Anyone Else Find Subjugators Lackluster?

[Garresh]

I'm experimenting with different indentured strategies, and I'm starting to feel like Subjugators just aren't really worth it. They're slow. Broken Mind doesn't synergize well with indentured damage channel. They don't do good damage on their own. Their mind control takes 3 action points and they're so slow they can't even move before using it, which means it's very hard to land it unless facing melee units.

The rez is really nice, but consider Mirage + Overseer, or double Overseer, instead of Overseer+Subjugator. All 3 provide survivability, but Mirage can protect a full stack with +40% evasion. Double overseer compensates the loss of rez with multiple invulns.

Like, indentured are incredible. But I feel like Subjugators are worth the research until you're blitzing for Zeniths. Am I wrong?

 

[Garresh]

Gonna give this one bump then let it die. Not even one agreement or disagreement! At the very least someone tell me how I'm wrong! I kinda hope I am wrong.

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I haven't gotten them yet, i usually go hard into secret tech as soon as i hit mirages. With a range of 5, permanent duration, and with a disable proc if the mind control fails collar is extremely powerful... if it didnt require 3 action points itd be horrendously OP...

Bear in mind you can indenture any t1 or t2 of other races, not just the syndicate starter infantry. Kirko have a lot of psychic units, for example, that would make a good psychic stack.

if you do voidtech you could use Abduct to bring a collar target to you, or Evacuate to bring the subjugator to the front lines.

 

[Garresh]

Hm. That's true. But for a point of comparison, there's the override daemon that synthesis heroes can get which has none of those restrictions. And many factions t3s are mechanical. That ability is significantly more effective. Otoh, you can make a stack of Subjugators to go around spamming indentured. But opposing that, recruitment stacks aren't nearly as strong as they were in aow3 because you only get t1 units from it, which only cost 20 energy to produce.

Lol. I suppose I should spend more time thinking on this. Perhaps I'll make a stack of nothing but Subjugators and run around seeing what I can do.

That being said, I know this is something of an unfair comparison since it's referencing an entirely different game. But Succubi were not overpowered at all EXCEPT in PBEM. And they had better debuffing ability, were more mobile, and had a stronger mind control.

I'll toy around with them more I suppose. Just not impressed atm.

 

[Ethorin]

EXCEPT in PBEM

but they and other's like them utterly warped PBEM horrifically.

Anyway, yeah, if you only have Indentured in your army Subjugators are prolly less useful than they would be with Arc given Static Buildup is a thing. On the other hand basically every racial unit PAST Guild Sniper that goes on land does Psy damage so eh.

 

[Garresh]

but they and other's like them utterly warped PBEM horrifically.

Anyway, yeah, if you only have Indentured in your army Subjugators are prolly less useful than they would be with Arc given Static Buildup is a thing. On the other hand basically every racial unit PAST Guild Sniper that goes on land does Psy damage so eh.

Sorry, what do you mean by this? Are you saying they fulfill a strong role in non-indentured armies, or what?

 

[Ethorin]

More that Broken Mind is likely to be useful if/when you start deploying things that are not Indentured/Snipers

 

[Nussor]

As so often in this kind of game, effective range makes or breaks an ability.

 

[Blastom]

Does broken mind affects psi units with focus mod? Most of the units in middle or late stage shall have focus mod, which changes their damage type to fire or bio instead of psi, so if it only affects psi, it's still not quite useful.

 

[Vladisi]

Does broken mind affects psi units with focus mod? Most of the units in middle or late stage shall have focus mod, which changes their damage type to fire or bio instead of psi, so if it only affects psi, it's still not quite useful.

Broken Mind is not an inherent part of Psionic damage channel (and there are plenty of Psionic attacks that don't apply Broken Mind), it is a part of ability. Focus changes the damage channel but it doesn't affect the ability itself, including the fact that the ability remains Psionic. A Psionic ability turned with a focus mod from dealing Psionic damage into Thermal or Biochemical won't be suddenly able to accept Laser (or Plasma) or Biochemical mods and will continue to accept Psionic mods.

 

[Ethorin]

I don't understand the assumption of Focus Flames or Focus Venom... there ARE other things I might well want instead.

 

[The Founder]

roken Mind doesn't synergize well with indentured damage channel.

Subjugators are a specialist/caster unit.
The main weapon is indeed pretty "meh", but that is not the focus.

As full Actions they got:
- The Agony Field. Wich is a Hex AoE with 12 Psionic damage, and also a "Broken Mind" debuff
- Cerebral Control Collars.

Cerebral Control Collars are a powerfull thing. It is either a Mind Control or a Disable. And also a way to get new Indentured units in the field.
I prefer having that power on my heroes (way more durable and a Level 8 Syndicate Option), but it is there. And Range 5.

Broken mind is primarily a -100 Morale debuff, that can stack 5 times. And do not underestiamte morale in combat!
Crits and Fumbles can make or break strategies.

On non-full actions it got:
- Repeaters. Again, as a Specialist/Support it's attack is "meh".
- A Indentured Revive, that is range 5 too.

As for the whole Indentured Mechanic, I totally agree that this should get a expansion/buff:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ake-syndicate-control-collars-usefull.1231482

 

[Garresh]

So I've been doing more experimenting and I find the Subjugator issue is getting worse in my eyes. They function as a sort of zoning option to prevent melee from getting close and to counter that, but Overseers are straight up superior in every way. Let me paint a picture.

If you go down the Syndicate mod line, you get access to two VERY powerful mods. The first lets your overseers give a battlefield wide damage boost to all indentured. The second boosts indentured crit chance by 25%, bringing it up to 35% BEFORE morale bonuses. And indentured cannot suffer from negative morale penalties. So you might be thinking that you just need 1 overseer then bring a Subjugator. But wait, there's more!

Because that battlefield wide inspiration mod is a psionic buff, you can add riders to it, which are plentiful in the psionic weapon line. You can custom tailor your overseers to whatever fight is coming. You can add a 15 hp heal that hits the entire battlefield. You can add a STACKING +3 to shields. If you don't mind wasting the damage bonus later in the battle, you can give them all +6 or +9 shields for the first 2 turns of the fight. You can adjust for duration or intensity based on how fast you fire off. You can add mantra of clarity to give them all light obscurement for 20% miss chance on enemy attacks vs them. Or you can put on an elemental specific focus and give +6 resistance to biochemical or thermal damage channels.

And I haven't even touched psynumbra yet. No literally, I haven't actually played a game with psynumbra! I'll probably be revising and upgrading if it has good buff mods.

The fact that Overseers can cause exponential force multipliers blows Subjugators out of the water on both cost and power. The way I see it, Subjugators kind of fail in their intended role. They don't have great offensive capabilities. Broken Mind, while nice, is only 100 morale penalty. It doesn't get good unless you stack it, which requires dedicated Subjugators stacks. But that's incredibly risky because all their good abilities require 3 action points and they're just begging to be staggered. So they are inferior to overseers in a support role, and unfit to be used in a dedicated combat role either.

Tbh, even Mirages stop being useful out of midgame because Overseers provide better defensive value, without being limited to a 7 hex area. They also don't need to expose themselves.

I feel like Syndicate has a weird situation where they have FOUR different supports, but only 2 of them stay relevant. One is pretty awesome in earlygame then falls off. Ths other is never really good. Overseers are insane. And the Zenith is just awesome.

The one exception is Subjugator vehicles for heroes. It's still not great, but if you're a pilot in mid to Lategame there's not much else you can do. You can stay in the APC for ANOTHER accuracy buff. But at that point it's competing with all of your other actions gained from mods. If you're using tons of items, the Subjugators situational abilities aren't as bad because you spend all your turns doing other stuff. Also, your hero will have auras. So in that case it's decent. TBH though I still think an APC might still be better. 20% accuracy on top of everything else is no joke, and still better than a mediocre debuff or 1 rez. The rez is still really good though to be fair.

Edit: However, there is one neat use of the Mirage I haven't touched on yet, but its not really a combat thing exactly. Going to make another thread on it.

 

[The Founder]

And indentured cannot suffer from negative morale penalties.

The Syndicate Indentured Unit can have both Positive and Negative Morale. At least I think that is the case. I remember having seen positve morale on the Indentured unit.
Units that became indentured via teh Cerebral Control Collar Mod are immune to all morale effects - positvie and negative.

It is important to differentiate those two cases.

Because that battlefield wide inspiration mod is a psionic buff, you can add riders to it, which are plentiful in the psionic weapon line.

Wait, you can?

Dangit, I never even considered it.

 

[Saitta]

Use the subjugator as a tank. Make a full Heavy army of wraiths, a subjugator, and a zenith if you have it. Broken mind buffs other psionic damage so wraiths benefit.

At that stage in the game you will probably have 2 or more stacks rolling around together anyway so if one is Indentured/Overseer and another is Wraiths/Subjugator you're good to go, but even if you don't the Subjugator can make 1 Indentured per battle against humanoids.

 

[Garresh]

Use the subjugator as a tank. Make a full Heavy army of wraiths, a subjugator, and a zenith if you have it. Broken mind buffs other psionic damage so wraiths benefit.

At that stage in the game you will probably have 2 or more stacks rolling around together anyway so if one is Indentured/Overseer and another is Wraiths/Subjugator you're good to go, but even if you don't the Subjugator can make 1 Indentured per battle against humanoids.

Good idea. I'll experiment with putting those two together. But if it does work it will be very strange, as the overseer feels like it should be paired with indentured, not wraith tanks. I'll test it out.

 

[Garresh]

I'm fairly certain even normal indentured are immune to morale penalties. I've never seen them fumble, and in negative morale areas they are always neutral at worst. I could be forgetful though. I am a rather oblivious sort.

 

[Promethian]

Normal indentured have all the benefits of the collar mod. Its just built into their character instead of attached to a trait.

 

[The Founder]

Normal indentured have all the benefits of the collar mod. Its just built into their character instead of attached to a trait.

Ah okay, thanks for the verification.
It is somewhat hard to see, as "Indentured" is not a thing on the Unit card.

 

[Blastom]

I think the most serious problem of subjugators is their 24 move speed - they will slow down the whole army by 25% on strategy map.
Unless there're some mods to boost their speed up, they are not handy enough to compensate this.