AoD in Colour

[Epaminondas]

unfortunately it seems to be always the M2 or M3

It's because these were in fact the only models supplied in quantity through the period. The Americans, probably sensibly, valued production over performance and once they had a reasonable design standardised on this and just built more and more of them. They did develop many variants of this design for employment in different roles, but the basic shape is readily recognisable in all of these.

I think you can get away with a shift to the M75 in 1951 as you've indicated. It didn't get into serial production until 1952 but there were enough of them around in 1951 to indicate that it was going to be the next developmental step. Without a timeframe I'm not sure which way you should jump for #7, though. Chronologically the next type introduced was the M59 which started production in 1953 but which, like the M75, was phased out pretty quickly as an inadequate response to the demands made on it in Vietnam. The true qualitative advance came with the M113, but that didn't arrive until 1960.

My suggestion would be to use the M2 for #1 and then successive M3 variants for #2 through #5. That wouldn't be altogether ahistorical since the introduction of these coincided with advances in doctrine on the use of mechanised infantry. In that light they can be seen to represent developments in that type of force. You could certainly broaden your image base by introducing armoured cars into the progression but that might be a little confusing given that they have a category of their own.

When it comes to Commonwealth forces things really get messy. As the war progressed they became increasingly dependent on US production so that 'local' types tended to fall out of service and be replaced by M2s and M3s. I'll do a little digging and see if I can't come up with some sort of sequence for the Brits at least.

 

[bestmajor]

model No. 7 is not ingame, as said. its only an entry in the db/units/divisions/mechanized.txt - so there is no image needed for it. the strip with the ills is moreor less my suggestion for the US mech models. since i dont know much about the models and all the mechs look very much the same for me (M2 and M3) i took the M8 as model No. 5.
except for Hlaftracks, maybe also tankettes or the bren gun carrier could be used maybe? just everything which is armoured and smaller than a MBT (that was my idea).

 

[Epaminondas]

It's as I feared, major. I don't think that your going to be able to get truly historical analogues for British or Commonwealth forces at many of the levels you list. For a start, and I'm happy to stand correction on this, I think that NZ was the only Commonwealth nation to field anything approaching a 'mechanised' division. The Brits and Canadians did run a few mechanised brigades (largely as independent formations I think) and while India and South Africa got to the point of motorising some divisions my mob (the Aussies) didn't even get that far. In this regard, then, you're in pretty much the same position as you were with the battlecruisers - a few nations had 'em but most didn't, so getting actual historical images that suit is going to be straight out impossible.

On top of that there remains my original point about US equipments increasingly dominating the materiel used by what mechanised forces there were. There are a few 'native' standout vehicles that would merit inclusion (the British Universal Carrier and the Canadian Kangaroo for example) but for the most part you'd be filling the slots with the same types as you'll be using for the US.

If you'd like me to cobble together a range of images that you might want to work with let me know, but I'm afraid that this is a case where history doesn't accommodate your exacting standards.

 

[Epaminondas]

Okay, just picked up your most recent post. Some time tomorrow I'll throw together a grab bag of possibles and you can see what you make of them.

 

[bestmajor]

oh that was quick, thanks. as for SAF i just found a candidate: Marmon-Herrington Armoured Car
http://www.ww2incolor.com/britain/Brits_20pantservoertuig_20in_20Syr__20juni_201941_1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmon-Herrington_Armoured_Car

i think especially the ww2incolor image could be okay - even more as i will never see the image ingame - since it is a division and not an exact model i can allow myself some freedom in this case, i think (unlike the ships which are usually technically defined models)

 

[Epaminondas]

Using armoured cars opens up the field of candidates enormously. There were several models of the Marmon-Harrington introduced into service for example, and I think I should be able to find at least one 'native' example for each of the Commonwealth countries. I'll be sure to include them so that you can make your call on what works best for you.

 

[bestmajor]

yes, thanks. i think i'll look at the armoured cars. i just found the Manitoba Dragoons http://data2.archives.ca/ap/a/a144144-v6.jpg for Canada and some prewar indian army unit http://www.ww2incolor.com/britain/india_202.html
also all sorts of toop carriers will do http://www.ww2incolor.com/britain/normandie_1944_then_now_105.html

 

[Titan79]

(...) so if you have some in mind for the CW (SAF, ENG, CAN, AST, NZL) or USA and related states (PHI) please post it (or i can have a look a Titans project - or better ask, since i wont be able to ID the vehicles myself anyway...).

EDIT: looks like Titan also uses the M3 only, at least in the base package

Heh, the fact is, Best, that such an icon is one of those which were already done (taken maybe from Cpack's or MajorChico's sets; I don't remember) and which I modded just by adding to it the same tag, flag, tier etc. scheme as my other ones.

So, it is not a 1:1 guaranteed image of the "correct" model for that peculiar situation, like it normally is when you take e.g. any of the aircraft icons... It simply was ok to me and thus I left it there, but don't consider it necessarily 100% accurate/appropriate .

 

[bestmajor]

well, becoming a semi-expert in US mechs right now i do not wonder - like Epa pointed out its usually the same look/model and i can only discriminate the different models by the background/the situation or environment. so i think your approach is historically correct, i just need different images which tell the player that model one is superior/later than model two.

 

[Epaminondas]

I just love the last one and all that it says about military thinking - "Hey, we could certainly use an all terrain vehicle to tow our arty, so lets take the bottom half of a Crusader and stick a house on top of it. Yeah we know that'll make a hell of a target on the battlefield, but if we make it out of quarter inch plate it should be okay."

Alrighty, down to business - starting with the Yanks.

For the '41 image I'd pull the first ill in your strip (the British helmets) and save that for use in the British collection. I'd replace it with an image showing the initial roles conceived for armoured mech - recce and command. This http://www78.zippyshare.com/v/20703456/file.html would be perfect except for the cropping and this http://www78.zippyshare.com/v/99631031/file.html is accurate but not too inspiring. Alternatively, I think you could use the third ill in your strip here, or maybe one of these http://www78.zippyshare.com/v/99888521/file.html.

I'd keep the '42 image that you have already - I think it works a treat.

For the '44 image I'd use something showing the artillery role - maybe one of these http://www78.zippyshare.com/v/24640663/file.html.

In 1945 the Americans introduced a rocket firing variant of the M3 that would be ideal, but I can't find a pic of it so I think I'd illustrate the AA role instead with one of these http://www78.zippyshare.com/v/39769869/file.html.

And for '47 I you reckon you could easily stick with the AC or perhaps use one of these wicked pics http://www78.zippyshare.com/v/61011816/file.html of the T55 3" Gun Motor Carriage that would have gone into series production but for the war's end.

Hope I've given you some alternatives at least. Tonight I'll try to get something to you for the Brits.

 

[Epaminondas]

I think the '41 image for the Brits pretty much has to be the Universal Carrier - it was produced in such numbers and was so representative of British doctrine at the time that I reckon it has a lock on the starting position. I've gathered some possibles here http://www39.zippyshare.com/v/60801890/file.html. I personally prefer pics e and f because they show the Bren armament and convey a sense of the mass employment projected.

For '42 I think there are a couple of ways to go. You can use up-armed Carriers (I can pull you pics of them with Vickers machine guns and 2pdr AT) or show the arrival of the American models. I think showing the US contribution is more historical and that the first ill in your strip does that perfectly. The American vehicle with arty armament shows the two streams of development American production and introduction of the support role. If you'd prefer a straight Personnel Carrier, though, you might want to use this http://www22.zippyshare.com/v/40098981/file.html.

Sorry, my connection's just gone beserk. I'll try to get back later.

 

[bestmajor]

thanks, that was a lot! i made one of them. the onlyproblem i cant solve is that the universal or bren gun carrier is already in use as the cavalry model for various nations (just before the invention of helicopters http://www.ww2incolor.com/australian-forces/Bren.html in AST, IND, ENG, FRA). but as there seems to be no other solution i use them as MEC as well.

i made one of yours, but also found a lot in the Imperial War Museum:

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/47/media-47688/large.jpg?action=d&cat=photographs (ok thats an M3 or M2)
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/45/media-45094/large.jpg?action=d&cat=photographs (Humber with Priest)
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/32/media-32606/large.jpg?action=d&cat=photographs (in use as british CAV)
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/41/media-41405/large.jpg?action=d&cat=photographs (a very good one: Gebirgs-MEC)
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/40/media-40299/large.jpg?action=d&cat=photographs
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/39/media-39713/large.jpg?action=d&cat=photographs
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/47/media-47859/large.jpg?action=d&cat=photographs
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/48/media-48169/large.jpg?action=d&cat=photographs
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/46/media-46521/large.jpg?action=d&cat=photographs
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/57/media-57956/large.jpg?action=d&cat=photographs (indian MEC/CAV)
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/48/media-48009/large.jpg?action=d&cat=photographs
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/40/media-40066/large.jpg?action=d&cat=photographs

so what could be good is if you would post models names which could be used as tags to search with in the IWM.

i made one of your pics, just in comparison to the rest of the world, the UK-MECs are rather small now.

 

[Epaminondas]

so what could be good is if you would post models names which could be used as tags to search with in the IWM.

Sounds sensible, no sense both of us chasing the same pig.

Okay, for Britain and using the same structure as for the US (recce, personnel, arty, anti-air, continuing development) my recommended progression would be:

1941: Universal Carrier (or if you really want to keep that for other use, Humber Scout Car Mark I or II or Humber Light Recce Mark III)
1942: British marked or manned M3 (sample here http://www78.zippyshare.com/v/61042163/file.html)
1944: Your British manned M3 arty pic or AEC Deacon Matador (Matador is truck chassis; there's another Deacon which is the Brit version of the Priest)
1945: Humber A/A Mark I (sample here http://www78.zippyshare.com/v/35889687/file.html and tracked alternative here http://www78.zippyshare.com/v/30240056/file.html)
1947: Staghound III or Coventry III AC

I'm a bit pressed for time tonight but I'll get some recommendations re Canada and India to you tomorrow.

 

[bestmajor]

thanks for the list. there is no hurry at all, i just do 2 or 3 per day and i have tons of other images i want to make.

as for the "british manned M3" (my posted image and the image you posted and which is also on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Halftracks-fort-knox.gif : those are IMO not british soldiers, but american soldiers wearing british helmets/Brodie helmets/M1917 (see the URL of my linked image). see also: http://historylink101.com/ww2_color/WorldWarIIWeapons/IMG_2301.html or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Infantryman_in_1942_with_M1_Garand,_Fort_Knox,_KY.jpg.

otherwise what about a Kangaroo APC?


EDIT: to backup my Brodie helmet idea: some images i made for the US-garrisons (mostly US MP). note the Brodie helmets in the early images

 

[Epaminondas]

those are IMO not british soldiers, but american soldiers wearing british helmets/Brodie helmets/M1917

It's a line ball. Your image might well be, and looking at it closely probably is, an M2 (T12) while I'm pretty confident mine is an M5 - a variant of the M3 that was supplied under lend-lease (the number of men being carried and the Vickers MG are the clues). The M2 entered service in 1941 but only a hundred or so M5s were produced prior to 1943. The M1917 helmet was retained in service until 1942 but was being rapidly phased out from 1941 when the M1 helmet was introduced. Put all of that together and there's an overlap that would allow for your pic to be of an American unit but I don't see any possibility of that for mine - the Wiki caption not withstanding. That said, it's your opinion that counts here.

otherwise what about a Kangaroo APC?

The Kangaroo is a definite starter but you'll need to make a call on who you want it to represent. I'd personally use it for the Canadians (they developed it from their version of the Sherman) but it certainly saw service with the Brits. There was a distinctively British version of the Kangaroo based on their Churchill tank, but from what I can gather it arrived quite late and I've never come across a picture of it in service.

I neglected to say how great I think your colouring of the Bren turned out - the way you use just a wisp of colour to makes things pop from the background is really classy.

More later.

Edit: Hmmm. I've just put the Wiki image under magnification and it looks like the MG might not be a Vickers after all, but a water-cooled Browning M1917. Put that together with the captioned training location and it does seem possible that the pic is of US troops wearing obsolete issue helmets. I'm not as confident of my call as I was.

 

[Epaminondas]

If you want to go with indigenous production for Canada the pickings are going to be fairly slim. This is my best attempt so far at filling the slots.

1941: Hamilton Car (it was an armoured lorry with a turreted MG added)
1942: GM Fox Mark I (the Canadian version of the Humber Mark III) or Otter I Mark I (Canadian made Humber Light Recce Mark III) or Lynx I (Canadian Daimler I)
1944: Artillery SP 6-pdr (a heavily modified Fox) or Priest Kangaroo
1945: Ram Kangaroo
1947: Sherman Skink (that's a stretch since it was prototyped only)

If you're prepared to cast a broader net you have the Bren Carrier again, almost any of the British Daimler and Humber ACs, the Priest, the Staghound T17, and the Centaur II A/A.

 

[bestmajor]

thanks again for your hard work, i'll copy this somewhere and will hunt down the models.


as for the Kangaroo, it is already in use for CAN, but as last CAV model before the helicopters come. since canada does not start with CAV and wont buid any (the canadian human player as well, i think), i think its possible to use this model as dual use thing.
meanwhile i found some Aussies as well and brazilian bikers



was just fed up with too many of these machines and needed some animals and humans again
hope its recogizable as an australian waler.

 

[Epaminondas]

Truth be told, I'd have trouble telling a waler from a doorknob. The pic comes up really well but I'm not sure where you'd use it. As far as I'm aware Australia only managed to put two troops of mounted cavalry into the field in WWII - one in Syria in 1941 and the other in New Guinea of all places in 1942. I'll check further because it would be a shame to see it go to waste.

Aren't top left and top centre the same pic differently cropped and coloured?

Love the Brazilian bikers - they look a very determined lot.

 

[Epaminondas]

India's situation is much the same as Canada's but I'm finding less variety. For what it's worth, and again concentrating on Indian produced vehicles:

1941: Carrier Wheeled 4 x 4 Mark I (Indian) - I think this might be more easily located as ACV-IP Mark I (the specs look very similar) - or Chevrolet Armoured Car (India Pattern) which is likely to be the same as the Chevrolet/Crossley AC which in turn is a different animal to the Crossley Armoured Car (India Pattern)
1942: ACV-IP Mark II
1944: ACV-IP Mark III or ACV-IP IV
After these there's nothing new.

Apart from these I can only find reference to a Truck CWT 4 x 4 Armoured APC introduced in 1943.

At a pinch you might want to squeeze in any of the Vickers Light Tanks (India Pattern) - there were three or four different Marks. Since the only Indian Armoured division to see service appears to have used Stuarts, Lees, and Shermans I don't think there's likely to be an overlap there.

The armoured Quads that you have in your Aussie pics also found a berth in India's forces so they might also get a guernsey.

 

[bestmajor]

Truth be told, I'd have trouble telling a waler from a doorknob. The pic comes up really well but I'm not sure where you'd use it. As far as I'm aware Australia only managed to put two troops of mounted cavalry into the field in WWII - one in Syria in 1941 and the other in New Guinea of all places in 1942. I'll check further because it would be a shame to see it go to waste.

Love the Brazilian bikers - they look a very determined lot.

well the horses are ww2 for sure, i think. i also found the corresponding general: http://www.generals.dk/general/Rankin/George_James/Australia.html but the image is ww1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Light_horse_walers.jpg. so an early model

Aren't top left and top centre the same pic differently cropped and coloured?

yes, the one in the center is in use as CAV. when i searched my collection again, i spotted the other one which is better. the one on the far right is painted.

The armoured Quads that you have in your Aussie pics also found a berth in India's forces so they might also get a guernsey.

the trucks are Austalians in Malaya, AFAIK. but can maybe used as truck for the CW as a whole?