should get the Machine World treatment, and get extra jobs per district.
• https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Planet_modifiers#Arboreal_World If you could replicate this, and gaias got e.g. 4 jobs per district, you'd more or less scratch the same itch as an ecu, albeit with slightly lower efficiency per planet (4*(24+4+8)=144 vs. 6*(24+4)=168).
• Any eco-ecu should not be as dense or efficient as an actual ecu, because otherwise... why would anyone pave over their planet in the first place, if it didn't actually allow more density? But it can certainly be more dense/efficient than a normal world.

I would love an eco-ecu. But I think gaias are already supposed to fill that niche (conceptually). They're just doing a crappy job because their density isn't sufficient (and the need to still have basic resource production available constrains their design space).

Giving gaias extra density if you have the World Shaper perk would be a great compromise, though.

Not sure what it has to do with Agrarian Idyll, though.

Solid points! I like them specially because in my POV they reinforce the point in just letting arcologies exist outside of actual ecumenopolises!

New idea from this: maybe the "Arcology Project" decision, instead of consisting on choking a planet with urban sprawl it simply means "establishing the infrastructure necessary to build arcologies instead of normal cities (and seriously terraforming the planet into a very convenient form where all the tectonic activity has been outright tamed to allow building all you want, anywhere, without fear of a random seismic move undoing anything, without needing to actually remove any nature in the process)"

Of course, as stated before by Abdulijubjub, this stuff is all more for environmentalists rather than agrarian idylls, but it's still worthy of consideration.

As for agraian idylls... how about rural versions of industrial districts, as in smaller scale factories in the form of people just having the means to assemble what they need by themselves in smaller smithies and workshops rather than full-scale factories? I personally believe it would strongly reinforce that solarpunk vibe.

 

[GhostDanny]

An Agrarian Idyll empire would probably hate that.

Meant more just sparsely placed super tall vertical farms, with plenty of regular farms/nature in between.
Especially helpful if they're also environmentalists, to preserve nature.

 

[indalecio248]

As for agraian idylls... how about rural versions of industrial districts, as in smaller scale factories in the form of people just having the means to assemble what they need by themselves in smaller smithies and workshops rather than full-scale factories? I personally believe it would strongly reinforce that solarpunk vibe.

You mean cottage industries? Yeah, that could work, maybe combine it with a good second-hand market. Though I usually represent that as part of the Mercantile tradition tree idea 'Adaptive Economic Policies' and the 'Consumer Benefits' trade policy in my own games. Basically the idea that everyone is either making their own, borrowing, or buying second-hand. That scientist isn't buying their scanning electron microscope new, he's buying it second-hand, because its still in good condition, and he doesn't have the budget to get a new one. Or something like that.

 

[NotAYakk]

Agrarian Utopias should unlock an alternative orbital ring building, like "climate optimizer", that adds +1 district as well. Different only in forms of flavour.

 

[Beauty Nova]

I'd love it if we had some actual ecological architecture in the Arcology Project AP.

In addition to the current Ecumenopolis (which is awesome and I want to keep for non-Agri Idyll empires), there should be ways to make integrated industrial colonies where your pops don't need to destroy every scrap of native life on the planet's surface.

I'd like this for environmentalists or even just general empires, but agrarianism is not environmentalism, it is about cultivation and ruralism. Agrarian Idyll can't build ecus not because they oppose environmental destruction, they can't because they oppose urbanization.

 

[indalecio248]

Some other thoughts.

Start Agrarian Idyll empires with the option for Bio-Reactors and Advanced Bio-Reactors. I can also see Environmentalist empires wanting it also for different reasons. Agrarians would like it because they have lots of food, and diverting some of it into energy and trade value just makes good sense. Enviros would like it because it would make them carbon neutral and reduce needs for fossil fuels in their past.

Also for Enviros, make Rangers similar to Primal Calling's Wranglers. You get a set amount on your capital, and a building to get more. They provide different bonus based on your civics and stance, and as your population expands, you get new wrangler jobs.

Rangers should be comparable to Wranglers. You get some on your capital, with the option to get more via building and 1 more job every x amount of population on the planet. They should also give comparable benefits to wranglers, because at current, wranglers just seem to be the superior option.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Some other thoughts.

Start Agrarian Idyll empires with the option for Bio-Reactors and Advanced Bio-Reactors. I can also see Environmentalist empires wanting it also for different reasons. Agrarians would like it because they have lots of food, and diverting some of it into energy and trade value just makes good sense. Enviros would like it because it would make them carbon neutral and reduce needs for fossil fuels in their past.

Yup.

Catalytic starts with bioreactors so that you can do the nothing-but-farmers run, if you like. But only Agrarian Idyll and Anglers actually have an incentive to use them.

Also for Enviros, make Rangers similar to Primal Calling's Wranglers. You get a set amount on your capital, and a building to get more. They provide different bonus based on your civics and stance, and as your population expands, you get new wrangler jobs.

Rangers should be comparable to Wranglers. You get some on your capital, with the option to get more via building and 1 more job every x amount of population on the planet. They should also give comparable benefits to wranglers, because at current, wranglers just seem to be the superior option.

The two are just different. Rangers scale with natural blockers (including preserves) rather than with population.

I do agree that they're a bit too weak (currently only serving a purpose as infrastructure-free scaling). But the beta makes them into a biologist job swap, which makes the problem go away.