Are Assembly and Syndicate T1 starting armies just too weak?

[The Founder]

While all T1 without upgrades are pretty weak in general, I notice a clear tendency of Assembly (Scavenger) and Syndicate (Indentured) starting armies to take losses or near losses in sure fights. And I think it goes down to teh T1 unit being weak or having the wrong support.

Vanguard Troopers got a Repeating 7 range with Overwatch and a once-per-combat grenade. And are supported by Robodogs with 3 active abilities.

Amazons have only 5 range (6 with cover) and no overwatch, but a 5 range, re-useable, anti-air capable grenade (Flash arrow). And are supported by biomancers, wich have 3 actives and a usefulle attack.

Kirko Units have repeating Melee, a reuseable grenade (also works on air) and are supported by teh Transcendent (decent Attack, the damage redirection and heal). They also got swarmshields and quick regeneration out of combat.

Dvar can make their own cover and got a support with 2 Actives and a usefull attack. Only thing they lack is repeating attacks and grenades, but that is more of a playstyle choice.

Meanwhile those two:
The Scavengers got a on attack livesteal. that does not work on 90% of all targets. So they got a repeating melee attack and a near useless ranged one. So cleary a rush faction? Yet their support consiest of a sniper without agile overwatch and no support unit with heal. You know the stuff they would need.

Syndicate Indetured got a 7 range Rifle with Overwatch. They also have a near useless single-attack stagger on a cooldown.
And their support has 1 ranged heal and 1 active ability that only works on them - and has melee range, putting the caster into massive danger. Honestly, if I put in an extra indentured in instead would get the same extra action every turn, more HP and more consistent Damage - at a lower cost.

 

[Nussor]

Indentured get lots of specific buffs, if you specialize them they will easily outperform most other T1 units. I actually find the Dvar particularly weak. They accomplish very little if you don't spec them for cover destruction as their primary attack is pretty weaksauce.

 

[grandad1982]

What do you mean that life steal doesn't work on 90% of targets? It works on loads of targets.

 

[The Founder]

Indentured get lots of specific buffs, if you specialize them they will easily outperform most other T1 units.

It does not help that they got a lot of lategame buffs, if I can not win easy fights with them early game and thus never get to the late game.

Also, those buffs are not specific. They are limited to "Indentured only".

What do you mean that life steal doesn't work on 90% of targets? It works on loads of targets.

Unless it is a mineral or etheral unit. Wich are not uncommon at all.

And it does not mater, if the enemy is too far away to even reach them.
Or they kill you before you even get into range, at wich point you can not restore HP.

I actually find the Dvar particularly weak. They accomplish very little if you don't spec them for cover destruction as their primary attack is pretty weaksauce.

Dvar have 2 issues:
- they are a standoff army without sniper or other longrange to draw the enemy in
- they only got single-attacks, but no abilities like charge or skitter to making moving worthwhile.
Still, once you got improoved trenches (wich are T1 technology) trenchers easily outlast any enemy.

They need some getting used to, but I can work with them. I play them like a "half rush" army. Rush into short range, entrench, blow them to bits.

 

[Frank327]

Syndicate have a T2 sniper and T1 units with 7 range overwatch. I'm missing the part where this is a weak setup.

Your 3 overwatch units move the overwatch line forward while the 2 snipers get into position. Your support can make an indentured immune if he gets focused and turn overdrive on to finish the fight.

 

[nosepose9x]

The assembly scout unit heals. Make use of that, take advantage of melee Overwatch to counterattack them, use shotgun if you can't get in range that turn.

As far as syndicate, I dunno man, you might lose an indentured or two but once you get mods and understand overseer you're gonna tear everything apart with those babies.

 

[steinernein]

I auto resolve on normal with Assembly and rarely take losses compared to Vanguard where I have to have extra units in an assisting stack. Seems fine to be honest.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Are you auto-resolving or manually resolving fights? With the syndicate, you need to approach things completely different from other factions. A lot of the indentured power comes from the overseer's cerebral override power. It lets you advance very far forward and get a repeating flanking shot (or their 3 range power shot) on most enemies if done correctly, in addition to making it impossible for the indentured to die on the next turn. Even without mods that's extremely strong, you can take a lot of actions that would otherwise be extremely high risk.

A lack of AoE is the real weakness of the syndicate, which shouldn't be an issue during the early game.

 

[LemurFromTheId]

Whether or not this is true, I don't see why it's a problem. The factions don't need to be (and, in fact, shouldn't be, if you ask me) equal to each other tier-per-tier. If Tier X of faction Y is that faction's weakness, so be it. They have their strengths, too.

 

[Eji1700]

I rarely if ever lose syndicate starting units and they're in my opinion one of the best starting armies. The overseer should basically be spamming double move the moment the opponent is in range as it allows you to just wipe out enemies before they get a chance to attack, or to run up and shotgun someone out of cover so the rest of the team can wipe them out. Other than that remember the overseer heal can be used on any of them.

I'll often build a single indentured to round out the army and let the scout split off (which is also an ok tank and great flanker) but then i start on the second army. If they're dying by the droves you're doing something wrong. Maybe throw it on autocombat for a few rounds and see how the AI handles it? It's not perfect but it certainly doesn't throw them away.

 

[The Founder]

Syndicate have a T2 sniper and T1 units with 7 range overwatch. I'm missing the part where this is a weak setup.

You do not start with a Sniper. Not only do you do not start with it, it is at least 2 reseraches in.
A T2 unit I have to researchs is not part of the "starting army" for me. That is part of the midgame army I build.
And I already try to compensate for it using the Leader Sniper, it just is not nearly enough.

The assembly scout unit heals.

If I need to keep my scout in the starter army to fight, rather then go and scout with it, that is the definition of "the starter army is weak".

Your 3 overwatch units move the overwatch line forward while the 2 snipers get into position.

Wich does not mater if the firing arcs are limited because of foiliage or me fighting uphill.

The Vanguard and Amazons got their indirect AoE's for this.
Dvar just make their cover where they want, creating roadblocks out of trenchers.
Kirko want into melee anyway and only have to worry about being bottlenecked. Painsharing, swarmshield and heal take care of any dangerous positions.

Your support can make an indentured immune if he gets focused and turn overdrive on to finish the fight.

I am sorry, but this support is plain weak.
It has one ranged heal, wich is pretty normal.
And one Buff that only works on one specific unit and is melee range. It has no enemy debuffs. No general buffs. And it's attack is nothing special either.

Again: if I had another indentured instead of it, I would propably end up being ahead both in actions and Hitpoints. That is how weak this one is, a T1 Core unit would be about the same value.

Whether or not this is true, I don't see why it's a problem. The factions don't need to be (and, in fact, shouldn't be, if you ask me) equal to each other tier-per-tier.

This is your starting army. This is what you do all scouting and early killing with. If it underperforms, that has snoballing effects down the line. Unless they are specifically designed with catchup mechanisms (and even then mostly), that is a fudamental rule of 4x games.

We had those discussions over on the Stellaris Forums back when Missiles, Lasers and Kinetics were a starting weapon. Some (missiles) just were useless as a starting choice. With laser and Kinetik being variably usefull. In the end, different starting weapons got removed and everyone got the same basic weapons tech.

Syndicate and Assembly seem to be the missile of Factions here. So utterly useless early game, they are not worth picking.

A lot of the indentured power comes from the overseer's cerebral override power. It lets you advance very far forward and get a repeating flanking shot (or their 3 range power shot) on most enemies if done correctly, in addition to making it impossible for the indentured to die on the next turn.

This is certainly a intention - the Flanking module and Flanking related Operations make it obvious that Flanking is supposed to be your game.

But using this technique puts the support into a vulnerable position - just out of cover where the Indentured used to be. And that asumes I even put them in the right position to begin with.

 

[Eji1700]

I am sorry, but this support is plain weak.
It has one ranged heal, wich is pretty normal.
And one Buff that only works on one specific unit and is melee range. It has no enemy debuffs. No general buffs. And it's attack is nothing special either.
.

You might want to experiment more because there's a tech in the synd tree that lets you make a whole slew of units indentured, and several of the secret tech units are indentured (purifiers).

Second, that "buff" is a full turn refresh which is one of the strongest possible buffs in the game. The ability to flank and shotgun, refresh, and triple fire, or just take 6 shots at a flyer, and then ALSO make that unit unkillable for the next turn, is stupid strong. Your dismissal of this buff leads me to believe that's probably your issue. You should always be using this if it's off cooldown and there's targets in range (t2 onward usually) and you can just rambo the unit you buff in if needed because it will not die next turn.

 

[nosepose9x]

Yeah, your overseer won't die because your indentured will push ahead of it. Go into position on turn 1, move ahead and fire with indentured, then refresh the indentured and fire again, then move other indentured up with Overwatch. You just keep taking ground. It's true that mods are when you'll really shine, so focus those early and say goodbye to your problems.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Yeah, your overseer won't die because your indentured will push ahead of it. Go into position on turn 1, move ahead and fire with indentured, then refresh the indentured and fire again, then move other indentured up with Overwatch. You just keep taking ground. It's true that mods are when you'll really shine, so focus those early and say goodbye to your problems.

The main thing is that the overseer doesn't have to move out of cover if you plan ahead that you're going to use override. Just move the unit that can't die ahead afterwards and you're fine.

The syndicate's first two military techs give mods that give +20% accuracy and a stacking -1 damage resistance condition to their indentured. They're the first two techs you're going to research anyway 90% of the time, so getting very powerful indentured in the first few turns is trivial. Heck, I'm still using mainly indentured with those two mods backed up by overseers as my primary damage dealers at round 30. I cleared a silver landmark with them taking no losses around round 15-20. They're still great in the mid game.

 

[The Founder]

You might want to experiment more because there's a tech in the synd tree that lets you make a whole slew of units indentured, and several of the secret tech units are indentured (purifiers).

Neural Control collars. Requires capturing a colony of another species, so again: Way past the "Starting Army" part and to luck dependant to ever depend on.

Second, that "buff" is a full turn refresh which is one of the strongest possible buffs in the game.

The Biomancer has access too:
1 Ranged Heal, that is 5 points stronger, purges slightly less
Scan every 2 turns, with -2 Resistances for a entery class of enemies.
Sleep every 2 turns

It does more damage to the enemy via scan and can take out low tier enemies reliably. Also supports Animal Mind control.

The PUG got:
Blur Cloud, a general buff
A Heal that is 5 points strong, does not purge but works on anything.
And a refresh for all cooldowns and "once per battle" abilities. For wich I really need "the" unit to target it with.
A attack that kicks like a Dvar Impaler.

The Transcendent got:
A 35% damage resistance buff that also transfer the damage
A ranged heal that is 5 Points stronger, does not purge, but works on anything non-mechanical. If they took the damage via share pain, they can even just self-heal.
Nevermind the swarmshield and extra regeneration (both natural and mods) of the Kirko.

The overseer just does not compare to those.

 

[The Founder]

The syndicate's first two military techs give mods that give +20% accuracy and a stacking -1 damage resistance condition to their indentured. They're the first two techs you're going to research anyway 90% of the time, so getting very powerful indentured in the first few turns is trivial. Heck, I'm still using mainly indentured with those two mods backed up by overseers as my primary damage dealers at round 30. I cleared a silver landmark with them taking no losses. They're still great in the mid game.

If you got 1 or 2 mods, we are out of the starting army phase. And I never argued they had poor longterm performance. In that they are definitly okay.
This is about the army you got in the first few turns, where every loss stings horrible.

While all T1 without upgrades are pretty weak in general, I notice a clear tendency of Assembly (Scavenger) and Syndicate (Indentured) starting armies to take losses or near losses in sure fights

I also find in interesting that barely anyone arguend on the Assembly having a good starting army. I guess we more or less agree that a sniper on a rush army is a bad idea.
Assembly is persistently getting outgunned and can not heal off Psi-Fish or Quartzites.

 

[Eji1700]

Neural Control collars. Requires capturing a colony of another species, so again: Way past the "Starting Army" part and to luck dependant to ever depend on.


The Biomancer has access too:
1 Ranged Heal, that is 5 points stronger, purges slightly less
Scan every 2 turns, with -2 Resistances for a entery class of enemies.
Sleep every 2 turns

It does more damage to the enemy via scan and can take out low tier enemies reliably. Also supports Animal Mind control.

The PUG got:
Blur Cloud, a general buff
A Heal that is 5 points strong, does not purge but works on anything.
And a refresh for all cooldowns and "once per battle" abilities. For wich I really need "the" unit to target it with.
A attack that kicks like a Dvar Impaler.

The Transcendent got:
A 35% damage resistance buff that also transfer the damage
A ranged heal that is 5 Points stronger, does not purge, but works on anything non-mechanical. If they took the damage via share pain, they can even just self-heal.
Nevermind the swarmshield and extra regeneration (both natural and mods) of the Kirko.

The overseer just does not compare to those.

You can keep telling me what I already know, but I'm telling you that when I play the game, and when i watch others play the game, they don't lose indentured and in fact do quite well.

Every single ability you're listing is good, and yet I will always take a full turn refresh over any of those because a dead enemy is a lot more powerful than any of those buffs or debuffs, and that's what it should net you, and that is again ignoring the now immortal tank it makes. Further the overseer heal is not indentured only.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

If you got 1 or 2 mods, we are out of the starting army phase. And I never argued they had poor longterm performance. In that they are definitly okay.
This is about the army you got in the first few turns, where every loss stings horrible.

You're taking losses before round 4? How? What fights are you taking that would actually cost you indentured that you can take with the other races?

 

[DrBonez]

Also Overseers just being in the stack apply a 10% Crit chance buff for indentured. I think this might be a case of the Syndicate units are not in your wheel house and it happens. I suck with the DVAR units but Syndicate have clicked nicely. Only faction I'm still experimenting with is the Assembly, but so far Syndicate is looking to be my go to.

 

[Ethorin]

...I wasn't arguing about the Assembly because Assembly are awesome... unless you piss off the Psi-Fish which... I mean... why? Quartzite are the single rarest marauder type in my experience though I suppose yours was different... and of course, half the early game Quartzite do unfocused Arc Damage soooooo