Amazon flash arrows (blind) are incredibly OP

[durbal]

Blind is strong enough, but an AOE blind with 5 hex range (effectively making it 6 hexes) on a basic unit is ridiculous. They can blind you while you're behind cover and then proceed to shoot over the cover. Overwatch doesn't even work since they can walk up to the edge of overwatch and launch the blind arrows, and the blind knocks the unit out of overwatch.

The only real option is melee, and for some factions that's just not an option especially at the start of the game when the Amazon core units are available.

The concept is cool, but it's just incredibly overpowered for a single basic unit to essentially be able to knock multiple other units out of the fight for two turns, especially since it totally counters heroes, elites, etc. for a good portion if not all of the game. And they aren't even one use per battle, so they can just chain-blind you since the cooldown lasts as long the effect!

I'm not sure what to do with them...maybe lower the duration to 1 turn?

For those not familiar, here's the ability:

This is on a 40-energy tier I core unit...ummmm...

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

blind is strong but its not knocking anyone out of the fight.

Huntresses would be god awful if they couldnt flash from outside overwatch. They dont get overwatch themselves and their range is short. Amazon AI is basically suicidal in its efforts to flash arrow things....

Don't cluster up and try to get some resists to lower your odds on being blinded. Cover doesnt do anything against huntresses anyway so there's no reason to group up behind it. Even maintaining cover you ought to be able to position such that they cant hit more than 1 unit - or if they can hit two, they should have to get into overwatch range.

Keep your happiness up. Consider using The Warmonger doctrine. Crits ignore accuracy penalties...

 

[Ovari]

Sounds like you are relying on repeating range shots too much. Try using melee overwatch vs. them (here'show it works: you strike in melee 1/2 times during your turn, then you end turn and your units reset action. Suddenly you have melee overwatch that staggers and damages them). Or grenades. Or mechs. Or tactical ops (shredder bomb deletes them). Just little caution and you'll be fine.

 

[durbal]

Sounds like you are relying on repeating range shots too much. Try using melee overwatch vs. them (here'show it works: you strike in melee 1/2 times during your turn, then you end turn and your units reset action. Suddenly you have melee overwatch that staggers and damages them). Or grenades. Or mechs. Or tactical ops (shredder bomb deletes them). Just little caution and you'll be fine.

I don't have any problems with my tactics, and obviously when I start using tactical operations vs. them then it becomes easier. But that's the same for every unit. Obviously melee works pretty well vs. them...I even said so in my post. The issue is that some factions and specializations don't have the ability to use melee vs them especially early game. They also can take way more than their own value out of a fight very reliably due to the AOE and the fact that they're a tier 1 unit able to chain debuff tier I and II units worth way more, such as many shooty skirmishers. Basically, they are way more effective than their actual cost and that's why they're overpowered.

They can even use the ability to break melee overwatch since it staggers too.

blind is strong but its not knocking anyone out of the fight.

-40% chance to hit and no ability to use overwatch? Core Vanguard troopers and Syndicate Indentured are knocked out of the fight. Dvar struggle too, although their core specialists and scouts can at least do something rather than just run away. You're not going to be beating them during an even matchup when you're pretty much globally at -40% hit chance on every unit and often on heroes too.

The main issue is that they're such an insane hard counter to many units and that the rest of their kit (ignore cover) means when you're hit by blind you just need to run away because that's all you really can do if you're not melee or don't have explosives.

Just their ability to dictate how the enemy is forced to position due to the AOE is part of their huge value too. Support units (healers, buffers, etc.) often need to be close by and they can't be due to the AOE.

Consider this: mods and abilities which remove debuffs are often one use per battle. Tactical ops that remove debuffs often take 2+ tac points and 40+ energy per use. And that's just to remove one blind...which will be off cooldown for them in 1 turn. Having to commit those kinds of resources into countering a basic unit is what makes them so over the top.

And let's not even get into the fact that they also stagger.

Let's put it this way: if there was a tier 1 unit mod that gave a unit a range 5 (essentially 6 with Huntresses due to their range bonuys) AOE 2-turn blind that also staggers on a 2-turn cooldown it would be OP. This isn't even a unit mod...

 

[Draxynnic]

Amazons are built around having to close with an opponent, which likely has Overwatch (and it's harder for Amazons to get Overwatch than any other faction) for close-range but non-melee attacks. Flash Arrow is basically what allows them to close without being shredded.

Some counters include:

*Using operations and abilities that remove debuffs. Yes, such abilities have costs associated with them, but it generally doesn't take much in the way of focus fire to kill Huntresses after they've thrown their blind.

*Charging into melee. Dvar, Kir'ko, and Assembly all have tier 1 melee options.

*Area attacks. Vanguard Troopers have their grenades, while Frenzied have their Battle Vomit. Doesn't matter if you're blind if you're bombarding an area (this, and the previous tactic, also works against Kir'ko Hidden).

Syndicate probably have the worst time, since they don't really have access to the second or third options until tier 2. Using Runners to bola the Huntresses to make sure you get the opening salvo is one possible strategy, albeit a risky one. Syndicate do, however, have pretty good access to clears - Overseers can remove Blind (from three hexes away), and Cleansing Pulse is cheap and can open up a lot of firepower.

Let's put it this way: if there was a tier 1 unit mod that gave a unit a range 5 (essentially 6 with Huntresses due to their range bonuys) AOE 2-turn blind that also staggers on a 2-turn cooldown it would be OP. This isn't even a unit mod...

You're going to hate Flash Payload...

 

[Ethorin]

... ... ...playing Syndicate 500 point militia against a marauder stack with two huntresses I didn't actually have a big problem even after I let all my units get blinded, sure, it drops the accuracy a bunch but there's a TON of doctrines to get your units up past 200+ morale all the time and then you just fish for crits and the odd hit, Huntresses are low damage even for Tier 1 to boot so that cover ignoring quality is pretty essential, especially given their low range.

 

[durbal]

You're going to hate Flash Payload...

Hate it as in not really bother with it you mean? It’s not even close to as good since it effectively has 2 less range, less strength, and is on a unit that basically does no damage on its own so it can’t reliably be spammed (3+ of them is NOT an effective army conp). Just further demonstrates why flash arrows are OP.

 

[durbal]

... ... ...playing Syndicate 500 point militia against a marauder stack with two huntresses I didn't actually have a big problem even after I let all my units get blinded, sure, it drops the accuracy a bunch but there's a TON of doctrines to get your units up past 200+ morale all the time and then you just fish for crits and the odd hit, Huntresses are low damage even for Tier 1 to boot so that cover ignoring quality is pretty essential, especially given their low range.

Huntresses do more damage than almost all the tier 1.core in the game.

And 200 morale is what? 10% crit chance? Standing there blinded and hoping a 10% extra hit chance is not a real strategy, especially since — and I need to keep repeating this — in an even matchup you’d have to give them the same benefits. I’m not arguing that they’re unbeatable and this isn’t some ragequit right to the forums. It’s being posted after 60+ hours and lots of early game testing that made me realize how over the top the flash arrow ability is. I actually want to play with Amazons but flash arrow spam trivializes the battles and they’re a core unit...

 

[Ethorin]

...they do 7 base damage and every other t1 core with a repeating ranged attack does 8...

 

[TheGrinningMan]

My earliest war in my Vanguard game was against an Amazon, and I never much worried about morale or crit fishing. (I gave all my grunts Tenets of Tranquility for Enlightened and stagger resist when I had the cosmite for it and called it a day.) Mostly, I kept my troopers spread out, and pinged the huntresses with OWLs. Even blinded, the troopers got good-enough accuracy between OWL assistance and the amount of dakka I was throwing at them. If they hit one of my heroes, I just spent a few energy on whatever Vanguard or Celestian debuff-cleanser seemed appropriate and kept blasting the bloody harridans with impunity.

All this is Vanguard specific, though; can't offer any advice for other factions.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I also opened major battles with the Amazons with a Soulburn strategic op. Which gave my Enlightened troopers, IIRC, +20% accuracy; that's probably why the blinded wasn't such a pain. We don't need eyes to see, when the sins of the impure burn so bright!

EDIT 2: Blinded is -40% to accuracy. Targeted from an OWL gives you +35%, and Soulburn, another +20% to your enlightened unit. So a blind, enlightened unit targeting an enemy with both of these gets a net +15% chance to hit! Soulburn can be handed out by the Soulfire and Declaration of Truth strategic operations, the Final Revelation Doomsday operation, the Spirit Flash tactical op, an enemy hitting a Celestian unit with the Shield of Remorse mod, the attacks of a Star Guide or an Ascended Teacher, or a hero with the Radiant Force primary,

 

[durbal]

...they do 7 base damage and every other t1 core with a repeating ranged attack does 8...

All T1 core repeating ranged attacks do 9. In terms of strict numbers for ranged attacks (which in reality doesn't represent the situation since Huntress bows ignore enemy cover and unit penalties), Huntresses do the same as Vanguard and Syndicate and more than Dvar, Assembly, and Kirko (although the latter two are admittedly more for melee).

 

[Urza1234]

Personally I have having to rely on flash arrow so much.

 

[durbal]

Personally I have having to rely on flash arrow so much.

Exactly. It trivializes all other stuff because of how good it is...

 

[Draxynnic]

Hate it as in not really bother with it you mean? It’s not even close to as good since it effectively has 2 less range, less strength, and is on a unit that basically does no damage on its own so it can’t reliably be spammed (3+ of them is NOT an effective army conp). Just further demonstrates why flash arrows are OP.

You're assuming it's on Foremen, right? Sure, you don't want too many of them in a typical army, but they have no cooldown at all on their blind attempts.

Early-game, you can also put it on Prospectors. Climbing up the tech tree, you can also put it on Ramjets, Excavator Tanks, and scariest of all, Rocket Artillery. It can also be spread to units of other races - if a Dvar player absorbs Vanguard, for instance, they can have flash grenades on Troopers, flash missiles on Gunships, and flash missiles on Walkers. Similar observations apply to the Paragon.

By contrast, later in the game, Amazons still require Huntresses for their blinding. It's pretty much what keeps them viable in the mid to late game, in fact - range 7 units with overwatch can stay relevant pretty much throughout the game, but Huntresses tend to start getting replaced by tier 2 units that do have range 7 and overwatch when practical. Heck, even in the early game, I've found myself simply spamming Shrikes instead of producing more Huntresses. Flash Arrow can be pretty potent in the early game, but it needs to be: without a pretty potent secondary ability, the Huntress would be objectively inferior to the tier 1s of other races. Flash Payload can remain relevant throughout the game without a player needing to have units that are brought specifically for the blinds and which would be obsolete without them.

And like people have said, there are mods and other abilities you can get to mitigate the effect if you're fighting them.

 

[durbal]

You're assuming it's on Foremen, right? Sure, you don't want too many of them in a typical army, but they have no cooldown at all on their blind attempts.

Early-game, you can also put it on Prospectors. Climbing up the tech tree, you can also put it on Ramjets, Excavator Tanks, and scariest of all, Rocket Artillery. It can also be spread to units of other races - if a Dvar player absorbs Vanguard, for instance, they can have flash grenades on Troopers, flash missiles on Gunships, and flash missiles on Walkers. Similar observations apply to the Paragon.

By contrast, later in the game, Amazons still require Huntresses for their blinding. It's pretty much what keeps them viable in the mid to late game, in fact - range 7 units with overwatch can stay relevant pretty much throughout the game, but Huntresses tend to start getting replaced by tier 2 units that do have range 7 and overwatch when practical. Heck, even in the early game, I've found myself simply spamming Shrikes instead of producing more Huntresses. Flash Arrow can be pretty potent in the early game, but it needs to be: without a pretty potent secondary ability, the Huntress would be objectively inferior to the tier 1s of other races. Flash Payload can remain relevant throughout the game without a player needing to have units that are brought specifically for the blinds and which would be obsolete without them.

And like people have said, there are mods and other abilities you can get to mitigate the effect if you're fighting them.

Flash payload is almost irrelevant by the time you get it. Its strength is low enough that the innate resistances of tier II/III units plus the army-wide status resists given by heroes are enough to make it nearly worthless, let alone against anything with defense mods.

Putting it on tier III/IV units is a waste. Its chance to blind anything other than tier I and naked tier II is so low that if you're up against those kinds of units and you have stuff like Rocket Artillery then you've already won anyway.

Huntresses stay relevant because they're core and are cheap. And they remain able to counter tier I/II units (especially core units) throughout the game.

 

[Draxynnic]

It's a tier 2 research. You can get it pretty early on. And even if the chance is low, if most of your army has it, some on repeating attacks, it's going to trigger occasionally. As opposed to bringing an otherwise pretty weak unit purely for the blind chance.

And bringing things that boost resistance against the blind/stagger goes both ways: you can defend against Flash Arrow the same way, and unlike a unit modded with Flash Payload, a Huntress that uses a Flash Arrow that fails has wasted its turn. Other races also have the opportunity to bring some pretty potent disables and/or projectile hate along. Have you met the terror that is Kir'ko Hidden with Mantra of Command yet?

Honestly, I get where you're coming from: I've had times when I've been caught by surprise by an Amazon attack and the primary goal for the garrison they first hit was to kill the Huntresses so I didn't have to worry about Flash Arrow in later battles. However, there are countermeasures, and the question has to be considered: how useful would Huntresses be without Flash Arrow? I know that in my Amazon games, I've found Shrikes to be generally more useful in situations where I need a cheap unit that can be produced without much infrastructure.