• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Kaiser Bill

Colonel
64 Badges
Jul 8, 2002
1.080
28
  • 500k Club
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • War of the Roses
  • Magicka
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Dungeonland
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Chaps,

I know there is still a great deal of more important work to be done with the tech and the OBs, but we need to seriously reduce the effectiveness of armoured cruisers in all areas. These ships were pretty awful. The famously nick-named Live bait squadron lost all three vessels to a single German U-boat (U-9) in one morning. Three before breakfast as it were.

At Jutland the British lost several more (4 off the top of my head I think). despite having heavier guns, they were outdated vessels, with second rate crews, poor range finders, very weak deck armour, the same below the waterline... the list of problems goes on...

I suggest that they have very poor numbers to reflect this evident weakness, especially in defence scores. They were also very, very, very slow making them easy to hit.
 
Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy? I think those are the ones you're referring to - one particular sailor was aboard the first vessel when it sunk and subsequently was rescued by the second one, which was also sunk, with the same person being rescued by the third vessel.....which was also sunk.

Seeing as units' attributes are being reviewed, we've got a decent opportunity to correct these problems.
 
That's a good point. We may want to consider making several bands of ships.
Band 1
Armored Cruisers
Pre-Dreadnought BBs
Torpedo Boats
Band 2
Modern Cruisers
Dreadnoughts
Modern Destroyers

The ships in band one should easily be able to defeat their counterparts in band two, while suffering little damage. Furthermore, they should be able to defeat somewhat higher level shjips as well. Perhaps the best way to achieve this is to double the stats of band two, and give these new numbers to band one. A dreadnought would have little challenge mopping the floor with a pre-dreadnought.

Ideas?

Steele
 
It might be best to come up with some attributes for the first 'banding' of ships and then work with those for deciding what the next step up should be. The rule of thumb used at the time was the assumption that a Dreadnought could destroy two pre-Dreadnoughts - we ought to keep in mind that the pre-Dreadnoughts we have in our mod is a very broad term used to describe ships commissioned as far apart as between the 1880s and 1907. Therefore, what the stats for a 'pre-Dreadnought' should be is very much open to question.
 
Actually, Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy are already listed as cruisers type 0, not type 2 - so their statistics should be pretty low already. If not, we need to reduce the strengths of the type 0 ships...
 
I was using 2x just for the sake of argument. The exact numbers, as with everything else, will need to be ground out of hours of play-testing.

Does the idea itself seem acceptable, though? That there would be bands, or groups of ships, which would all be very differently-abled from their corresponding ships in another band.

Steele
 
Actually, it sounds like what HoI already has, except more so.

Currently, a Cruiser/0 has speed 22, seaattack 5 and seadefence 5.
A Cruiser/1 has speed 25, seaattack 8 and seadefence 10.
A Cruiser/2 has speed 27, seaattack 10 and seadefence 12.

And so on. I'm sure that we went into more details of what each model's value should be months ago - I suppose it's one of those things that we all talked about but nobody actually sat down to do the coding, maybe assuming somebody else had... :(
 
StephenT said:
Actually, Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy are already listed as cruisers type 0, not type 2 - so their statistics should be pretty low already. If not, we need to reduce the strengths of the type 0 ships...

Stephen, would it be possible for you to assess and look after all the units in the mod? Many need to be given attributes just to begin with, let alone those that can be obtained by tech advancements. So in order to assess what Armoured Cruisers have, we need to know what Old and Light cruisers should be capable of - I think much the same can be said of all the units in the game. It's rather a bit like dominos: once one type of unit is altered, then the other types of that unit have to, and once they are, other units have to be changed accordingly, so that one type of unit doesn't become overly powerful or useful.

I know you've already done something like this for airships, but could you possibly do it for infantry, cavalry, guards, marines, mountain troops, battleships, cruisers, destroyers, submarines, carriers and all aircraft as well? :eek: Because the mod currently runs on standard HOI statistics, it wouldn't be good enough to just change the attributes of one type of unit and leave the rest, because of the imbalance it may cause - therefore, everything really ought to be done at once. There's plenty to do - maybe too much to do - so I'm sure there would someone around willing to help out in that respect. :)
 
Allenby said:
The rule of thumb used at the time was the assumption that a Dreadnought could destroy two pre-Dreadnoughts

Erm, and the rest I suggest. The Germans nick-named their pre-dreadnoughts, which were among the most modern in the world, the five minute ships, for obvious reasons. I would advocate stats of no more than 1/3 the values of dreadnoughts. They really were worlds apart.
 
Kaiser Bill said:
Erm, and the rest I suggest. The Germans nick-named their pre-dreadnoughts, which were among the most modern in the world, the five minute ships, for obvious reasons. I would advocate stats of no more than 1/3 the values of dreadnoughts. They really were worlds apart.

....as the Pommern demonstrated at Jutland. In fact, even Dreadnought was rather outdated by 1916. More to consider when balancing up the types of ships then.
 
On ships and ship design

First off ships of this period should be notoriously vulnerable to torpedo hits whether they're dreadnoughts or destroyers. Not many ships had good torpedo defenses, the nets were virtually useless and could not be deployed past a certain speed and all had relatively poor compartmentalization.

The armoured cruisers and battlecruisers suffered so much because they were attempting to fulfill a task they were terribly unsuited for - slugging it out with big guns! Scharnhorst and Gneisenau of Von Spee weren't any better than Defense, Warrior or Black Prince when faced with Invincible and Inflexible yet would anyone say they were lesser warships?

Cruisers were designed and meant to a) show the flag, b) raid commerce c) protect commerce and d) reconnaisance en force NEVER to fight battle line actions.

Simply these ships, like all other weapons of war, were trumped when they came up to doing things they could not do well.

Relative to this, I was just thinking that for the tech trees we should develop along the main historical lines - gunnery, armour, propulsion, torpedoes and there will be advances that affect some ships and some which affect others, for instance advances in torpedoes would affect more the submarine or destroyer types. This would be the main differentiation between ships. I'm saying that perhaps we should think of ships as bare-hulls almost and whatever course your naval development has taken will determine what their strengths and weaknesses are. For instance Britain concentrated more on gunnery ("Gunnery, Gunnery, Gunnery, what else matters?") and to a lesser extent, speed hence their ships, particularly their battlecruisers were fast and well armed but not as well protected as the Germans who concentrated on torpedoes and protection. Reinhardt Scheer was a torpedo specialist hence his aggressive use of U-boat traps and torpedo boat attacks (I suspect Togo would be one too). This would mean that depending on the course you take, British and German or French or Italian or Russian ships would not be the same at all because one power would focus on one thing, another on a different thing. So from a base strength of X=attack Y=defense, the choices that your nation's naval thought will take (or have been made for you as of 1914) will determine your warship's strengths or weaknesses (a reason perhaps to have started the war a bit earlier?)

On scrapping destroyers and cruisers or post-1900 ships.

How about if instead of destroyers, we convert destroyers into a combined destroyer/light cruiser qualification under the name of the light cruiser or destroyer leader that was the flagship of the flotilla? Some cruisers were really designed as flotilla leaders and functioned as such like the British C's or the German Rostock and some large destroyers approximated light cruisers such as the late war Campbell or Scott classes.

Also, I guess I didn't notice it that much before, but under the main classes of battleship, cruiser, destroyer, etc. the sub-divisions w/c are grouped as classes of ship remain distinct right? I mean when you get to build battleship level 2 all your battleship level 1's don't automatically upgrade right? This is getting better all the time.

BTW I checked the doctrines and techs out and I was thinking, perhaps a FEW pre-1900 doctrines and techs should be available for the more 'undeveloped' countries? For instance coastal nations with small budgets should subscribe more to the so-called 'jeune ecole' w/c saw the development of light coastal forces and submarines instead of a true blue water fleet as well as coast defense battleships.

Will have a look at Britain and will give my two cents for whatever it's worth as soon as practicable. But it's looking great so far!

BTW, if I want to add events are there still event numbers available? Event numbers and leaders available? I'd like to try and work in some of the suggestions I posted if I can.

Best regards all,
Richmond
 
Subdivisions of ship classes

Okay don't laugh but as I played my Italy 1936 game I found out that there ARE different ship classes available for a single unit type depending on how much tech you know. Darn why didn't I think of that (or perhaps I did and forgot!)

Did you chaps provide like a real quick what has been changed from HoI to TGW? I mean of course nationalities, etc. but mainly for techs and units? Or where can I check out the tech tree?

Thanks,
Richmond
 
BTW how many levels can you make?

If you have a limited number of ship types but unlimited levels of ship classes under them then darn, that solves the whole thing. BBs can range from Monitor and Coast Defense ships to Next Generation Super Dreads and so on and so forth. Darn this is getting me worked up again.

Richmond
 
I am not sure if there is a limit, but I would strongly object to including such ships as coastal monitors and such. I think 4-5 of each ship type is about all we will need. Any more than that, and it will continue to grow exponentially more complex.

For the tech tree, just look in the mod file. Everything is in there (almost).

Steele
 
Hi Steele

Hope I'm not being a pest by pushing for weird things like more ship classes but, like I said elsewhere, part of the thrill of this period's naval history was the thought that it was a whole new world, that anything was possible, even battleships with seven turrets (Agincourt). I guess that such things were anomalies but I would like to have them exist if at all possible. I guess that's what perusing all these warship discussion boards does to you! Too many plausible what ifs.

Anyways I would like to differentiate if at all possible between certain ship types such as the Lord Nelsons (almost dreadnoughts), Deutchlands (pre-dreadnoughts yes but could take on dreadnought in most anything but speed), Kawachi (almost battlecruisers big guns but poor speed), Blucher (BC speed and comparable size but small guns) and the 'traditional' types of CAs and BCs. Also would have liked more differentiation between the multigun Super BB types such as the Japanese Fusos, Ises and British Agincourt, the fast BBs of which the QEs were the first, and regular Dreadnoughts of the four generations that appeared during the war - the Dreadnought/St Vincent/Bellerophon arrangement with wing turrets transitioning to the midship turretted Colossus and Neptune classes to the more traditional single midship turret and two turrets each fore and aft that started with Orion, to the two fore and two aft arrangement of the Royal Sovereigns. That's why I went for the many ship types, basically different speed and armour configurations.

Just take this as food for thought if nothing else. I guess at this time it's only complicating things.

Best regards,
Richmond
 
Richmond516 said:
BTW, if I want to add events are there still event numbers available? Event numbers and leaders available? I'd like to try and work in some of the suggestions I posted if I can.

There's an ID thread somewhere on this forum...

http://www.angelfire.com/ar3/dsw6000/progress.html - this progress page (it hasnt been updated for a little bit) has a list of events :)
 
check the metathread, there is a link to the ID page in my first post.
 
Is the mod going to have the penalty for fleets over 12 ships, which was in the 1.05c patch?
 
shell said:
Is the mod going to have the penalty for fleets over 12 ships, which was in the 1.05c patch?

As far as I know, that's a natural part of the game - so yes.