• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Zardnaar

Field Marshal
62 Badges
Oct 8, 2009
5.445
629
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
Briefly longtime Paradox fan, can't claim to be an original one but I started with Hearts of Iron 2.

On the forums lately there seem to have been a few melt downs and banning around various things Paradox has done. This is a polite attempt to give you a sanitized version of what people are saying on Discord and Teamspeak from players going back to around EUIII in most cases along with a few new players (say since CK II).

Put simply the reason people are upset with you is various reasons but the TLDR version is you are ruining your own games. Most of my 100 odd Pdox steam friends play various Paradox games and these are patterns that are turning up across all of the regardless if its CK II, EUIV, or Stellaris. The following reasons are why.

1. Releasing buggy bare boned games. Paradox games have always been a bit of a buggy hot mess but the fans kind of understand. That and 10 years ago social media wasn't such a thing. Paradox was a small indie developer making niche games that were kind of unique. But now it seems that they are holding back features that should have been in the base game IMHO. On release CKII, EUIV, and Stellaris were lacking putting it mildly. Sword of Islam for example should have been in the base game. I would make the same argument for Utopia with Stellaris (which was very bland on release), while EUIV got better fast. Of course it doesn't help that now we have alot of DLC which leads to part 2.

2. To much DLC (and poor quality DLC)

It seems now that Paradox is more or less trying to milk the fan base. Note I am a fan of DLC up to a point but there is such a thing as to much and some of these games now have an excess of 12+ DLCs. I really liked EUIII and it had 4 expansions and I think that is about the right number, perhaps no more than 6 DLCs. This is also not helped by the fact that the DLC is becoming increasingly niche and hit or miss. The last great DLC in EUIV for example was The Art of War IMHO and that was 3+ years ago IIRC. I get it that P'dox has to make money but EUIV in particular has basically been ruined with numerous MP groups collapsing and fatigue setting in. Rather than by more DLC people just stopped playing and moved on to Stellaris or other non Paradox games. I'm sure you may have some sales figures that may argue otherwise but that can also be a short term fix as it only takes one or 2 bad decisions to have forums and social media up in arms. When you like more than 2 Paradox titles you have to start making decisions over what ones to support. For example own HoI4, have not played it or bought a single DLC for it. Time IRL is the factor not the depth of a wallet. The more stuff you add the more complex the game becomes and in some cases we are more or less paying money for DLC that adds a new button.

3. Game altering/wrecking DLCs/updates.

The state of EUIV, Stellaris and CKII is very different from release and since a lot of players don't have all the DLC this makes MP games very lopsided as often only few players know how to play. Even worse is if you don't keep up with all the DLC and then return to a game the changes may be so severe you are almost playing a new game. Paradox games are also complex enough that learning a heap of new mechanics in say CKII, Common Sense+ EUIV or 2.2 Stellaris takes time. That is time a lot of casual players don't have so some of my older steam friend who liked EUIII or early EUIV/CKII no longer know how to play the games. Rather than learn they just generally go and play something else. The hard core may buy everything, the casuals IDK. I'm hardcore I suppose but struggle with CKII because once EUIV landed I played that instead but now EUIV is basically ruined (as in not fun to play or keep up with) I don't know how to play CKII that well and the map expansions seem to slow everything down and move the game further away from what I liked on release through to around the Old Gods. This is also assuming everything actually works. Stellaris 2.2 is a hot mess right now and it took me several weeks to relearn enough but some players just quit. Of greater concern is the number of bugs in the game that either slow things down, down work, or make the game freeze and you can't even ctrl alt delete it and shut the program down I have to reset the computer. In effect you took something we may have liked and then ruined it (Common Sense+, Rajas of India+, Megacorps+) or the game barely functions especially late game (Stellaris).


So that is basically it or at least the main reasons. There is just to much, quality is going down across all of your titles (HoI4 IDK) and even Stellaris that had very good DLC has released a bit of a turkey that has broken the game and/or does not play nice with previous DLCs you sold us (robot empires now sucking, the L-Sector/distant stars rework sucking/getting nerfed etc). Paradox tends to have some loyal fanatical fans but there are limits. Generally none of us wants to see Paradox turn into the next EA/Activision/Bethesda but that is where things seem to be heading and I am sure short term you are fine but yeah there is some genuine anger/frustration/resignation towards your games from long time fans. That residual good will is being burnt up, for me its more apathy than rage YMMV. I am vaguely interested in the new Rome game but it seems the advice would be wait until the 1st DLC is on sale along with the base game.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
I think the big flaw with stellaris was it was a new IP and they rerally didnt know what to do with it, like the game had a very decent early and late game but a bare bones mid game, the current version is a huge improvment but half of the mechanics feel completely different from launch, even if theyre improvements (IMO they are) its jarring and messes with the learning curve where every 5 or so months you ave to effectively relearn an aspect of the game
 
I disagree with point 1.). I was satisfied with EU IV, CK2, and Stellaris on release. Probably got a good 20-50 hrs before the first DLC, which compared to many other titles, is respectable. These games try to model very complex societies and conflicts. From a practical standpoint, I think it makes absolute sense that they start from a place of "What is the minimum we would need to create the feel of this era?" It's arguable that sword of Islam should have been included, but the characterization that they release "bare-bones games" is unfair IMO.

They could definitely improve bug-fixing (who couldn't?) and the pacing of DLCs. EU IV seemed like too much too fast for me. But maybe that's because I was distracted too much by CK2, Stellaris, and HOI IV to keep up with EU IV.
 
I disagree with point 1.). I was satisfied with EU IV, CK2, and Stellaris on release. Probably got a good 20-50 hrs before the first DLC, which compared to many other titles, is respectable. These games try to model very complex societies and conflicts. From a practical standpoint, I think it makes absolute sense that they start from a place of "What is the minimum we would need to create the feel of this era?" It's arguable that sword of Islam should have been included, but the characterization that they release "bare-bones games" is unfair IMO.

They could definitely improve bug-fixing (who couldn't?) and the pacing of DLCs. EU IV seemed like too much too fast for me. But maybe that's because I was distracted too much by CK2, Stellaris, and HOI IV to keep up with EU IV.

I put more hours into but in hindsight I thought it was bland on release. Playing as Islam in CK2 should be in the base game.

Stellaris was the worst of the 3 imho.
 
I'm unsure what's happened to Paradox over the last 12 months but I do agree with sentiments that there has been a reduction in quality.

Until Dharma, i'd bought every EU4, Stellaris and Ck2 expansion & I do share many of the above concerns.

EU4, which was once Paradox's flagship product has now become a shadow of it's former self - it seems the minimal new game play options we're presented with are uninteresting (example: rail roading nations via mission trees), and uninspired (example: minimal government reform choices). EU4 DLC content seems to be a money grab and while this game once inspired huge trust that i'd pre-order expansions, since Rule Brittania, i'm now waiting to see for content reviews before I buy.

Stellaris - Now Paradox's premier game, the expansions have been extremely good & while they have been significant changes to the gameplay at launch, overall I think these are more for the better, than worse. That said, MegaCorp's release was rushed and needed 2-3 months more QA. Whoever made the decision to rush that expansion out made a wrong decision & as a result, I'd be very surprised if their next expansion doesn't suffer during pre-order as players wait to see post launch quality before buying.

CK2 - CK2 was my least favourite Paradox game, but I have to give the CK2 team credit where credit is due, this game is now my favourite title. Their most recent expansion has been by far the cleanest DLC of all 3 of the above games, both minimal game breaking post live QA issues & content that has been well received which demonstrates the team listens to what their playerbase wants and delivers on it.
 
I put more hours into but in hindsight I thought it was bland on release. Playing as Islam in CK2 should be in the base game.

Stellaris was the worst of the 3 imho.

It was technically possible, if I understand correctly. There was a way to go Islamic. It was bland/mostly devoid of features, but you could do it. After DLC that game over'd you.

In fact this is a longstanding issue in EU 4, less so in the other titles. Pdox patches something out of the game, then brings it back in a different form (and typically stronger!) in DLC. Monarch points for buildings --> development, horde nerfs --> razing implementation, exploration range nerf --> steal/buy maps, espionage rework --> counter espionage was DLC at first are among examples. Some of these eventually became free later - long after relevant DLCs sold.

The worst part is that in all pdox titles I've played (CK2, EU 4, HOI 4) proven bugs are routinely ignored in favor of removing esoteric exploits and adding yet more layers of DLC. There is a wide array of x=not x bugs. CK2 is the least bad, HOI 4 and EU 4 are objectively terrible with them and have game-altering consequences if you take UI on faith. HOI 4 is the biggest problem right now, as its core mechanics don't work but devs ignored this and actively made QoL for unit control worse + admitted it was intentional in bug reports (penalty for right-clicking to move units, insistence on using front lines).

  • If I ask a question like "under what circumstances can an ally declare war on you while still allied" in CK 2, most players can't answer correctly.
  • If I ask a question like "where are the troops allowed to move in EU 4", in some cases there isn't a single person alive that can possibly answer accurately w/o guessing. I've proven this outright on those forums.
  • If I ask "who will get control of this territory when x troops move into it" in HOI 4, only the most helpful forum code divers can answer the question accurately...most of the time. Other times, even they can't explain some interactions.

But despite multiple problems like these, DLC is consistently prioritized over them. There are proven, well-documented, objective UI bugs from patch 1.13beta in EU 4 right now. Despite > 5 bug reports from multiple people, these are still in the game despite over half of the game's DLC being released *after* they were identified. That's the state of Pdox patch practices right now.

The dislikes are unfair to OP. The message sent by these practices is clear and it is not favorable to consumers.
 
This would probably been more appropriate in the EU or CK forum, as those seem to be the games you are mostly talking about. We really don't know the reasons Pdx does what it does, one reason is because they never talk about it, but how it appears to gamers is what matters because of this. I tend to believer they are trying to improve the games.
 
I put more hours into but in hindsight I thought it was bland on release. Playing as Islam in CK2 should be in the base game.

Stellaris was the worst of the 3 imho.
Of course the release versions look bland in hindsight when you can compare them to what the games are now. I liked both EU4 and Stellaris on release and thought they were worth the money I paid for them. I did not get CK2 until after the first DLC was out, but I have barely ever played Muslims, so I doubt it was much worse at release.
 
I'm not a dedicated paradox fan but I do play quite a bit of CK2 and Stellaris.

I personally think the current DLC policy can be totally fine as long as two criteria are met:

1. A new base game has the depth, presentation and potential to make it worth playing and investing further.

As such, not being able to play muslims in base CK2 isn't a problem to me as long as playing a Christian feudal is done properly.

2. DLC is integrated into the base game eventually.

So instead of lowering the cost of the base game over time, you just include more DLC with the base game for the same price. The DLC content would just become part of the base game. This also makes it easier to make new alterations to features from older DLC and makes MP easier.

I think one of the reasons that people are lukewarm for Imperator Rome is that it looks like a base game from 5-10 years ago and it seems like the same essential experience that other paradox games are already delivering. I hope that when CK3 gets developed it looks and feels like a new generation, with a new engine that makes features possible that could've never been included in CK2. Stellaris shows that paradox has the resources to make it happen.
 
Imperator Rome is that it looks like a base game from 5-10 years ago and it seems like the same essential experience that other paradox games are already delivering.

I love the period, so I've had a hard time articulating exactly why I'm not entirely jazzed about the release I had been waiting for for the last 10 years, but I think you got it. Master of none, jack of all trades. I think a good place to start would have been to build everything around a unique political simulation mechanic. Of course, I'm just being an armchair game designer, that's much easier said than done.
 
Nah, there is no such thing as too much DLC. It would be like saying there are too many kinds of biscuits in your mall. Just buy those you like, ignore the others. Variety is always a plus. Now, there are poor quality DLC, that's true, but it's not a matter of numbers.
 
2. DLC is integrated into the base game eventually.

???

No. On so many levels.

Doesn’t make sense on a business perspective. Now you can buy the game anytime, not buy the DLCs and get them for free later? Makes no sense. That why companies release “game of the year/total versions” with all DLCs after a time. It’s up to us to decide what we want to buy or not. Or we wait that the price drops/get a sale to a point where we are comfortable with.

Extra content like DLCs (as opposed to a patch that fix bugs/exploits etc) should also not be imposed on players. It should be our choice to play the version of our choice with the DLCs we want. If it’s not optional to players, then it should be a patch and free.

Changing the base game is a bad idea. Anything released on physical medium can’t be changed and changing something that was meant as an optional add-on to now be integrated would require work and has the potential of creating bugs new bugs. And that’s time (which means money) that benefits the company in no way and gives nothing new to the players.

As far as I am concerned, here is how a video game transaction works: Does the base game interest me to the point where I’m willing to pay the price I see? If not I can wait for a price drop. If I do, do I want the DLCs? If I purchase DLC in advance, it’s because I know what to expect (either they were announced or I have experience with the company previous DLCs) otherwise I can wait and see what the DLCs are and decide how much they are worth to me (and again either buy or wait for a price drop).

In the end the game companies have to put all of their work behind a game before they can sell it (early access is a different discussion) and it’s the risk they have to take. We as players can decide what level of risk we want in our game purchasing (up to and including waiting to see reviews or even lets plays).

I could probably give another few points but these are at least a few reasons why I disagree with your point.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
???
Doesn’t make sense on a business perspective. Now you can buy the game anytime, not buy the DLCs and get them for free later? Makes no sense.

Now you can delay buying the game and get it for much less later. Why does that make less sense?

???
Extra content like DLCs (as opposed to a patch that fix bugs/exploits etc) should also not be imposed on players. It should be our choice to play the version of our choice with the DLCs we want. If it’s not optional to players, then it should be a patch and free.

That may be so, but that's not what's going on at the moment. There's lots of DLC content which games function poorly without.

???

Changing the base game is a bad idea. Anything released on physical medium can’t be changed and changing something that was meant as an optional add-on to now be integrated would require work and has the potential of creating bugs new bugs. And that’s time (which means money) that benefits the company in no way and gives nothing new to the players.

Does Paradox even release anything on a physical medium now? How would it create bugs in the base game if it doesn't create bugs with the DLC? I don't see how making DLC stuff base game would be any more prone to making bugs then any other game change, and it has the advantage in that there are fewer versions of the game which could have idiosyncratic bugs/exploits.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
First off, I’d like to remind you that this is about what you think is required criteria for DLCs to be acceptable.

And those were all the reasons why I disagree. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be nice or that companies can’t do it. But I 100% disagree that it’s a requirement. I believe you are completely unreasonable to think that companies should be required to make all DLCs available for free to everyone. Nothing you have said counters this.

And as far as integrating the DLCs into the game, that would mean working in the game’s code and anytime you do this there is always risk. And since that would be done further down the line that means having to do that on versions that have already had time and effort into patching and bug fixing and so on, I’d be very surprised to know that the effort of working on changing the base code would be worth the benefit of having fewer versions. But maybe I’m wrong.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
There's currently a bundle for CK2 that costs almost 300 euros including the 17% off deal. Without the deal it would be around 350 euros. Can you at least understand how that scares off new players? This isn't about paradox giving stuff away for free, it's about asking a realistic price for a 7 years old game.

Besides, things get easier to develop if old DLC gets included in the base game. Right now if you make a feature it has to work both with and without a whole bunch of DLC. If something interacts with merchant republics, it also had to work for people without the republic DLC.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Im Canadian so I’m not sure exactly what those prices represent. Not that it matters. Companies need money. They can decide their price depending on factors they decide are more important. But make no mistake, if they changed the way they work to fit your idea the pricing would be adjusted so that in the end they make as much money. If everything was to be included, then it would not be cheaper than the bundle price that includes every DLC. Which means there would not even be the option to buy a cheaper version of the game without the DLCs. How would that be less scary to new players?

And about having to deal with multiple DLCs when releasing new content, yeah. That’s the reality of making games with DLCs. Every company that decides to do DLCs have to deal with it. And now that I think about it, I can’t remember an example of company that did this... to release DLCs and then just patch them back in everybody’s base game...

Do you have any example?
 
  • 1
Reactions: