Alternative history becoming too invasive?

[Robosoldier1]

Now that we have a new DLC on its way I want to ask if anyone feels that this Alternative history stance Paradox has been really digging into as of late is a bit too much? Now Don't get me wrong I get that as soon as you start the game it instantaneously falls outside the realm of what actually happened in WW2, obviously. I also understand that both as a content and economic decision, its to appease the SP crowd and allow them to branch out more and not tire of the game after the 80th-200th time running through it.

However the way Paradox is really gearing up in terms of the scale and content in which nation building takes place through the choices laid out by focus trees, kind bothers me. Just take a look at the recent design changes to Germany and Japan. Probably half of that content laid out there resides within the realm of alternative history decisions and that to me is just a bit much.

Alternative history is fine but there perception of it is not the simple, what would the outcome be if Hitler made X choice instead of Y? Instead they decide to go with these out of reach scenarios that just dismantles any notion of WW2 being a thing. Since much of their alternative history decisions follow a set theme and more then not leads them to fight the rest of the world just because, hey its cool to kill everyone as X nation only now were communist!

I think really a philosophy shift needs to take place and maybe have some scenarios that have some true merit to them. I mean ya I get it, not alot of people liked Hitler, and many of people were gunning for him, and a power vacuum would've opened up if he got removed. But what the hell are the chances that a national movement would take place to restore the Kaiser? Is there actual historical reference that notes a huge body of the German people wanting their Monarch back, or is it just Paradox cooking up a scenario just because?

Idk, overall I just want to see some more choice lined within the historic setting and choices that make alt history outcomes and decisions less of a meme.

 

[Kadanz]

As long as the alternative history is plausible I don't have much problems with it. The wehrmacht has never been completely loyal to hitler and the nazi's even at the height of his power (hitler). Him being overthrown because he wanted to challenge the versailles treaty is very plausible. There is room for a proper debate here depending on what sources you want to believe.

In general I'm glad they're moving away from this hardcoded and railroaded WWII game. HoI 3 suffered immensly from this. The problem with this game is that PDX tried to satisfy 2 player bases and failing at both of them. the game is oversimplified to the extend that the game is hardly challenging, the AI is horrible as far as it can't use most of the systems present in the game and the systems it can use, it uses in the most arbitrary way that makes you want to pull your hair out and eat it.

 

[EltharionDrax]

There is a difference between Sandbox and Free-for-all. To make a REALLY exaggerated example, if there is no basis in history for the events within the game, you might as well have an event where aliens land to join WW2. UK and France intervening in the Winter War was seriously considered and is the kind of alt-history that the game should focus on, The South rising to join The Roman Empire in a war against Kaiserreich and Austria-Hungary is too far-out for me.

I thought about this and think that the big problem with HOI 4 is that there is no end-game: defeating USSR as Germany pays off with a list giving you a score based on some rather goofy logic, so you don't really feel like they reward you for time invested. Instead, the alt-history material is bulking up the early-to-mid-game parts and gives a more immediate sense of satisfaction when difficult objectives like restoring Austria-Hungary is achieved or emergent narratives give you cool stories, but even so the end-game remains hollow.

I hope more focus would be given to end-game sooner rather than later or I fear that at some point HOI 4 will be a game where you start new games to see how you can warp history in the most interesting or funny way, but when the NF-tree and tech-tree runs out, you stop playing and restart because what's the point beyond that to play?

 

[Meglok]

Now that we have a new DLC on its way I want to ask if anyone feels that this Alternative history stance Paradox has been really digging into as of late is a bit too much? Now Don't get me wrong I get that as soon as you start the game it instantaneously falls outside the realm of what actually happened in WW2, obviously. I also understand that both as a content and economic decision, its to appease the SP crowd and allow them to branch out more and not tire of the game after the 80th-200th time running through it.

However the way Paradox is really gearing up in terms of the scale and content in which nation building takes place through the choices laid out by focus trees, kind bothers me. Just take a look at the recent design changes to Germany and Japan. Probably half of that content laid out there resides within the realm of alternative history decisions and that to me is just a bit much.

Alternative history is fine but there perception of it is not the simple, what would the outcome be if Hitler made X choice instead of Y? Instead they decide to go with these out of reach scenarios that just dismantles any notion of WW2 being a thing. Since much of their alternative history decisions follow a set theme and more then not leads them to fight the rest of the world just because, hey its cool to kill everyone as X nation only now were communist!

I think really a philosophy shift needs to take place and maybe have some scenarios that have some true merit to them. I mean ya I get it, not alot of people liked Hitler, and many of people were gunning for him, and a power vacuum would've opened up if he got removed. But what the hell are the chances that a national movement would take place to restore the Kaiser? Is there actual historical reference that notes a huge body of the German people wanting their Monarch back, or is it just Paradox cooking up a scenario just because?

Idk, overall I just want to see some more choice lined within the historic setting and choices that make alt history outcomes and decisions less of a meme.

Not at all. The alt history stuff is all about expanding the marketing appeal.

You are never be forced to go down some of the main alternative history paths as a player, and the ai will not choose them on historical. Unless of course there is a problem within the programing.

 

[Telenil]

I don't have much of a problem with it as long as there is a Historical Focus option. If you want a relatively standard WW2, you can always make it happen.

 

[a_sophist]

Though I doubt we'll never know the answer, I'd be curious to know just how content work for the game is divided. I understand that simply throwing more people at AI fixes won't make the AI better quicker so that's a separate issue, but if mechanics like the upcoming naval and supply reworks are arriving at this long overdue point because content development time had to be shared with meme focus trees, I'd find that annoying.

 

[MrTrt]

I don't have much of a problem with it as long as there is a Historical Focus option. If you want a relatively standard WW2, you can always make it happen.

Agree. Although I think that, as time goes on, we should get maybe more than one binary historical/not historical option. As more and more countries get their focus trees with alt-history paths, we have the risk of the game becoming too crazy and random if every country goes down their alt-history path.

 

[Uniform764]

Though I doubt we'll never know the answer, I'd be curious to know just how content work for the game is divided. I understand that simply throwing more people at AI fixes won't make the AI better quicker so that's a separate issue, but if mechanics like the upcoming naval and supply reworks are arriving at this long overdue point because content development time had to be shared with meme focus trees, I'd find that annoying.

Likewise. I'm not overly offended by ahistorical stuff, but I prefer a historical game. However whether I'm playing historical or ahistorical the major issue I have is that the gameplay is just not particularly engaging at all. Compared to Hoi3, Vicky, or EU I find myself making less hard choices or interesting decisions throughout the game and winning/getting bored of the campaign way too soon.

 

[Ironside121]

I want plausible alt history, which is what the game can do VERY well. Y'know like France backing the Czechs, or the UK invading Scandinavia to cut the Germans trade. They were plausible.


Japan becoming Communist?
USA having a second Civil War (hinted at in the trailer for the next DLC) is highly damn unlikely.

Please god no.

Even on historical these things still have a chance of happening. I don't like it because there may be a small chance, but soon there's going to be so many possible 10% chances of an alt tree being chosen(as we are getting more) that one will happen in a game, and derail it.

All I want is just ONE more option where we can have 100% historical options, and it'll be fine. What we have now is non-historical, 90% historical, and nothing else. Just give me the 100% one damnit

 

[Louella]

I don't mind a bit of alt-history, especially when it relates to the equipment used, and whether the strategic operations that were a big gamble turned out differently.

Things like... the Hawker Tornado entering service rather than a prototype that would evolve into the Typhoon ? What if Germany built the Bf-109Z in large numbers ? What if the submarine offensive was effective enough to blockade the UK ? What if the Germans had succeeded at the Battle of Moscow ? What if the Bomber Mafia prevailed, and USA fighter development was stunted even further ? What if the Japanese had adopted a different aircrew training scheme, that preserved the experience and lessons learned, rather than squandering them ? What if Curtiss had enough production capacity that they could supply more P-40s, and wouldn't have to contract manufacturing out to North American, whose designers and engineers realised it would take just as long to set up a line for P-40's as it would to set up a line to build their own design, which ultimately resulted in the P-51 ?

But things can sometimes be taken too far, and sudden changes in politics can be a bit jarring, I feel.

 

[Officer Crabtree]

Even on historical these things still have a chance of happening. I don't like it because there may be a small chance, but soon there's going to be so many possible 10% chances of an alt tree being chosen(as we are getting more) that one will happen in a game, and derail it.

All I want is just ONE more option where we can have 100% historical options, and it'll be fine. What we have now is non-historical, 90% historical, and nothing else. Just give me the 100% one damnit

There is no chance of the weird alt-history choices happening with Historical AI Focuses on. The odds of the really ahistorical focuses (Commie Japan / Kaiserreich) being picked are less than 10% with historical focuses off. Basically, you have an option that allows you to play a game which is as historical as the game in it's current state will allow. Any deviations are due to the fact that the game balance is completely off compared to the real thing, but that won't change as a more realistic portrayal of industry and equipment capabilities would make the game very predictable. Aside from that the combat AI will display an unrealistic level of incompetence, leading to a defeat of the SU in almost all games.
Note that if you do ahistorical things yourself, historical AI focuses gets disabled for some (if not all) majors.

 

[Jabby]

Now that we have a new DLC on its way I want to ask if anyone feels that this Alternative history stance Paradox has been really digging into as of late is a bit too much? Now Don't get me wrong I get that as soon as you start the game it instantaneously falls outside the realm of what actually happened in WW2, obviously. I also understand that both as a content and economic decision, its to appease the SP crowd and allow them to branch out more and not tire of the game after the 80th-200th time running through it.

However the way Paradox is really gearing up in terms of the scale and content in which nation building takes place through the choices laid out by focus trees, kind bothers me. Just take a look at the recent design changes to Germany and Japan. Probably half of that content laid out there resides within the realm of alternative history decisions and that to me is just a bit much.

Alternative history is fine but there perception of it is not the simple, what would the outcome be if Hitler made X choice instead of Y? Instead they decide to go with these out of reach scenarios that just dismantles any notion of WW2 being a thing. Since much of their alternative history decisions follow a set theme and more then not leads them to fight the rest of the world just because, hey its cool to kill everyone as X nation only now were communist!

I think really a philosophy shift needs to take place and maybe have some scenarios that have some true merit to them. I mean ya I get it, not alot of people liked Hitler, and many of people were gunning for him, and a power vacuum would've opened up if he got removed. But what the hell are the chances that a national movement would take place to restore the Kaiser? Is there actual historical reference that notes a huge body of the German people wanting their Monarch back, or is it just Paradox cooking up a scenario just because?

Idk, overall I just want to see some more choice lined within the historic setting and choices that make alt history outcomes and decisions less of a meme.

So you’re saying you want historical alternate history?

 

[Uniform764]

So you’re saying you want historical alternate history?

I don't think it's a totally crazy concept.

 

[Jabby]

I don't think it's a totally crazy concept.

 

[CrazyZombie]

So you’re saying you want historical alternate history?

Tukhachevski coup is "historical alt history". Restoration of tzarism in Russia is not.

 

[Uniform764]

Pic

Wehrmach resists Hitler? Britain attacks Norway? Plausible to a greater or lesser extent. US Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo? Bullshit

 

[Duke_Dave]

If it creates interesting gameplay it doesn't even need to be plausible, the Anastasia leads the counter-revolution focus? Bring it on!
What is important to me is a reasonable division of labour, most work should go into modeling the historic situation and challenges, next Into plausible alt-history and after that meme-based non-sense, which I play as much as the other two options.

 

[DicRoNero]

Agree. Although I think that, as time goes on, we should get maybe more than one binary historical/not historical option. As more and more countries get their focus trees with alt-history paths, we have the risk of the game becoming too crazy and random if every country goes down their alt-history path.

This.

I always play with Historical Focuses Off, and while my intent is to see UK invading Sweden and Italy opposing Germany through Pact of Rome (for these two are insanely OP, I'd say both twice as powerful compared to history), getting things like Japanese Civil War is already quite irksome. Seeing that happening to the USA would be even worse.

 

[Telenil]

AI strategies should help with. Nations will pick their alternate history paths according to what a few "initiators" would decide. Currently I think it's only France always antagonizing Germany if they go Oppose Hitler, but Podcat said they would try to do that for every nation.

 

[safe-keeper]

I agree with this. I don't really see the point of totally implausible scenarios myself either, in a grand strategy WWII game. I always play with historical focii on, because while I like the (mostly) plausible alternate history scenarios that can play out, like Britain pre-emptively invading Yugoslavia, I don't care for wild sci-fi stuff like the US suddenly going communist from one day to the next or the Confederacy rising a second time.

I suppose there should be a third Historical Focus option that says "Ahistorical, but plausible". So you can have the Wehrmacht opposing Hitler, or Britain pre-emptively invading Norway as they came very close to in reality, but no implausible scenarios.