Announcing DLC 3 for Age of Wonders Planetfall: Star Kings!

[Satonir]

please tell if this is gonna have its fix

I cant look whithout tears how this dirty things come into world 3 per tirn and my enemy who didnot even make any colonizer has full map controe with 9 highspeed stacks tirn 29 while I sit on my 7-cities empire understanding that I can do absolutely nothing to those, whatever I ever do

 

[Satonir]

I see absolutely no way of winning aginst this, except maybe lucky amazon xeno super rush. You can not pick this off, because they are very fast and they dominate any non-mindless t2 unit with 65% chance. The get mods for free. They have 2 upkeep. From tirn 25 the player gets t3s for free. No tempo is faster then the tempo of this, no army can take this without heavy casualties. Add conduit and there is no way.

 

[Satonir]

@Tombles what say you?

 

[DragonZee]

Lol, life will find it's way... I see multiplayer guys found yet another exploit

 

[Draxynnic]

There's usually a balance patch with or around a DLC release, and given how well publicised that has been I highly doubt that the devs aren't aware of it. So... cross your fingers, I guess?

 

[Triumph Jordi]

@Satonir Please watch the language you use and try to refrain from tagging Devs (especially during the weekend). There are several Heritor changes included in the upcoming Update however nothing specific regarding the Drained Mind Control abilities.

 

[Ridixo]

@Satonir Please watch the language you use and try to refrain from tagging Devs (especially during the weekend). There are several Heritor changes included in the upcoming Update however nothing specific regarding the Drained Mind Control abilities.

Good, i think the drained are working as they should
About the Heritor changes can we get some info, please, or we will have to wait for the patch notes, or a DD?

 

[Triumph Jordi]

About the Heritor changes can we get some info, please, or we will have to wait for the patch notes, or a DD?

We have several interesting Dev Diaries lined up that further explore the new features and content provided by Star Kings and the Free Patch.

Update Notes are reserved for their own post at launch as there are still things that can change leading up to November 10th. As we've done since Launch we aim at simultaneous releases and as much feature parity as we can guarantee, depending on your counting method we are preparing Star Kings for 6 to 10 platforms so as you can imagine there's a lot to account for.

 

[Ridixo]

We have several interesting Dev Diaries lined up that further explore the new features and content provided by Star Kings and the Free Patch.

Plural? There is only one before the Star kings release. In any case thanks. Heritor is one of the Secret Tech i like the most, and want to see some good changes at it
Thanks for the information

 

[Satonir]

@Satonir Please watch the language you use and try to refrain from tagging Devs (especially during the weekend). There are several Heritor changes included in the upcoming Update however nothing specific regarding the Drained Mind Control abilities.

Ty for the reply. Got a bit of inactive on forum lately because of 12/7 hard work. Sry if my language is inappropriate for this kind of forum. I'm not a native speaker and just a but used to brief communication.
Hope the problem I mentioned will come into your attention, I remember, devs said in one diaries ("Exploits!") that there is no place for "I win buttons" in the game.
The thing I am speaking of is an "I win button" that can be even worse then the thing we spoke about at "Tironasaurus" patch (Engulfers abuse) though it took much more time to PvP abusers to find such.

If you need something from me to convince you, just state the thing. Screenshots? Footage? I'll make if needed. Test game with a tester? No problem.

Please continue improving game experience by destroying abusive mechanics as you always did.

 

[Satonir]

@Satonir Please watch the language you use and try to refrain from tagging Devs (especially during the weekend). There are several Heritor changes included in the upcoming Update however nothing specific regarding the Drained Mind Control abilities.

Btw you must have got me wrong. MC ability is only a part of this unit superiority. The unit is dirt cheap, requires no production, fast as a scout, has good damage and superstrong mod variations. It gets mods for free, has lowered upkeep and trades with t3 with same value.
This lets spam the unit nonstop without even creating a single other unit the whole game and clear all map at once with a ridiculous amount of battle parties. Thew you just swarm your enemy empire like no other strategy can. The strategy looks pretty alike with xenoplague, but in fact the only thing they have in common is a way to get units without spending production points. The main difference is that while Xeno is strong at early and midgame and lacks lategame capability, while drained spam is strong every single moment of the game.

 

[Ridixo]

This lets spam the unit nonstop without even creating a single other unit the whole game and clear all map at once with a ridiculous amount of battle parties. Thew you just swarm your enemy empire like no other strategy can. The strategy looks pretty alike with xenoplague, but in fact the only thing they have in common is a way to get units without spending production points. The main difference is that while Xeno is strong at early and midgame and lacks lategame capability, while drained spam is strong every single moment of the game.

What you say sounds like a problem, but the main one is that you are on the receiving end. Spamming drained needs victims to drain. you can't just create them out of thin air. Modding a unit to be OP with mods is part of the game, even if it's one that already can have powerful synergies with those mods. So i need to ask. If it were you using those drained to win the game would you comply about the balance of the units and the game?

Also the Xenoplague lacking late game capabilities is hilarious. The other days i got an army of 5 plague lords. I add them Bio-Spore Proliferation to resurrect other units, even while the plague lords already have that; Parasitic Symbiosis so that they regenerate and the units near, also having a lot more life; and finally Sprouting Infestation just to give them a little more damage. So each plague lord could regenerate and cure each other, they got lots of life, and each time one of them finally died it could be bring back again to continue fighting. OP yes, fun yes

 

[Snorro Soliman]

Btw you must have got me wrong. MC ability is only a part of this unit superiority. The unit is dirt cheap, requires no production, fast as a scout, has good damage and superstrong mod variations. It gets mods for free, has lowered upkeep and trades with t3 with same value.
This lets spam the unit nonstop without even creating a single other unit the whole game and clear all map at once with a ridiculous amount of battle parties. Thew you just swarm your enemy empire like no other strategy can. The strategy looks pretty alike with xenoplague, but in fact the only thing they have in common is a way to get units without spending production points. The main difference is that while Xeno is strong at early and midgame and lacks lategame capability, while drained spam is strong every single moment of the game.

As @Ridixo notes above drained require targets and significant investment (and, in MP, the ability to actually fight manual battles, which is limited by the battlecard system). The energy used on the tactical op, the chance of a drained being spawned succesfully all represent lost opportunity costs. Where you might chose to spend your energy on generating drained (or rather the chance to generate a drained), I'd use it to rush out another tier1 or tier2 unit, or weaken the drained stack with a ' nuke' op.
Further drained are fragile and cannot mind control until the max rank. In my view they, even massed, would fare poorly against lvl 3 defences+turrets on most races.
I do agree the drained are powerfull, even before the tech tree buff mod or divine legion strat op. But those, again require further investment.
To counter mass drained, wouldn't mass mindless units, long range or high damage, single shot units (trenchers, snipers, Forgotten Golems) work? Alphastrike a single drained, kite, strike again, repeat?
The free mods are a more siginficant issue. I agree that this provides a (perhaps too) powefull reward for converting drained. Especially because you may then invest in upgrading the drained to the most optimal form, which may include mods you normally dont have access to.
It is s a lot of fun to acquire cool drained, but I can understand why it would be considered op.

 

[Ridixo]

The free mods are a more siginficant issue. I agree that this provides a (perhaps too) powefull reward for converting drained. Especially because you may then invest in upgrading the drained to the most optimal form, which may include mods you normally dont have access to.
It is s a lot of fun to acquire cool drained, but I can understand why it would be considered op.

Yes, drained as they are right now are fine. Using a doctrine to target them specifically can be a lost doctrine. Divine Legion only affect a single unit, other doctrines may have better effect and for more units. The mods problem can be the real problem. When you convert units with mind control is okay that they come with mods, but drained should work more like Xenoplague units. Coming without mods and also requiring an investment before they can be used other than as meat shields. Getting blank drained that need modding could solve that without them getting nerfed. Spawning them already can be complicated. In a Heritor game just one week ago i din't got any drained. I keep using auto battle and the AI doesn't use, or don't get luck with Condemn. Heritor is good but i think is better in manual battles than automatic battles

 

[Sinsling]

What you say sounds like a problem, but the main one is that you are on the receiving end. Spamming drained needs victims to drain. you can't just create them out of thin air. Modding a unit to be OP with mods is part of the game, even if it's one that already can have powerful synergies with those mods. So i need to ask. If it were you using those drained to win the game would you comply about the balance of the units and the game?

Also the Xenoplague lacking late game capabilities is hilarious. The other days i got an army of 5 plague lords. I add them Bio-Spore Proliferation to resurrect other units, even while the plague lords already have that; Parasitic Symbiosis so that they regenerate and the units near, also having a lot more life; and finally Sprouting Infestation just to give them a little more damage. So each plague lord could regenerate and cure each other, they got lots of life, and each time one of them finally died it could be bring back again to continue fighting. OP yes, fun yes

Yes actually, we do complain about op things even when we are the ones using them because it isnt fun to be locked in to one play style because it becomes the only way to beat said playstyle.

As @Ridixo notes above drained require targets and significant investment (and, in MP, the ability to actually fight manual battles, which is limited by the battlecard system). The energy used on the tactical op, the chance of a drained being spawned succesfully all represent lost opportunity costs. Where you might chose to spend your energy on generating drained (or rather the chance to generate a drained), I'd use it to rush out another tier1 or tier2 unit, or weaken the drained stack with a ' nuke' op.
Further drained are fragile and cannot mind control until the max rank. In my view they, even massed, would fare poorly against lvl 3 defences+turrets on most races.
I do agree the drained are powerfull, even before the tech tree buff mod or divine legion strat op. But those, again require further investment.
To counter mass drained, wouldn't mass mindless units, long range or high damage, single shot units (trenchers, snipers, Forgotten Golems) work? Alphastrike a single drained, kite, strike again, repeat?
The free mods are a more siginficant issue. I agree that this provides a (perhaps too) powefull reward for converting drained. Especially because you may then invest in upgrading the drained to the most optimal form, which may include mods you normally dont have access to.
It is s a lot of fun to acquire cool drained, but I can understand why it would be considered op.

Pbem is not limited by cards- in fact, cards dont even work right in pbem! They aren't an issue in live yet, but the upcoming expansion seems to be changing that.

 

[Snorro Soliman]

Yes actually, we do complain about op things even when we are the ones using them because it isnt fun to be locked in to one play style because it becomes the only way to beat said playstyle.
Pbem is not limited by cards- in fact, cards dont even work right in pbem! They aren't an issue in live yet, but the upcoming expansion seems to be changing that.

Ah, my bad, pbem is another category. I understand the objection, but do not quite agree on drained being that op. Would you agree on the point of drained requiring set up, investment and tactical moves that might be sub-optimal, such as prolonging a combat(giving an enemy infantry unit an extra turn to cast condemn on them).
Are the really that much stronger then rushing an extra colonizer or a higher tier unit out?

 

[Satonir]

Guys, those who play with me know that I never ever spam abusive strats, and I don't care of winning. I only care of game experience. Okay, it will not be shy to say, but people know me as a killjoy, because I usually rape them hard with different usual and simple strategies and instruments, combined in a well-calibrated way. And I care of the PvP community because I love those guys. Everyone, including the abusers. Why am I loving the abusers? Off course because they show everyone what the game lacks. This game is an absolute masterpiece rignt now, because devs do care.
About Xenoplague: In good old times on frntier world I had 7 lords tirn 20 against Dread Reapr. He saw them and surrendered right at the moment. It took pretty long to explain why it is frontier xeno amazon that is unstoppable, not the xeno itself. He had to start playing Xeno to calm down in a pair of games.
The situation with drained is different. It is totally not normal to be able to win 10-12 fights per tirn on tirn 29 everywhere on the map wiith no problem. You can run from any army, nobody can catch you, while you can strike from everywhere.
Large garrisons and turrets are not used in multiplayer, just informing you.

"Where you might chose to spend your energy on generating drained (or rather the chance to generate a drained), I'd use it to rush out another tier1 or tier2 unit, or weaken the drained stack with a ' nuke' op."
Basic chance of a drained spawn from t1 unit is 97%. 60 energy is a cost of a t 1.5 unit. And this unit you get instantly. No production, no logistics problem. With 2 upkeep in 10 turns you will get back those 20 energy you overpayed for a t1 unit. And through progressing through the tech tree because of tons of troffies every tirn you will soon realize that your t1 unit slowly but strongly transforms into a t3 value unit.

 

[NINJEW]

Ah, my bad, pbem is another category. I understand the objection, but do not quite agree on drained being that op. Would you agree on the point of drained requiring set up, investment and tactical moves that might be sub-optimal, such as prolonging a combat(giving an enemy infantry unit an extra turn to cast condemn on them).
Are the really that much stronger then rushing an extra colonizer or a higher tier unit out?

Those moves stop being suboptimal when the reward is so enormous

 

[Sinsling]

Ah, my bad, pbem is another category. I understand the objection, but do not quite agree on drained being that op. Would you agree on the point of drained requiring set up, investment and tactical moves that might be sub-optimal, such as prolonging a combat(giving an enemy infantry unit an extra turn to cast condemn on them).
Are the really that much stronger then rushing an extra colonizer or a higher tier unit out?

The setup requirement is trivial and extending combats to maximize heals/captures is optimal. I'm not sure why you'd consider it suboptimal to get the highest return value possible, or to get the equivalent of a t3 for a fraction of the cost.

Its' certainly difficult(practically impossible really) to use drained in simultaneous turns w/ auto or combat cards enforced, but the upcoming Star Kings changes look like they'll provide ways to make this strategy possible. It does look like they had the foresight to address the problem before making it an issue that affects all modes of play.

 

[Snorro Soliman]

@Sinsling and @NINJEW
Thanks for the swift replies. I'll admit I'm more theorycrafting and not a terribly gifted mp player. You all raise valid counters. I might have to reconsider my position on this.

An extra thought then
Having looked at the dev diaries and streams the ability to instruct the Autobattle AI to use just the condemn op might make your concerns even more valid, as the AI might start reliably generating Drained.