Are Leviathans really worth it?

[roman566]

New ship class - leviathans, masters of death and destruction or maybe overrated and overpriced piece of junk?
I have noticed that badass leviathans have very few weapon mounts, sure you have dozens medium and heavy mounts, but what really matters are super heavy mounts for things like impactors or beams. If you don't believe me here is comparison of single Hiver leviathan and three dreadnaughts, they cost same amount of Command Points, see who has more firepower.
All dreadnaughts have Battle Bridge command section and Antimatter Engine section, mission sections are as follow - Impactor, Heavy Missile and Battle Rider Carrier

Leviathan
Light: 0
Medium: 44
Heavy: 15
Very Heavy: 15
Super Heavy: 7
IOBM Super Heavy: 8
Destroyer Rider Very Heavy: 12

Now dreadnaughts
Light: 3x 2 (engine section) + 9 (Battle Rider Carrier) + 3 (impactor) + 3 (heavy missile) = 21
Medium: 3x 12 (command section) + 12 (Battle Rider Carrier) = 48
Heavy: 3x 3 (command section) + 3 (impactor) + 3x 4 (engine section) = 27
Very Heavy (beam) : 3x 4 (command section) = 12
Super Heavy(impactor) : 6
Polaris Very Heavy : 3
IOBM Super Heavy: 7
Destroyer Rider Very Heavy: 9

Edit (something cut this during posting)
Not so bad... until you take into account that I tried to match leviathan weapons using three different dreadnaughts, if I used 3 impactors I would have 18 impactors in dreadnaughts vs 7 in leviathan, same goes for missiles, beams or battle riders - 3 specialized dreadnaughts have more firepower than single leviathan. Leviathan isn't even 'jack-of-all-trades' as dreadnaughts can use specialized command sections like Absorber or Electronic Warfare.
So why should I use leviathans as something else than CnC? Any ideas?

 

[Tavior]

Did you take into consideration that your LV can carry antimatter torpedoes battleriders? Escort battlerider for more small/medium?

Not to mention that Liir-Zuul faction can't use a carrier DN to carry a battleship (unique to Liir only). They use a carrier LV for that exclusive purpose.

I don't know if you noticed or not but a single LV has more command points for a fleet over an armada CNC DN? If you want to continue to use DN by all means do so. Just remember there is more than one way to accomplish the same goal in SotS 2.

 

[Ulzgoroth]

Are super heavy mounts single weapons? I had the idea that they were double at some point but I haven't checked that.

I'd note that if you used the carrier LV instead of the 'Leviathan' LV, you'd have a trio of carrier DNs beat for BR capacity (unless you're playing Tarka, IIRC.)

Liir, obviously, have a bit of a special case going.

Finally, you might want to compare survivability. I don't know how that balances out, but the LV certainly does have some advantages in that area.

Even more finally, I'd rate it as a very good thing if the game is set up so that trading three dreadnoughts for a leviathan is not always a win. Smaller ships should have their place.

 

[Tavior]

Are super heavy mounts single weapons? I had the idea that they were double at some point but I haven't checked that.

I have a game with Loa LV currently, all 4 versions unlocked. I can confirm that super heavy mount have two barrels for heavy combat laser line and impactor both.

 

[sobza]

And they not fixed mouted wepaons either.
To anserw the question. Yes LV are worth it. They can take a heaver beating. Have the second highest amount of CP just under the flagship. Pack a lot of fire power. They can not win a war alone but they do make it easy.

 

[roman566]

I have a game with Loa LV currently, all 4 versions unlocked. I can confirm that super heavy mount have two barrels for heavy combat laser line and impactor both.

So still 14 impactors vs 18 in dreadnaughts.
Survivability is similar, I didn't do the math but when I looked at it sum of 3 dreadnaughts armor and structure points is close to that of a single leviathan.
Other races have other leviathans, Lirr with their battleships is only leviathan I would actually consider, but it's limited to Liir and I play as Hivers...
I didn't take into account battleriders, in basic comparison leviathan has 3 more battleraiders than drednaughts so difference is very small. If I wanted BR fleet then 3 CnC leviathans definitely are better than 9 dreadnaughts. But they won't do anything else and I simply do not like BR as I have problems with commanding them.
And I did mention that ONLY use for leviathan is to use it as CnC ship that allows for larger fleet than dreadnaught CnC, as warships they rather suck.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I thought the biggest advantage was damage absorption offered from armor resistance.

http://sots2.rorschach.net/Tactical_Combat#Armor_and_Damage

I think that a LV shaves three levels of damage off all incoming attacks instead of just two for DNs.


Also remember that if they face off in battle the LV can direct most weapons at a single DN and quickly put it out of the fight, for the remained the LV only have to face two DNs while they still need to face it's full power.

 

[Ulzgoroth]

I thought the biggest advantage was damage absorption offered from armor resistance.

http://sots2.rorschach.net/Tactical_Combat#Armor_and_Damage

I think that a LV shaves three levels of damage off all incoming attacks instead of just two for DNs.


Also remember that if they face off in battle the LV can direct most weapons at a single DN and quickly put it out of the fight, for the remained the LV only have to face two DNs while they still need to face it's full power.

Yep, LVs have an extra damage reduction layer over dreadnoughts, which combined with enormous armor slabs is a pretty big deal, and even more so if you add on Adamantite Alloys and/or the Liir extra DR tech.

And also, yeah, one ship with the same HP as three ships is actually much more resilient than the three ships, because you don't lose it until you lose all of it.

So still 14 impactors vs 18 in dreadnaughts.

14 turreted impactors versus 18 dreadnought fixed mounts. Plus you get the 14 impactors and the heavy missiles and some battleriders all at once.

I didn't take into account battleriders, in basic comparison leviathan has 3 more battleraiders than drednaughts so difference is very small. If I wanted BR fleet then 3 CnC leviathans definitely are better than 9 dreadnaughts. But they won't do anything else and I simply do not like BR as I have problems with commanding them.

Well, you did include BRs in your first post, actually. So I was pointing out that the LV can win that comparison if you want it to.

 

[Tavior]

I think it is far better to look at the LV vs DN quandary as series of questions about your current game.

What weapons are your enemy using? Are they able to break 4 blue bar far too easy? Do you need to be in 3 places at once? Do it matter if you use fixed beam or turret beam? Are you having trouble keeping them in weapon range? Can you fit modules on LV for all your needs or do you need to use DN for more modules(Some DN don't have many module slots so take that into consideration)? Etc...

 

[Zaelot]

I am not an expert on SWII. Sometimes, in estrategy games in generall, 1 unit of, lets say ,3000 resistance (armor,HP etc), is better than 3 units with 1000. ¿Why?, because if you make 1500 damage (All numbers are just simple examples) , you dont destroy the big one, but you destroy one of the 3 small units. So with the big one you would dont get losses in the combat, and with the small ones you do.

The problem of big units is that, if there is CC in the game (Croud control), or some debuff, electronic warfare etc. its easier to "debuff" 1 unit and harder to debuff 3 units.

There are other pros and contras, but in the end, i think its just a question of tactics, what enemy you will encounter and what type of battle you will fight.

The fact that you are just comparing a LV with 3 DNs and discussing wich has more fire power, pros and contras, its a sample that its well balanced. There is no fun in a game that the bigger is better and overrun the smaller.

 

[roman566]

Ok, first of all I seem to make a mistake - Dreadnaught battle bridge has heavy beams mounted in very heavy slots while leviathans have 'normal' beams on very heavy slots, I don't know why it's made like this.
What does it mean? Well... 3 impactor dreadnaughts will have 12 HEAVY combat beams AND 18 impactors, single leviathan can have EITHER impactors OR heavy beams (or combination of those).
Yes, you can use modules to get additional beams...whole 5 beams in Hiver leviathan.
Add to this fact that Super heavy mounts cannot concentrate all fire on single ship - worst offenders are ships in front where only 3 turrets (out of 7) can engage and all beams so you either attack with beams and 3/7 impactors or 5/7 impactors and nothing else. Did I mention that all crucial weapons on those dreadnaughts are forward facing? No? Well, I say it now.

Some of you also point out that leviathans are more durable... so let's see - with adamantine alloys my leviathan has 12.240 armor and 30k structure, Battlebridge - impactor - antimatter dreadnaught has 5,6k armor and 8920 structure, 3 of those will have slightly more armor between them and less structure so I would say that they are equal in this.
Now main point 'leviathans are tougher' is that leviathan has all those points in single ship, yes that's true... if leviathan and 3 dreadnaughts were supposed to sit and take pounding to see who lasts longer leviathan WILL win, but purpose of warship is not to TAKE hits but to HIT BACK and my math shows that dreadnaughts are much better in that department. As old saying goes 'best defense is good offense', to put it simply - dreadnaughts will kill their target much faster than leviathan so their lesser durability might not even be an issue, if something can beat those dreadnaughts then definitely it will beat leviathan as it will lack means to kill such opponent and will only last a bit longer.

@Tavior - none, most of my enemies do not live long enough to use their weapons, Leviathan CNC and bunch of cruisers armed with Polaris Blast Missiles kill everything before it can fire back. I want to build some heavier fleet in case some AI will actually be a challenge. I take more damage from anti-missiles hitting friendly ships than from enemy fire.

@Ulzgoroth - I was comparing 'leviathan' class leviathan with dreadnaughts, 'carrier' class leviathan does have more BR and missiles by heaving less of everything else, so my point of 'dreadnaughts have more firepower' stands.

 

[Ulzgoroth]

Ok, first of all I seem to make a mistake - Dreadnaught battle bridge has heavy beams mounted in very heavy slots while leviathans have 'normal' beams on very heavy slots, I don't know why it's made like this.

Are you aware that LV Very Heavy slots are triple-mount turrets for heavy weapons? I'd say a triple HEAP Heavy Driver is worth more than a Lancer mount.

Some of you also point out that leviathans are more durable... so let's see - with adamantine alloys my leviathan has 12.240 armor and 30k structure, Battlebridge - impactor - antimatter dreadnaught has 5,6k armor and 8920 structure, 3 of those will have slightly more armor between them and less structure so I would say that they are equal in this.
Now main point 'leviathans are tougher' is that leviathan has all those points in single ship, yes that's true... if leviathan and 3 dreadnaughts were supposed to sit and take pounding to see who lasts longer leviathan WILL win, but purpose of warship is not to TAKE hits but to HIT BACK and my math shows that dreadnaughts are much better in that department. As old saying goes 'best defense is good offense', to put it simply - dreadnaughts will kill their target much faster than leviathan so their lesser durability might not even be an issue, if something can beat those dreadnaughts then definitely it will beat leviathan as it will lack means to kill such opponent and will only last a bit longer.

Offense is certainly advantageous, but it isn't everything, and you've got to be careful about assumptions on how effective untested weapons will be in combat.

Also, don't overlook that extra armor layer! A leviathan is immune to RF and MIRV missiles, and to full-size missiles if it has adamantite. (At least according to the base templates, I don't know what warhead upgrades actually do.) It's not so impressive against AP ballistic weapons, but it makes a serious dent in a lot of energy weapon damage patterns.

@Tavior - none, most of my enemies do not live long enough to use their weapons, Leviathan CNC and bunch of cruisers armed with Polaris Blast Missiles kill everything before it can fire back. I want to build some heavier fleet in case some AI will actually be a challenge. I take more damage from anti-missiles hitting friendly ships than from enemy fire.

So all those impactors and fixed beams, you're never actually using them in combat? I'd limit my enthusiasm until I'd tried them. Dreadnought fixed weapons have the rather serious problem that you have to bring an entire dreadnought to bear on the enemy to shoot them. Most DNs are not exactly nimble.

@Ulzgoroth - I was comparing 'leviathan' class leviathan with dreadnaughts, 'carrier' class leviathan does have more BR and missiles by heaving less of everything else, so my point of 'dreadnaughts have more firepower' stands.

You made claims which the carrier invalidates. Perhaps your greater point still stands.

 

[Tavior]

I made that question aimed at everyone in here not just you. Roman566.

I am assuming you are using phalanx PD? Those have a nasty habitat of firing in the predicted missile path and right into the missile's target as opposite the missile it self. Same could be said for most direct fire PD to be honest. I find that medium size weapon instant energy beam don't have this problem. Some example are beamer, phaser, and sadly ballistic don't have anything that have a reliable chance of hitting in close proximity.

Sound like you are facing mostly cruiser if they are dying very easy against a LV long range missile + polaris missile. I would assume that in a theoretical prefect smart AI would not fall victim to the same tactic you are employing now. So I would not count on the same tactic to work after a year of patching AI. I am sure the players in multiplayer are capable of finding a way to work around LV tactic you are using. I know you are not playing in multiplayer, just something to think about.