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You will still have to get the other player to do it, this will hurt their overall world standing if caught, and whatever other bad evil nasty tihngs it does, and perhaps you will turn on them right after, since it seemingly gives you a "real" claim on their thrones. I certanily would be quite hesitant to help anyone in this way...especially in a RPG type game.

EDIT- As to the Church...ick...just ick....Mario Puzzo made a pretty good lil novel about it in the 1300's I think..
 
Silly question: ;)

Ok so everyone hates you for even trying to, not to mention succeeding, in assassinating. But, shouldnt this be mainly when killing fellow christians..?

My idea, assassinate saladdin/ögudagu :D
The pope might find some difficulties in condemning that ;)
 
Damocles said:
I will try to explain myself.

We know as fact, from MrT's post, and corroborated by Harvard, that MrT was asked by Harvard to assassinate his wife because she was barren. MrT agreed to shoulder the consequences in return for a favor.

The above is 100% accurate.

My gripe is:

My, this seems abusive in an MP game. Since what historical ruler would really shop around for someone to take out his wife? Sure, some killed their wives, and some took the consequences of divorcing them and the drop in standing with the Church. Great. I don't think there should be cooperative assassinating of your buddy's family though. A purely MP concern.

Do you understand now? :/
Click to expand...

I have understood that to be your point that you are concerned that if assassination is consequence free (except in relation to the target of the assassination) that there will be a MP exploit. I agree with the concern.

But my point is that there does appear to be consequences - which are at the very least in the form of a Papal condemnation.

Plus, I think that it would be a valid kind of roleplay to ask someone to rid yourself of your barren wife. Its just that you would have to agree to return some "favour" in the future since there were consequences if the assassination plot is uncovered.

But you and I are really just tilting at windmills until we find out the full impact of those consequences. Only then could we have a meaningful discussion about whether an exploit truly exists.
 
Snall said:
You will still have to get the other player to do it, this will hurt their overall world standing if caught, and whatever other bad evil nasty tihngs it does, and perhaps you will turn on them right after, since it seemingly gives you a "real" claim on their thrones. I certanily would be quite hesitant to help anyone in this way...especially in a RPG type game.

EDIT- As to the Church...ick...just ick....Mario Puzzo made a pretty good lil novel about it in the 1300's I think..
Click to expand...

Good point. Havard, that crafty devil was just setting Mr.T up for a big fall. :D
 
Reinar Erlund said:
Silly question: ;)

Ok so everyone hates you for even trying to, not to mention succeeding, in assassinating. But, shouldnt this be mainly when killing fellow christians..?

My idea, assassinate saladdin/ögudagu :D
The pope might find some difficulties in condemning that ;)
Click to expand...

there's a practical issue, how to get close to Saladin to kill him?

most often the murders were set up, somewhere in the country side or were happening in the interior of the palace/castle at a non christian hour. Altogether not many candidates to pull off such a deal imho :)
 
crazy canuck said:
Good point. Havard, that crafty devil was just setting Mr.T up for a big fall. :D
Click to expand...

perhaps he was worried about future genes ;) nothing more, nothing less,
 
crazy canuck said:
I have understood that to be your point that you are concerned that if assassination is consequence free (except in relation to the target of the assassination) that there will be a MP exploit. I agree with the concern.

But my point is that there does appear to be consequences - which are at the very least in the form of a Papal condemnation.

Plus, I think that it would be a valid kind of roleplay to ask someone to rid yourself of your barren wife. Its just that you would have to agree to return some "favour" in the future since there were consequences if the assassination plot is uncovered.

But you and I are really just tilting at windmills until we find out the full impact of those consequences. Only then could we have a meaningful discussion about whether an exploit truly exists.
Click to expand...

Well, I never really thought it was consequence free. I just took from MrT's tone that there wasn't much of a consequence, to make it worth worrying about. SS tells me that there is, and MrT didn't mean to give that impression. So for now, I'll believe him.

As for a barren wife...It is my understanding that this was mostly taken care of by trying to divorce the woman and get her to voluntarily retire into a nunnery. There might be less of a consequence for assassinating someone, then forcing your wife to retire to a nunnery, thus making such OOC cooperation very possible, even likely.
 
Geez Damoclese. If I'd known anyone was going to go off half-cocked I would have subjected you to a suitably verbose "traditional MrT post" - but then that would rather have defeated the purpose, wouldn't it?

That you've based your assumptions on an off-hand remark meant to enterrain and drawn this elaborate conclusion about how pathetic the game is makes me wonder if you're any relation to Vizzini (The Princess Bride) for "truly, you have a dizzying intellect". ;)

Now where did I say that the act was without consequences?

*checks*

Hmm...it would appear, in fact, that I said nothing of the sort. How odd! :wacko:

At the risk of violating NDA, I can tell you that the action nearly bankrupted me, I was discovered (although successful in the attempt) which made me a parriah in the Christian world and unlikely to be able to arrange any future diplomatic liaisons with anyone other than a human player (since a human can over-ride the AI's diplomatic decision-making process). Further, the likelihood of me succeeding was mediocre, and would never have succeeded if Havard had been intent on preventing it rather than facilitating it.

Was it an exploit? Altruisticly...guilty as charged. Yep. You'd better lock Havard and I up for having engaged in a rather entertaining diversion during a game where I assassinated an aging wife (who would not produce an heir that he so desperately needed and would thus result in the game ending prematurely for him) in exchange for Havard dispatching my uncle (the King of Leon who also happened to be childless and for who's lands I happened to be the heir). This was also in a desperate attempt to expand our territories in order to put together the necessary forces to have even half a chance against the vast Almohad forces (who outnumbered us about 4:1 and had superior arms and armour). So it seemed like both a necessary and entertaining idea at the time...and we did it.

Abusing the game in such a dastardly fashion will undoubtedly result in my never being asked to join in one of your MP games, and will probably ensure that I will become an MP outcast altogether and will be forced to live out the rest of my days in morose emotional destitution. I guess I will just have to book a couple extra sessions with my shrink to have him help me get over this devastating blow, and to assist me in dealing with my latent leanings towards murder and God knows what. Hmmm...maybe I can get a better deal if Havard signs up with the same psychiastrist?

Note to self: I guess Havard and I shouldn't bother writing that AAR after all, and we should definitely do our very best not to enjoy playing MP (or SP) games any longer. After all, this is very serious stuff that could result in our becoming emotional cripples for the rest of our lives!
 
Spruce said:
there's a practical issue, how to get close to Saladin to kill him?

most often the murders were set up, somewhere in the country side or were happening in the interior of the palace/castle at a non christian hour. Altogether not many candidates to pull off such a deal imho :)
Click to expand...

Well, that muslim Assassin sect tried several times to take out Saladin, yet he eluded them every time.
 
MrT said:
Geez Damoclese. If I'd known anyone was going to go off half-cocked I would have subjected you to a suitably verbose "traditional MrT post" - but then that would rather have defeated the purpose, wouldn't it?

That you've based your assumptions on an off-hand remark meant to enterrain and drawn this elaborate conclusion about how pathetic the game is makes me wonder if you're any relation to Vizzini (The Princess Bride) for "truly, you have a dizzying intellect". ;)

Now where did I say that the act was without consequences?

*checks*

Hmm...it would appear, in fact, that I said nothing of the sort. How odd! :wacko:

At the risk of violating NDA, I can tell you that the action nearly bankrupted me, I was discovered (although successful in the attempt) which made me a parriah in the Christian world and unlikely to be able to arrange any future diplomatic liaisons with anyone other than a human player (since a human can over-ride the AI's diplomatic decision-making process). Further, the likelihood of me succeeding was mediocre, and would never have succeeded if Havard had been intenet on preventing it rather than facilitating it.

Was it an exploit? Altruisticly...guilty as charged. Yep. You'd better lock Havard and I up for having engaged in a rather entertaining diversion during a game where I assassinated an aging wife (who would not produce an heir that he so desperately needed and would thus result in the game ending prematurely for him) in exchange for Havard dispatching my uncle (the King of Leon who also happened to be childless and for who's lands I happened to be the heir). This was also in a desperate attempt to expand our territories in order to put together the necessary forces to have even half a chance against the vast Almohad forces (who outnumbered us about 4:1 and had superior arms and armour). So it seemed like both a necessary and entertaining idea at the time...and we did it.

Abusing the game in such a dastardly fashion will undoubtedly result in my never being asked to join in one of your MP games, and will probably ensure that I will become an MP outcast altogether and will be forced to live out the rest of my days in morose emotional destitution. I guess I will just have to book a couple extra sessions with my shrink to have him help me get over this devastating blow, and to assist me in dealing with my latent leanings towards murder and God knows what. Hmmm...maybe I can get a better deal if Havard signs up with the same psychiastrist?

Note to self: I guess Havard and I shouldn't bother writing that AAR after all, and we should definitely do our very best not to enjoy playing MP (or SP) games any longer. After all, this is very serious stuff that could result in our becoming emotional cripples for the rest of our lives!
Click to expand...

MrT,

Generally, I appreciate your post.

Though, I must vehemently disagree that this thread was any sort of half-cocked attempt to attack Crusader Kings about how pathetic it is. My opinion is quite the contrary. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be concerned about a possible MP abuse.

So I think you're rather out of line assuming that kind of motive with what was a valid concern, hoping for just this kind of reassuring response. Instead, I was flamed to high hell, so things got a bit out of hand. But I'm still glad I voiced it, rather then mulled on it without seeking for facts.

Furthermore, I don't think I assumed anything that your quote wouldn't lead the average person to suspect. The line "Of course I obliged" suggested that there wasn't much of a consequence.
 
MrT said:
Geez Damoclese. If I'd known anyone was going to go off half-cocked I would have subjected you to a suitably verbose "traditional MrT post" - but then that would rather have defeated the purpose, wouldn't it?

That you've based your assumptions on an off-hand remark meant to enterrain and drawn this elaborate conclusion about how pathetic the game is makes me wonder if you're any relation to Vizzini (The Princess Bride) for "truly, you have a dizzying intellect". ;)

Now where did I say that the act was without consequences?

*checks*

Hmm...it would appear, in fact, that I said nothing of the sort. How odd! :wacko:

At the risk of violating NDA, I can tell you that the action nearly bankrupted me, I was discovered (although successful in the attempt) which made me a parriah in the Christian world and unlikely to be able to arrange any future diplomatic liaisons with anyone other than a human player (since a human can over-ride the AI's diplomatic decision-making process). Further, the likelihood of me succeeding was mediocre, and would never have succeeded if Havard had been intent on preventing it rather than facilitating it.

Was it an exploit? Altruisticly...guilty as charged. Yep. You'd better lock Havard and I up for having engaged in a rather entertaining diversion during a game where I assassinated an aging wife (who would not produce an heir that he so desperately needed and would thus result in the game ending prematurely for him) in exchange for Havard dispatching my uncle (the King of Leon who also happened to be childless and for who's lands I happened to be the heir). This was also in a desperate attempt to expand our territories in order to put together the necessary forces to have even half a chance against the vast Almohad forces (who outnumbered us about 4:1 and had superior arms and armour). So it seemed like both a necessary and entertaining idea at the time...and we did it.

Abusing the game in such a dastardly fashion will undoubtedly result in my never being asked to join in one of your MP games, and will probably ensure that I will become an MP outcast altogether and will be forced to live out the rest of my days in morose emotional destitution. I guess I will just have to book a couple extra sessions with my shrink to have him help me get over this devastating blow, and to assist me in dealing with my latent leanings towards murder and God knows what. Hmmm...maybe I can get a better deal if Havard signs up with the same psychiastrist?

Note to self: I guess Havard and I shouldn't bother writing that AAR after all, and we should definitely do our very best not to enjoy playing MP (or SP) games any longer. After all, this is very serious stuff that could result in our becoming emotional cripples for the rest of our lives!
Click to expand...


Hence why I said it had nasty consequences and IMHO was not worth doing 99.9% of the time. :)
-SS
 
Snall said:
Someone lock this...im gonna go get a drink.
Click to expand...

Why should this be locked?

There are a couple sour apples like yourself who have nothing to contribute beyond attacking me, yet I am quite glad that I voiced my concerns. They were alleviated. I'm quite happy that I got the full story.

Though, I still think they were perfectly valid, considering the quote, if you were a non-beta desperately interested in the multiplayer aspect.
 
Damocles said:
Well, that muslim Assassin sect tried several times to take out Saladin, yet he eluded them every time.
Click to expand...

like I said, not many candidates, only the hashassins - but on who's pay role are they anyway ;)
 
Damocles said:
Why should this be locked?

There are a couple sour apples like yourself who have nothing to contribute beyond attacking me, yet I am quite glad that I voiced my concerns. They were alleviated. I'm quite happy that I got the full story.

Though, I still think they were perfectly valid, considering the quote, if you were a non-beta desperately interested in the multiplayer aspect.
Click to expand...

The comments made against Damocles are the concern for the mods to worry about, so Snall, its not your call. Thank you.
-SS
 
Damocles said:
Well, that muslim Assassin sect tried several times to take out Saladin, yet he eluded them every time.
Click to expand...
He probably had a very good spymaster. ;)

As for a barren wife...It is my understanding that this was mostly taken care of by trying to divorce the woman and get her to voluntarily retire into a nunnery. There might be less of a consequence for assassinating someone, then forcing your wife to retire to a nunnery, thus making such OOC cooperation very possible, even likely.
Click to expand...
Due to the risk of NDA violation I cannot respond to this appropriately. But...

Historically, even that would not really suffice as you could not re-wed. A marriage would have to be annulled (as many marriages that failed to produce offspring were, the proof being the lack of issue) or the life of the unfortunate woman would have to be brought to an end. Though not of this period, one has only to look at England's Henry VIII to get an appreciation of this. Also, I seem to recall more than one case of regicide (and/or equivalent) inthe course of history. A lot of very promenet people ended up dying prematurely thorugh causes that would raise the eyebrows of many a modern day detective.

That in this particular instance the risk was undertaken by forces outside the immediate court was a matter of convenience - one does not want to gain the kinslayer trait if one can help it - and so in that respect both Havard and I reduced our risks by virtue of our actions. But who's to say that such things weren't considered (or even acted upon) in the past and simly managed to remain undiscovered.

As to MP play, I would definitely consider the court appointment of a competent spymaster as being absolutely critical if one hopes to survive a highly adversarial no-holds-barred game. I would also, from a general game perspective, strongly advise against using assassination as a frequent tool of succession or war. You are likely to bring all of Christendom down on your head, so you should limit it's application to those one or two make-or-break opportunities that might present themselves during the game.

As to your assertions...well I will simply go back and re-read your various posts over the past few days and see if perhaps I had misunderstood your general leanings.

There. I hope that suffices to reward you for your fishing expedition and that you won't be upset that this thread is now closed for business.
 
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