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Originally posted by DanielMcCollum
You misunderstand a bit; when I was refering to "church" I meant the entire structure not just the Pope. It was pretty common for Kings to hire out Monks to create forgories in order to build up thier prestige.

That is true, but you did seem to suggest, with your statement, that you could bribe the Pope into forging documents for you. Now it may be possible to pass a little money into the Pope's hand in order to gain legitimacy for a title from him, but he wouldn't have had to "forge" anything for that, he could legitimize it on his own authority.

Ex: Edward II(?) had several documents forged in order to make it look as if he had a dirrect claim upon the Scottish throne while he was mediating a dispute between two rival Kings.

I understand and see no reason why Gallicanism (a bit of a misnomer in this context, but I'm still going to use it ;) ) should not play a role in the politics of the Church-and the predilection of some clerics to 'forge' documents and otherwise act extralegally in the name of nationalism-in the game.


A little before our time, but when the Church was first beginning to really exert itself during the early Dark Ages it forged and created several documents in order to increase its own authority; one of the more famous is one in which one of the Roman Emperor's is cured of some disease and, as such, claims that the heirs of Peter in Rome are stronger than the Roman government and the crown of Empire should pass to the Pope upon his death. I apologize for the story not being exact; I don't feel like tearing through my old lecture notes at the moment ;)

You are referring to the "False Decretals" specifically the forged "Donations of Constantine" (in which the Pope cures Constantine of leprosy) which is sometimes contained therein. In truth it is debatable as to who actually forged them. The earliest compilation was, I think, written in France, and was probably part of the political conflict between the Gallicanists and the Ultramontanists. In principle not all the letters and canons in the decritals are entirely forgery, some are, other parts are confused plagerisms, and some are in fact genuine. And it is likely that the whole work was an effort to bolster the rights and authority of the local bishops (as opposed to archbishops). The pope (who was usually the champion of the bishops) was at first only incidentally a benefactor of the decritals.

Certainly by the time it was used by Leo IX & Gregory VII both the decritals and the donations were believe universally to be genuine. However the rights of the Holy See supposedly defended by the decritals, and specifically the donations, were not based solely on them, but do go back to earlier traditions of Popes such as St. Leo and of Gelasius I in the fifth century.

And anyway if I remember correctly, the Donations of Constantine don't give "the heirs of Peter in Rome a stronger authority than Roman government or the crown of the Empire," the Donations only confusingly give the Pope the ceremonial regalia of the Empire.
 
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Playing as France will I be able to annex England or vice versa?
 
But I suppose a Basilus will not be called Monostrategus because of Demense, right?
 
Originally posted by CCR_of_the_Code
But I suppose a Basilus will not be called Monostrategus because of Demense, right?

Hmmmmm...the Eastern Roman Emperor having a Demesne? That is a bizarre concept to say the least :D. I suppose in the late Empire when heirs climbed the ladder from Morea to Constantinople that makes some sense though. But that is very late in the period.
 
Originally posted by John Poole
Hmmmmm...the Eastern Roman Emperor having a Demesne? That is a bizarre concept to say the least :D. I suppose in the late Empire when heirs climbed the ladder from Morea to Constantinople that makes some sense though. But that is very late in the period.

Perhaps (at least in the first two scenarios) the entire empire is considered the Emperor's demesne. That actually might solve some of the problems related to the differences between most of the European nations and the Byzantine Empire....
 
Originally posted by Marcus Valerius
Perhaps (at least in the first two scenarios) the entire empire is considered the Emperor's demesne. That actually might solve some of the problems related to the differences between most of the European nations and the Byzantine Empire....

That would probably be the only way to solve the relative differences without resorting to a completely different game engine for the Byzantine empire. And, it would allow for the development of a more decentralized feudal system latter.


On a side note, I was thinking about the communitarian nature of western feudal states, and the tendency to move towards decentralized autonomy (fought of course by the efforts of the various kings and sovereigns, who eventually won out), and how this could be modeled in the game. Suppose, as I suggested earlier that all the western provinces had fixed laws (independent of who owned them), representing the feudal customs and traditions of the land. And that the ability to change and combine them with larger states, and to do this without difficulty, was proportional to the provinces' own traditions of autonomy, or lack there of. Suppose each province in the game had a number indicating it's tendency towards autonomy. And, this number was effected by different actions and events one could do. If a province was part of a larger collection of states it would slowly develop less of an independent identity. Or, conversely if the sovereign kept granting it to feudal underlings every time it came into his power, (for support, and for the short term benefits of feudal stability versus the long term benefits of nationalism and absolutist government), the province would develop more autonomously. In such a case most if not all the Byzantine provinces would have a very low autonomy determinant.

It's just an idea of course, and I'm not sure it would be the BEST way to model the structure of the society. Or for that matter if it's even possible this late in development.


(edit: added link)
 
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Originally posted by Marcus Valerius
Perhaps (at least in the first two scenarios) the entire empire is considered the Emperor's demesne. That actually might solve some of the problems related to the differences between most of the European nations and the Byzantine Empire....
I was thinking that the Opsacian, Buccelarian and Macedonian Themes, perhaps with Antioch, would be Demense.
 
Interesting idea but didn't each province have a military governor, the Strategos if I recall correctly. Perhaps as Emperor you would appoint them to each Theme like a "vassal" of a sort and it could then fit into the Feudal engine that way.
 
Originally posted by John Poole
Interesting idea but didn't each province have a military governor, the Strategos if I recall correctly. Perhaps as Emperor you would appoint them to each Theme like a "vassal" of a sort and it could then fit into the Feudal engine that way.

Yes as an effort to try and stop the decline of imperial order the empire was divided up into Themes which were headed by the "Strategos." But by the time this game starts they were already well on their way out. By the 11th c. the strategos were being supplanted in their power by provincial magnate, praetors. although the formation of the themes could, I suppose, be viewed as a trend towards feudalism, it was only nominally successful, and didn't legally change the authority of the emperor in any part of the empire.
 
Originally posted by John Poole
Interesting idea but didn't each province have a military governor, the Strategos if I recall correctly. Perhaps as Emperor you would appoint them to each Theme like a "vassal" of a sort and it could then fit into the Feudal engine that way.
True, but these themes where to well devided and had the Tagmata to close to be in fear of rebellion, and most of the time had minimal corruption. I think it would be silly to have literal Demense for everything.

I do not know much about Komneni Byzantium, to tell you the truth. My understanding of the area is fairly bleak besides the Alexiad, although I am getting Ostrogorsky this weekend which should help.
 
Feudal Concept

My understanding is that one of the main concepts of Feudalism was the ultimate soverignty of the Roman Emperor. All royal title are thus considered delegations of that soverignty. Originally this was as a vassalage to Constantinople; later this invisible vassalage is held by the Pope. During the period of Crusader Kings, the exact nature of this vassalage was one of the most hotly contested issues in the Medeval world. (lay investure, excommunications, etc.)

It is true that by 1066, the western dynasties had long abandoned any obiesence to Constantinople. In the 8th cent. Pope Stephen had crossed the alps to seek aid of the Franks and in return bestow papal blessing upon the Frankish king. This event is probably the instument which most represents the transfer of ultimate "Roman Soverignty" from Constantinople to Rome. In time the Papal Blessing would be the Sine Qua Non of European Royalty... and then not again.

In this also is hidden the reason why the Ancien Regime in France was not a vassal to the Holy Roman Emperor, and thus France never a part the Holy Roman Empire. This is not to say that such a result was a forgone conclusion as of 1066. It was only the fortune of the bloodline of the Ancien Regime to be maintained.

There will be a lot of code under the hood of CK, I think.
 
Well, you see another point. That is that certain claims are based on bloodline, while others are based upon the throne itself. For example: The Papal blessing upon Pepin was termed in such a way that it extended to Pepin's descendants, and not the throne of France in particular. Had the Ancien Regime run dry, then the Papal blessing would not necessarily be extended to a replacement dynasty. At least it was not phased that way.

Conversely, the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire (whomever is chosen by the Electors) has the Papal sanction to rule the HRE. It matters not if he is Habsburg, Luxemburg, Jagellion, or even some odd fellow from Anjou. The sanction here follows the throne, not the dynasty.

Too sublime? I apologise in advance.