Are the nomads too OP? (AI Nomads)

[lunelune2413]

This is the Cuman AI just after 40 years. They were also around 60% winning to tributary CB the Byzantines, which only ended after the Byzantines had a civil war end

I know it's an age old Paradox tradition to make broken things from the start. But please, Paradox...Nerf nomads stability, dominance, Herd income or even the offer tributary values. Just something to keep the AI from snowballing like this as fast as it does


EDITED OUT THE PLAYER DOING THIS AS THE FIRST PART OF THE POST. I think people don't get what I am primarily complaining about due to the first part being about that a player managed to do crazy expanding. My complain is mainly the AI....
(I still think this game is way too easy compared to CK2 ever was, but that is not my complaint here)
Player one is in attachments. Done within 30-40 years

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Paradox made an achievement for conquering the world as them, so fair to say theyre op

 

[lunelune2413]

Very quick update....So THAT happened through a war where the nomads outnumbered the Persians 2 to 1
Not even 100 into the game and they're the strongest and most stable empire in the world

 

[apollo1989vieten]

If the Umayyad Khazar wars happened in game now, I suspect the ai Khazars could possibly stomp the ai Umayyads. Maybe conquest or tributaries outside the great steppe should stopped unless you have the GOAT khan trait or are descended from the GOAT khan.

 

[PAnZuRiEL]

But AI Byzantium has stopped blobbing into the steppe, right?

 

[Djyc21215]

You can blob with any form of government within 30-40 years. Anything is OP in this game in the players hands.

 

[edward1997]

In my short experience with the DLC, is that the AI nomads are anything but stable. Powerful sure, but after a few decades they start to fight internally all the time.

 

[Metz]

As Temujin you are basically gifted the Mongol Empire with thousands of troops, gold, and herd if you get a certain amount of tributaries within your area.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

As Temujin you are basically gifted the Mongol Empire with thousands of troops, gold, and herd if you get a certain amount of tributaries within your area.

Getting trebuchet event troops when starting in 867 was fun on a previous patch

 

[lunelune2413]

You can blob with any form of government within 30-40 years. Anything is OP in this game in the players hands.

Yeah, I know and get that.
But it's the AI that did all the Cuman stuff within 50 years. Not a player min-maxing it to hell.

 

[WTH666444]

Yeah, I know and get that.
But it's the AI that did all the Cuman stuff within 50 years. Not a player min-maxing it to hell.

With conqueror enabled?
I‘ve seen AI tribal hordes (Khazaria, specifically; longshot since so many people in the Steppe have their traits randomised) pre-1.16 do much worse with that cheat-code of a trait.

 

[Delterius]

The nomads were the original OP government in CK2 so I'm not surprised they might be broken. Sure, Merchant Republics were broken too but they did take some investment to get going, nomads were just yolo from day1. That said, its kinda nice that AI Cumans are proactive like this.

 

[lunelune2413]

With conqueror enabled?
I‘ve seen AI tribal hordes (Khazaria, specifically; longshot since so many people in the Steppe have their traits randomised) pre-1.16 do much worse with that cheat-code of a trait.

Yep, but the Cumans never had a conqueror in those 50 years.
These are strictly tributaries

 

[Bisonmask]

Your edit explains why you're getting so many disagrees, yeah they are too strong right now. I think the issue is higher dominance gives too many free cbs that result in stable vassals that won't revolt (granted land or cowed by dread). By the time peace treaties are up/succession happens the main herd is insanely large which means a massive army which means conqueror trait which means no revolts

So nomads trend toward large sizes in the Western steppe (where there are a bunch of weak states to prey on) but instead of large tributary networks and loosely controlled direct vassals you get a stable engine that produces an army that grows the engine and the player has to break the blob every time

Anecdotally though I just saw a starting viking conquer all of Scandinavia and mainland Europe from the Pyrenees to Bulgaria including all of the Karling lands in a single lifetime while the Khazars struggled to subject all of the Rus in the same period so I don't think they're overly busted when it comes to tributary wars

 

[viola]

Yep, but the Cumans never had a conqueror in those 50 years.
These are strictly tributaries

I'm sorry, what's the problem here?

These are tributaries, it's the Cumans forcing the Seljuks and Byzantines into paying up tribute.
It's not conquest or vassalization, it's a kind of relationship where the settled nations could stop paying tribute as soon as they build up their strength again, it just looks funky on the map and can get weird if the Byzantines start getting called into the Cumans' wars or the Cumans come to defend the Byzantines if someone attack them, but aside from that I really don't think it should be weird that a large Nomadic realm can force even huge empires into paying tributes to them for some years.

That's, like, actual real history.

 

[Slime99]

I think a big part of the problem stems from the fact that Cumans are united into a single realm when in reality they were not.

 

[lunelune2413]

I'm sorry, what's the problem here?

These are tributaries, it's the Cumans forcing the Seljuks and Byzantines into paying up tribute.
It's not conquest or vassalization, it's a kind of relationship where the settled nations could stop paying tribute as soon as they build up their strength again, it just looks funky on the map and can get weird if the Byzantines start getting called into the Cumans' wars or the Cumans come to defend the Byzantines if someone attack them, but aside from that I really don't think it should be weird that a large Nomadic realm can force even huge empires into paying tributes to them for some years.

That's, like, actual real history.

I just feel that it's a bit too fast for this to happen
The duchies and kingdoms next to them become tribute states rather willingly (Because the nomad next to them is strong. I know) and the fact they can make entire empires into tributaries within half a century is just...Too fast? With how massive the Cuman armies are (2 times larger than the strongest empires), I also can't see the empires break free millitarily as the Nomads will just accumulate herd, gold and prestige and get bigger and bigger whilst the empire suffers.

I loved seeing the confederacies pop up and the utter chaos that the steppes are in with the tributaries of smaller clans constantly forming and breaking. But seeing the Seljuks AND Byzantines becoming tributaries seems scary to me because the Cumans seemingly are eerily stable

 

[Delterius]

But seeing the Seljuks AND Byzantines becoming tributaries seems scary to me because the Cumans seemingly are eerily stable

I suppose this leaves us with the two key issues here. Does netting two major tributaries mean a nomadic realm will never face an unstable succession? And how often does this happen in the startdates with large nomadic realms at game start? I am not in a position to test either issue.

 

[Scyobi_Empire]

i’m having the opposite, the nomads across the world are weak and get pushed around easily by landed rulers

 

[aadf97799c]

wonder how difficult is herding nomad vassal are with a bigger realm