am I losing it or does materium not have a major transformation?

[Akani Sar-Teel]

Sotha Sil is a questionably sane archmage with the stolen power of a god running through him, who took his inspiration from an even more questionably sane, self-deleting species of metaphysical steampunk engineers. It might work as a leader (Godir) concept but an entire species of Sotha Sils would be a bit much.


Now, leaving aside the likelihood that Goldtouched was a major transformation at some point during development since it comes up among the major transformation options in Scenario 1...

The original major transformations all involved infusing your species with some sort of otherworldly aspect. Materium, however, is this-worldly, which is probably why it isn't seen as thematically fitting. The infused-with angle also doesn't mesh with "bits and pieces of machine" idea very well - they'd have to become constructs in their entirety, and while that might be thematically doable it would also be likely to have ramifications beyond unit combat stats.

The other thing that was pointed out is that the major transformations are part of tomes that cover the entire theme more broadly. Goldtouched would have worked for that as part of the Golden Realm tome, but there isn't any "Tome of the Clockwork Monstrosity", and conceptually a tome like that would clash with the established Dreadnaught motifs, which are an important part of AoW's identity.

I'd also disagree with the basic assertion that Materium must have a major transformation just because all of the others do. It's fine if the devs find a fitting theme for one, but forced symmetry is bad design.

 

[Thiend]

Sotha Sil is a questionably sane archmage with the stolen power of a god running through him, who took his inspiration from an even more questionably sane, self-deleting species of metaphysical steampunk engineers. It might work as a leader (Godir) concept but an entire species of Sotha Sils would be a bit much.


Now, leaving aside the likelihood that Goldtouched was a major transformation at some point during development since it comes up among the major transformation options in Scenario 1...

The original major transformations all involved infusing your species with some sort of otherworldly aspect. Materium, however, is this-worldly, which is probably why it isn't seen as thematically fitting. The infused-with angle also doesn't mesh with "bits and pieces of machine" idea very well - they'd have to become constructs in their entirety, and while that might be thematically doable it would also be likely to have ramifications beyond unit combat stats.

The other thing that was pointed out is that the major transformations are part of tomes that cover the entire theme more broadly. Goldtouched would have worked for that as part of the Golden Realm tome, but there isn't any "Tome of the Clockwork Monstrosity", and conceptually a tome like that would clash with the established Dreadnaught motifs, which are an important part of AoW's identity.

I'd also disagree with the basic assertion that Materium must have a major transformation just because all of the others do. It's fine if the devs find a fitting theme for one, but forced symmetry is bad design.

Personally, I'd like to see some restrictions on minor transformations so they stop being just another thing you grab and start being a choice. As it stands now, though, materium not having a major transformation is strictly stronger both because it doesn't add as many vulnerabilities and because it thus doesn't conflict with any other major transformations.

I have no real problem with materium lacking one.

 

[Blanch Warren]

wouldn't be against a soul transference transformation, but i feel like that would be a materium/shadow hybrid transformation. due to the transferenace of souls and give an alternative to the wright transformation. that said i really want a more armored focused faction, materium seems to be more focused on constructs which is all good, but i want chaos warrior armor.

Maybe you want something else, but Chaos/materium is what the empire and ashes dlc has, and industrious culture is literally armor focused.

 

[bronze Void poison]

Sotha Sil is a questionably sane archmage with the stolen power of a god running through him, who took his inspiration from an even more questionably sane, self-deleting species of metaphysical steampunk engineers. It might work as a leader (Godir) concept but an entire species of Sotha Sils would be a bit much.


Now, leaving aside the likelihood that Goldtouched was a major transformation at some point during development since it comes up among the major transformation options in Scenario 1...

The original major transformations all involved infusing your species with some sort of otherworldly aspect. Materium, however, is this-worldly, which is probably why it isn't seen as thematically fitting. The infused-with angle also doesn't mesh with "bits and pieces of machine" idea very well - they'd have to become constructs in their entirety, and while that might be thematically doable it would also be likely to have ramifications beyond unit combat stats.

The other thing that was pointed out is that the major transformations are part of tomes that cover the entire theme more broadly. Goldtouched would have worked for that as part of the Golden Realm tome, but there isn't any "Tome of the Clockwork Monstrosity", and conceptually a tome like that would clash with the established Dreadnaught motifs, which are an important part of AoW's identity.

I'd also disagree with the basic assertion that Materium must have a major transformation just because all of the others do. It's fine if the devs find a fitting theme for one, but forced symmetry is bad design.

I noticed a lack of a greater transformation, it is not strictly necessary I would like something that at least partly fits them out of personal preference

 

[Seraven]

Personally, I'd like to see some restrictions on minor transformations so they stop being just another thing you grab and start being a choice. As it stands now, though, materium not having a major transformation is strictly stronger both because it doesn't add as many vulnerabilities and because it thus doesn't conflict with any other major transformations.

I have no real problem with materium lacking one.

A way to limit minor transformation could be to place each of them on a 'part' of your species and prevent to have two on the same part.

For part you could have : Body, legs, arms etc ...

As an example, Reveler's Heart change the legs so it can't be used with naga form because they both affect the same part.
Steel skin and leafskin would be the same.

So you can mix several minor transformation but not indefinitelly.
And it could prevent some visual bug too.

 

[seperamos]

Personally, I'd like to see some restrictions on minor transformations so they stop being just another thing you grab and start being a choice. As it stands now, though, materium not having a major transformation is strictly stronger both because it doesn't add as many vulnerabilities and because it thus doesn't conflict with any other major transformations.

I have no real problem with materium lacking one.

Players are going to continue to ask why materium doesnt have a major transformation. No affinity should be objectively stronger than another. I can see materium being weak to astral/shadow or nature in this hypothetical transformation that I believe many players would like to see, BECAUSE it is an additional tool that can be useful to buff against the right opponent.

Concerning minor transformations, there should logically be no more than the number of affinities in game for each race to have, which is 6, or 5 if discounting materium. Materium, order, chaos, shadow, astral, nature. The ingame explanation for this could be that the more power imbued into a race, the more risk it has of "burning out" and become some type of astral monstrosity or lost wizards

6, or 5, minor transformations at most is reasonable. This allows for a rainbow build, if it is still allowed, at the cost of slower research by delving into affinities other than your main affinity by culture.

Minor transformations that are gained with your main affinity mastery should be faster and more cost effective to obtain compared to researching outside of your main path. Depending on affinity it could be 2 or 3.

 

[Goblin-Cookie]

to me it is more a mastery over the practical so to me the base cyborg premise of replacing our weakness makes sense but not the implementation.

they would be make something different closer wightborn in the whole wanting to cheat human limitations so to speak but going from a different direction wightborn is about cheating death here about frailties more fitting to materium doctrine.

I would also take a materium hybrid affinity transformation not unlike the dragon one so long as it was interesting

Materium is really the shaping of non-living matter through mana, which is opposed to said matter (knife to the sculptor). All the existing Materium transformations involve adding non-living, or at least non-organic elements to a people's organs, so a Materium major transformation, that is unavoidably a cyborg, a body with inorganic components added to the point it is no longer fundamentally similar to what it was before.

I feel that it is Nature that represents living matter and that Nature is a dialectical product of the mixing of Astral and Materium, these being the primeval forces of the Age of Wonders universe. So Materium+Astral = Nature.

Wightborn however is Shadow, Shadow is taxidermy/mummification/fossilisation/memorial making; parasitic on Nature. Shadow is the form of life surviving the end of living, so it is not really similar to an assembly cyborg at all. It is however VERY similar to the Paragon, which are strongly a Shadow thing, as they tried to preserve their living forms at all costs and end up doing so beyond their deaths.

Materium can go in 2 or 3 directions in this hypothetical major transformation: Cyborg/construct, elemental, precious metal or stones. It has already been stated that this was not their original intent...

However, I believe a major transformation for materium would be sellable and popular to aow4 players. I'd like to see this direction polled for proof to justify the effort required.

The different directions you describe are basically an illusion, as all the transformations will involve adding non-living elements to a living form, resulting in some form of cyborg. The differences you describe are basically merely aesthetic, they are not really differences in the body horror that is involved.

Assembly-esk transformation in AoW4 is an interesting concept imo, "For the Machine is immoral" and all that stuff. Plus we already have tome of Construct with Linked Mind that is a step in this particular direction already.

Mix of Mechanicus/Assembly + Sotha Sil aesthetics would be really cool.

The problem seems to be precisely that the Assembly are so Materium that to add a major transformation for Materium is basically just to create the Assembly all over again, in Age of Wonders IV.

Denial of the difference between living and non-living matter seems built in not only to the Assembly, but also the existing Materium transformations, where we just add metal and rock to people's bodies as though that was not a big deal.

 

[seperamos]

I remember reading something in greek mythology about the ages of the men of gold, silver, and bronze, bronze being closer to the current age and being of lesser quality. Materium has gold and steel, perhaps there could be silver and bronze transformations in the future?

Materium is really the shaping of non-living matter through mana, which is opposed to said matter (knife to the sculptor). All the existing Materium transformations involve adding non-living, or at least non-organic elements to a people's organs, so a Materium major transformation, that is unavoidably a cyborg, a body with inorganic components added to the point it is no longer fundamentally similar to what it was before.

I feel that it is Nature that represents living matter and that Nature is a dialectical product of the mixing of Astral and Materium, these being the primeval forces of the Age of Wonder 4.

Denial of the difference between living and non-living matter seems built in not only to the Assembly, but also the existing Materium transformations, where we just add metal and rock to people's bodies as though that was not a big deal.

This is too deep of an insight for me to challenge over a 4x game, but I will say diamond, better stone, or precious metal transformations would be interesting to see. They do fit the current theme of minor transformations in materium tomes more so than cyborgs, and the change seems to be skin deep rather than body horror. These would also benefit from tome of the construct thematically. It would be more like turning your race into moving statues animated by magic or their souls rather than turning them machines.

 

[DragonZee]

A way to limit minor transformation could be to place each of them on a 'part' of your species and prevent to have two on the same part.

It's an optional thing so I don't see a reason to limit it in any way. It's a players choice, plus some transformations are entirely passable, for example terrain based ones like Forestwalk, when there are no forests etc.

 

[bronze Void poison]

Materium is really the shaping of non-living matter through mana, which is opposed to said matter (knife to the sculptor). All the existing Materium transformations involve adding non-living, or at least non-organic elements to a people's organs, so a Materium major transformation, that is unavoidably a cyborg, a body with inorganic components added to the point it is no longer fundamentally similar to what it was before.

I feel that it is Nature that represents living matter and that Nature is a dialectical product of the mixing of Astral and Materium, these being the primeval forces of the Age of Wonders universe. So Materium+Astral = Nature.

Wightborn however is Shadow, Shadow is taxidermy/mummification/fossilisation/memorial making; parasitic on Nature. Shadow is the form of life surviving the end of living, so it is not really similar to an assembly cyborg at all. It is however VERY similar to the Paragon, which are strongly a Shadow thing, as they tried to preserve their living forms at all costs and end up doing so beyond their deaths.



The different directions you describe are basically an illusion, as all the transformations will involve adding non-living elements to a living form, resulting in some form of cyborg. The differences you describe are basically merely aesthetic, they are not really differences in the body horror that is involved.



The problem seems to be precisely that the Assembly are so Materium that to add a major transformation for Materium is basically just to create the Assembly all over again, in Age of Wonders IV.

Denial of the difference between living and non-living matter seems built in not only to the Assembly, but also the existing Materium transformations, where we just add metal and rock to people's bodies as though that was not a big deal.

we are all ears on if you can solve this conundrum then?

 

[Kitschy]

Yeah, so I misunderstood you a bit - I thought you would like a straight on Assembly faction in the game - so robots/androids or even some alien technology stuff etc. Kinda like what HoMM III wanted with Forge which was lore correct, but controversial with how the overall themes or feel of the game was.

I guess they could go with some afromentioned ideas for a Culture or sth but personally it's not something a particulary crave in the game. I think marriage of technology and magic is already represented in the game well enough with Reavers and a few themathic Tomes, do we really need more? At the end of the day it comes down to individual players tastes (some would like x stuff more etc), like with the whole Asian/Samurai thing discussion. So far Triumph didn't disappoint me with their ideas so I trust them.

Personally for Materium in particular I would look for different ideas. We might still get some more Dark/Materium Tomes (like Severing), this opens up ways for some interesting ideas for Transformations like the Forgotten faction from Planetfall (evil hunted idols etc).

There is definitely bias on my part there or I should say personal preference. Also yeah I agree it is more of a dual affinity thing be it Shadow/Materium or Order/Materium.

Speaking about Order/Materium in particular about Tome of Construct or precisely about Linked Minds minor transformation that gives your race units ... emm ... lets just say "low range Wi-Fi connection" with other constructs. I wouldn't mind a high tier tome of this kind with a major transformation that gives your units a Construct tag same as Angelize gives Celestial or Wightborn - Undead tag and so on.

So when you ask "do we need more", my answer would be yes. ;P

 

[Legemeton]

stance of "Flesh is weak, but there is strength and certainty in steel. For the Machine is immoral.", it is a good enough explanation of why a materium inclined culture might go in that direction

There are some issues with the whole "flesh" theme. Notably, it would put Materium in the middle of the "Nature vs Shadow" conflict, since both are heavily invested in opposite approaches regarding this theme (nurture vs decay, rebirth vs undeath). Reshaping something tough (like rock or metal) fits Materium's focus on the tangible and concrete better than reshaping flesh. It also makes for a better contrast to Materium's opposing affinity, Astral, which focus on the intangible and abstract, such as energy (lightning, mana) and the ethereal (the majority of Astral's summons).

Ultimately, the contrast between Materium and Astral is akin to "mass vs energy", and both affinities are relatively detached from biological and psychological concerns compared to the other four affinities. These two are basically the exact sciences of AoW4, and it's probably better to leave the biological aspect (a.k.a. "flesh") to the Nature and Shadow affinities.

Also yeah I agree it is more of a dual affinity thing be it Shadow/Materium or Order/Materium.

I also agree with that.

 

[Goblin-Cookie]

I remember reading something in greek mythology about the ages of the men of gold, silver, and bronze, bronze being closer to the current age and being of lesser quality. Materium has gold and steel, perhaps there could be silver and bronze transformations in the future?

This is too deep of an insight for me to challenge over a 4x game, but I will say diamond, better stone, or precious metal transformations would be interesting to see. They do fit the current theme of minor transformations in materium tomes more so than cyborgs, and the change seems to be skin deep rather than body horror. These would also benefit from tome of the construct thematically. It would be more like turning your race into moving statues animated by magic or their souls rather than turning them machines.

Diamond is probably Shadow rather than Materium, same with stuff like oil or coal. All types of metals seem to be Materium in the game.
Moving statues mobilised by magic is kind of a mix of Astral and Materium, rather than a Materium thing. It isn't where Materium is going at all, since obviously magical stuff is not what it is interested in.

Most in-game transformations are body horror, it is just some are more horrifying than others. It is pretty horrifying to wake up one moment and realise that bits of you have been replaced with stone or metal, this is very much in the game at the moment.

we are all ears on if you can solve this conundrum then?

Well, the devs don't want to implement the idea at all.

A setup where people get turned into crystalline structures seems like the way to go. We haven't really done crystals, so it isn't clashing with the metal and rock transformations already in the game.

Something like this, the Materium major transformation turns a being into something along the lines of a faceted crystal mirror, so it still has the basic shape it had before but it appears broken up into facets, like a cut gem.

While in essence you are still making someone a cyborg, you are doing so in an elegant way that doesn't scream Planetfall.

Ultimately, the contrast between Materium and Astral is akin to "mass vs energy", and both affinities are relatively detached from biological and psychological concerns compared to the other four affinities. These two are basically the exact sciences of AoW4, and it's probably better to leave the biological aspect (a.k.a. "flesh") to the Nature and Shadow affinities.

I'm fairly sure Astral is more Mind/Energy than Energy in the physical sense, though it does seem to be connected because I suppose in real-life stuff like electricity actually is connected to the mind.

 

[DragonZee]

As far as transformations go there's a game called Wildermyth were your characters can acquaire some themathic "forms" through quests. Maybe this concept can be an inspiration?