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I was mostly tired writing all these replies and wanted to end on lighter note, including Borat joke. So, yeah, my fault here.

Btw, i watched it just now. And i find it interesting, notice how they struggle to hit the mark at all from few meters.
 
Ah, fair enough. I tend to get annoyed at the historical myths, misinformation, and dogged instance displayed in this thread, so you got caught in my bile. Apologies.
 
Ah, thanks. So yeah, like I suspected, the northeasterly Amazons peoples, half-in-vassalage, half-at-war with the Incas.

Manco Inca raised his rebellion in the jungles, so I am not surprised he returned with poisoned arrows. But Pizarro's original campaign was primarily in the Andes, and he would have been mainly confronting Andean troops.

Fun fact learned when reading around on this: the Incas fought the Amazons folks repeatedly, and the padded cloth vests used by the Inca army was apparently quite effective against poisoned arrows, a point learned by the Spanish government in Peru made it mandatory for every male Spanish colonist to own one.

(Portuguese were already aware of the virtues of padded cloth in confronting West African poisoned arrows, so brought it to Brazil and mandatory there too).
So you can enforce armour for every man that protects well against poisoned arrows, ands you're telling me they're about as lethal as guns?

Is there any place where every adult male had to own a gun-proof armour?
 
I misunderstood you then. I though you were making a stronger claim about wheeled transport (assumed by me to be quite limited to Nile neigbourhood and even there, since, well, perfect Nile with northerly winds and northward current, what's not to love there?) falling into disuse in Egypt due to introduction of camels.

That camels were improvement on Asses or Onagers does not surprise me (nor does forgetting technology falling into disuse. I mean, Tasmanians forgot pretty much everything).

Oh, the Middle East had oxen and horses everywhere already. Camels are a very late arrival. The switch-over happened during Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages, and spread with the Islamic conquest. Where camels arrived, wheeled vehicles soon disappeared altogether (some exceptions - e.g. coexisted in Asia Minor, India).

It is not "forgetting". It is simply camels were better. They are cheap, strong and sure-footed, and don't require road-maintenance.

I did not mean buy as expensive. I meant it, can i go and buy the guns from foreignets? Not everyone could do that effectively (i doubt Caribs could, for example).

There are plenty of European merchants - scrupulous and unscrupulous - who would be happy to sell it to them. Africans were sold heaps of guns.

Admittedly, lack of prior metallurgy among the Caribs may have contributed to reluctance of adoption. You don't need to manufacture guns, but you do need to maintain and repair them. African blacksmiths could do (and did) that easily. Caribs would have had more trouble.

But in general, yeah, military is expression of social system and limited by it, too. But that's another question. Was thete trouble integrating handguns into militaries in general? I do not think so, all around the world, at all times. The integration was different in Japan vs. Iroquois vs. Ethiopia and so on, of course.

Yes there was. You can't leave gunners spread out and unprotected, like you can archers. Archers can largely fend for themselves. But you have to reorganize units, concentrate and design new protective formations to make firearms effective.

Social pressure too. It may not be easy to persuade your noble warrior caste their duty is to stand back and remain stationary to protect some lame peasants with firing sticks. You're depriving them of a chance for heroic duels, glorious deeds and scalp-collecting.

Arrow were more expensive than bullets, iirc, but in general archers are dirt cheap, the cheapest kind of soldier. Maybe except nonexistent proverbial pitchfork wielding peasant :D

That's a curious conclusion. The OP's point is that archers were expensive. Expensive to train if you had them, expensive to hire if you didn't. And (in the OPs theory) the very reason firearms were adopted.

Afaik, poisoned arrows are simply weaker and not very useful in warfare (maybe some Amazon poison is different, dunno), so it wasn't used in it. Mongols too, used them for hunting, but very occassionally against humana.

Weaker than regular arrows? Surely not. But there may have been a matter of inconvenience. Poisoned arrows have to be capped to avoid accidents. You do not want to be reaching into your quiver and get pricked by accident - which might be likelier in the stress of a battle than in the calm of a hunt,

Like with all technological things, there are costs and benefits. If the benefit doesn't outweigh the cost, or you got better alternatives, you don't adopt it.

Well, since i mentioned horses in that village scenario... They were used everywhere they could be and some more which includes overwhelming majority of the world, including, let me make wild guess, half of Africa (and all of India, really, even if imported at great cost)

Not below the Sahel. Horses don't survive the tse-tse fly.

And it is not wise to take horses into a forested area. You're likelier to lose them than any advantage they might bring, And you can't afford to lose horses so cheaply.

They are not necessary for raiding a village but sure they are very useful. Probably even more if you don't have guns!

Their usefulness would be in chasing down fleers, which may be fine if the village is an open area. But if the village is in a forested area, it's only a few yards to the forest line and safety.

To capture stuff, it is much better to do as attackers normally do - approach quietly, spread out and assault from as many multiple sides as you can. A platoon of archers can do that.

Your initial proposal of a slow-moving clustered ball of fireworks moving from one direction is not a wise attacking approach. They're a big noisy target for concentrated missile fire, seen and heard well in advance. If they're not entirely mowed down before they reach the first hut, the enemy will just withdraw and keep hitting them again and again. Frontal assaults are very costly and rarely successful, regardless of how good your guns.

Horses are quicker & easier to spread out, but has its own set of problems - visible at even longer distance (those dust clouds they kick up) and not very maneuverable once they enter built up areas (easy to trap, etc.). Horses work great in open spaces, and are devastating in pursuits. But quite costly to assault with them.

I am pretyy sure Spaniards were limited to places where there was large population, including places with climate and poisons exactly like Castille.

Alas, they didn't have Googlemaps to see where these were. Spanish conquistadors disembarked on coasts, set up camps, marched inland and hoped for the best.

There are certain islands and coasts where they learned (at great cost) that you had better not go. Large swathes of the Spanish Main (northern South America) were quickly seen as problematic and avoided as no-go zones. There be poisoned arrows in them places.

So Pizarro's expedition was quite nerve-wracking and not very enticing. For all the rumors of El Dorado, South America had a very frightening reputation.

Though poisoned blankets are a myth, but - you are Portuguese, so maybe you can tell something about Bandeirantes possible encounters with curare wielding Natives?

Oh, they're not a myth. At least they were reported to be used in Brazil.

Happily most of the Tupi did not have curare (or, rather, happily for the colonists, unhappily for the Tupi). Except up in the Amazon/Guyanas.

But okay, arquebusiers either:

A) commit suicide at the thought of someone putting them in such place.

B) Forget guns and charge.

So you agree with me then? Battle tactics have to change to make firearms effective.

Sending archers forward on their lonesome was a pretty routine tactic. If you're merely replacing bows with guns, and then doing the same thing, it would be suicidal. As you note.

So it is not merely switching technology. You have to switch everything, you have to to change how you organize units and fight battles. And that is not always possible, or wanted, or desirable or worthwhile.

Also my finger hurts :(

Wrap it in armor next time. :)
 
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So you can enforce armour for every man that protects well against poisoned arrows, ands you're telling me they're about as lethal as guns?

Did I say there were as lethal? I am saying the lethality of poisoned arrows is greater than common arrows.

To reiterate: when considering to adopt any technology, you weigh the benefits & costs.

Early guns have the advantage of lethality & less training, bows have the advantage of speed and accuracy.

Adopting guns gives you a lethality advantage over using bows. If that difference is significant enough, then it may be worth the cost of giving up speed and accuracy.

But that gun advantage in lethality is not nearly as great when the alternative of poisonous arrows is available.

Is there any place where every adult male had to own a gun-proof armour?

I don't know. Maybe Detroit?
 
Winged hussars carried bows sometimes too, among like twelve other arms, pistols, hammers, sabres and lances and who knows what else.

But it was niche use. On a side note i doubt ashigaru wete given swords and lances. More like pointy sticks aka yaru...

Contrary to popular beliefs, commoners were allowed to wear sword in medieval Japan. And it was relatively common. They wore mostly Daisho or Wakizashi.
What they were not allowed to wear however is Katanas who were reserved for Samurai. So yes, sword bearing Ashigaru weren't uncommon.

And yes, lance is technically incorect. I wanted to say spears or pike. So yes yaris.

I do not know nearly enough about the battles you list but my guess the reason people discount very early battlefield artillery is that it was horribly immobile.

How was the case for it in these battles?

(Btw, there are a lot of battles where thete were no cannons and muskeetry was indispensible. Klushyno, for example? Decided by shock, but preparatory and enablimg work was musketry and infantry. But battles are like that, always, combined arms)

Battlefield artillery is definetly slow and that could be used advantagely by a clever and mobile ennemy. I believe it happened quite a few times during the 30 HYW notably.

A common thing in all the battle I cited tough, is that the side that had the cannons (Ottoman/Mughals) could afford a defensive stance even tough they were the invaders since their cannons outranged any ranged units the other side could bring.

What is interesting is that those various generals opted for an aggressive charge to win the battle. Usually the cavalry do manage to break the infantry but then get slaughtered by the cannons behind.

Interesingly, this is also what the Polish commander choose to do while waiting for his cannons in Klushyno: Charge the ennemy with the cavalry.
By the way, That battle had cannons on both side so I am afraid the argument is not very convincing. Also both side had musketteer so how can you be so sure that it was "indispensible". Apart from the obvious well more men is always better arguement?

And it was the Hussars who won the day for Poland. If musketeer were the decisive factor, then Russia should have won that battle as they had more of them on top of having more cannons. So definetly a lose for gunpowder here.

No, contrary to this battle, the ones I provided had all of them with one side having no gunpowder units whatsoever. And all those place in the XV and early XVIth century with early gunpowdery. So far more pertinent exemples in assessing how late medieval units fared against early modern armies. And well the gunpowder armies won obviously. Quite decisively so I might add.
But that's not because of their handcannons. Or the other side only having archers. That much is pretty obvious.
Even that early, Artillery was deadly when used properly. According to the sources, Ottomans guns slaughtered thousands of Persians cavaliers at Chaldiran. Not a bad ratio for the dozen batteries or so deployed in this battle. How many Arquebusiers, or heck Archers, can brag to possess such a kill streak in a single battle?

And this is why I said it's Artillery that killed foot Archery not handcannons. No foot ranger could compete with the power or range of Artillery. And certainy not Arquebuses who were notoriously inefficient past the 50 meters range.
 
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Google Nomad olympics.

Are these the best modern athletes? None of them hit the center of the target.
Unlike them, ordinary horse archers of the XVII century easily hit the target: it was an arrow placed vertically on the ground. A case is described when an archer hit the first arrow fired along the arc trajectory by the second arrow. That is, the second arrow shot down a flying arrow. But not everyone succeeded, but it turned out to make this shot well-aimed.
Secondly, medieval bows are not modern sporting bows. It takes a lot of physical strength to pull them.
 
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The only thing the gun really has going for it over the bow is its lethality. But if your arrows are poisoned, even that advantage is nullified.

Did I say there were as lethal? I am saying the lethality of poisoned arrows is greater than common arrows.

To reiterate: when considering to adopt any technology, you weigh the benefits & costs.

Early guns have the advantage of lethality & less training, bows have the advantage of speed and accuracy.

Adopting guns gives you a lethality advantage over using bows. If that difference is significant enough, then it may be worth the cost of giving up speed and accuracy.

But that gun advantage in lethality is not nearly as great when the alternative of poisonous arrows is available.



I don't know. Maybe Detroit?
Nullified doesn't say 'nearly as great' to me, it says to me they are AS lethal. The lethality of a weapon that EVERY opposing male can be armoured against seems to me quite dubious, and suggests to me the lethality advantage of guns is quite massive.
 
Nullified doesn't say 'nearly as great' to me, it says to me they are AS lethal. The lethality of a weapon that EVERY opposing male can be armoured against seems to me quite dubious, and suggests to me the lethality advantage of guns is quite massive.

It is a manner of speech. If you want to interpret that as a 100%, fine.

But what are you comparing exactly? They deliver different kinds of damage. A firearm shot has little penetration but enters you with blunt brute force which does wide tissue damage. That will pretty much stop you pretty quick because the damage goes beyond the exact bullethole, and will likely kill you. An arrow has more penetration, but doesn't stop nor kill you nearly as quick because the tissue damage is narrower, cutting through the wound but not wider than its entry. An arrow has to hit tthe right spot (vital organs and the like) to actually be as lethal. But if they don't, then you can keep going with your arrow injury. This is the lethality advantage of firearms. A bullet that hits you is likelier to kill you than an arrow that hits you.

But a poisoned arrow improves upon a regular arrow by introducing poison that will immobilize you very quickly once it enters your bloodstream, even if it still doesn't cause wide damage and takes longer (sometimes hours) to actually kill you. Quick immobilization is as good as lethality, without necessarily being lethal itself.

That is why poison is so favored by hunters. You can shoot a big animal, even with a gun, and not kill him. And spend the rest of your day chasing after the wounded animal. Hit it with a poisoned arrow, and he's going down quick, regardless of how well you hit him.
 
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It is a manner of speech. If you want to interpret that as a 100%, fine.

But what are you comparing exactly? They deliver different kinds of damage. A firearm shot has little penetration but enters you with blunt brute force which does wide tissue damage. That will pretty much stop you pretty quick because the damage goes beyond the exact bullethole, and will likely kill you. An arrow has more penetration, but doesn't stop nor kill you nearly as quick because the tissue damage is narrower, cutting through the wound but not wider than its entry. An arrow has to hit tthe right spot (vital organs and the like) to actually be as lethal. But if they don't, then you can keep going with your arrow injury. This is the lethality advantage of firearms. A bullet that hits you is likelier to kill you than an arrow that hits you.
yea thats not how any of that works.

the vast majority of damage is done directly by the projectile.

The vast majority of deaths to gunshot wounds also ultimately die of blodloss. Quick incapacitation only happens with hits to the nerve system or large arteries/heart.
Usually the immediate incapacitation is psychological far more than physical.

The lethality isnt really much different between a bullet and an arrow if we assume no armour and if broadheads are used an arrow probably has the edge.
 
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Okay, I need to nitpick something real quick here. The OP mentioned nothing about guns at all - I was the one who first brought them up. The OP said that the tradition of archery declined because "the absence of wars, the growth of population, and the growth of wealth" led to the "depletion of game, the destruction of forests", implying that those factors were why traditions of archery died out.

My response was meant to say that, yes, those factors ended widespread use of archery, but it was because they led to technological advancements, and I used guns as an example. Both artillery and crossbows back up my point here - they could be used to replace bows and were easier to use, and that's why bow usage died out.
 
Okay, I need to nitpick something real quick here. The OP mentioned nothing about guns at all - I was the one who first brought them up. The OP said that the tradition of archery declined because "the absence of wars, the growth of population, and the growth of wealth" led to the "depletion of game, the destruction of forests", implying that those factors were why traditions of archery died out.

My response was meant to say that, yes, those factors ended widespread use of archery, but it was because they led to technological advancements, and I used guns as an example. Both artillery and crossbows back up my point here - they could be used to replace bows and were easier to use, and that's why bow usage died out.
The english archer tradition was directly linked to the military usefullnes of longbows and squarely aimed at creating as many longbowmen as possible with as high drawweights as possible.
The moment a berrer missile weapon was available (guns) the tradition collapsed.
 
Okay, I need to nitpick something real quick here. The OP mentioned nothing about guns at all - I was the one who first brought them up. The OP said that the tradition of archery declined because "the absence of wars, the growth of population, and the growth of wealth" led to the "depletion of game, the destruction of forests", implying that those factors were why traditions of archery died out.

My response was meant to say that, yes, those factors ended widespread use of archery, but it was because they led to technological advancements, and I used guns as an example. Both artillery and crossbows back up my point here - they could be used to replace bows and were easier to use, and that's why bow usage died out.

You're right. My memory is shot. My mind must have conflated the series of initial posts, and mixed in further points made in some later posts.

So "the OP" in my mind is now a composite character, or folk figure.

The Folk OP has taken on a life and thesis of his own. :)
 
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Okay, I need to nitpick something real quick here. The OP mentioned nothing about guns at all - I was the one who first brought them up. The OP said that the tradition of archery declined because "the absence of wars, the growth of population, and the growth of wealth" led to the "depletion of game, the destruction of forests", implying that those factors were why traditions of archery died out.

My response was meant to say that, yes, those factors ended widespread use of archery, but it was because they led to technological advancements, and I used guns as an example. Both artillery and crossbows back up my point here - they could be used to replace bows and were easier to use, and that's why bow usage died out.
Your first time here?

You should be glad we have not started debating best WW II tank and finished with importance of archery in Finnish Winter War.
 
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yea thats not how any of that works.

the vast majority of damage is done directly by the projectile.

The vast majority of deaths to gunshot wounds also ultimately die of blodloss. Quick incapacitation only happens with hits to the nerve system or large arteries/heart.
Usually the immediate incapacitation is psychological far more than physical.

The lethality isnt really much different between a bullet and an arrow if we assume no armour and if broadheads are used an arrow probably has the edge.
These people were seemingly looking at light and fast bullets/shards, no? Not blunt lead balls, which is what arrows were mostly up against. All the arguments about accuracy and speed of attack kinda flip if we look at modern 'light and fast bullet' guns.
 
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Light hunting bows took a fair amount of practice to become proficient in their use, but a high draw-weight military bow required a lifetime of dedication which had to be legally enforced. If you have to start at age 3-5 and practice several hours every week or even daily for the next decade-plus, that means several less man-hours of work being done each week for the entire productive life of the bowman, and years to replace a combat loss.

Firearms meant a monumental decrease in the length of training before you became "useful" on the battlefield, as well as significantly less time spent each week to maintain one's skills.

As pointed out, bows were only reasonably effective against lightly armored targets (good luck hitting that eye slot at 50 yards while the target is in motion), while firearms were effective against all but the heaviest armor. Bows were also better suited for individual engagements and skirmishing, relatively inaccurate and slow-firing firearms for massed formation battles. As firearms developed further, they supplanted bows in one role after another, eventually replacing them completely. The move to firearms was rapid in most places, but rarely a complete change-over for a generation or more, possibly because retaining the existing bowmen was a better option than converting them to gunners, but training new gunners RIGHT NOW was better than the prospect of training new bowmen in another decade. The necessary change-over to tactics suited for firearms also required acceptance from the military leadership, potentially threatening the existing order.

The introduction of cannons didn't just replace bows, it gradually replaced a significant portion of ALL foot troops and redefined their roles, with those roles steadily being relegated to supporting and protecting the artillery, rather than the reverse.
 
The lethality isnt really much different between a bullet and an arrow if we assume no armour and if broadheads are used an arrow probably has the edge.
During the siege of Ulsan, 10k Japanese soldiers gave most their food to their 1k arquebusiers, who then held off 50k combined Ming and Joseon soldiers, who already captured the outer wall and food supply.

The loss of the attacking side was probably over 10k in just 3 weeks. They made repeated assaults and failed again and again. The defenders were actually caught unprepared, retreated into inner wall in a hurry, lost most supplies and many of them started starving to death - most didn't survive and the on the day their small reinforcement arrived the surviving defenders could barely stand.

That's not something archery or crossbow could achieve. And everyone had armor and / or shields of some sort. And they clearly valued firearms so much that they'd rather sacrifice all the rest of soldiers, which probably included samurai class (who didn't train in firearms).
 
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China has completely switched to crossbows. This also explains why China could not invade the steppes.
I mean, they kind of did that one time after finally getting fed up with all of the raids and invasions.