Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Attero Dominatus

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Well, its not like he seems to get out much (I mean, all the posts in this thread after all), so I guess it might be a good thing for him. Anyways, enough with the semi flaming, I made a post in Interregnum back when I first started working with it which you could use for your mod if you haven't already decided what to do with the Reformed faith. Call it Catharism and have it big in Occitan areas; I'll go hunt the post now and you figure out what to do with it.

Here it is.

I have an Occitanian history-related question. How did the crusade against the Cathars turn out in Interregnated history? This post will be a little messy.

From Wikipedia, this was the cause of the Albigensian Crusade:
Quote:
The Papal legate Pierre de Castelnau, known for excommunicating the noblemen who protected the Cathars, excommunicated Raymond VI, count of Toulouse as an abettor of heresy in 1207. Pierre was then murdered near Saint Gilles Abbey in 1208 on his way back to Rome, probably at the connivance of Raymond. As soon as he heard of the murder, the Pope ordered his legates to preach a Crusade against the Cathars.

This war threw the whole of the nobility of the north of France against that of the south, possibly instigated by a papal decree stating that all land owned by Cathars could be confiscated at will. As the area was full of Cathar sympathisers, this made the entire area a target for northern nobles looking to gain new lands. It is thus hardly surprising that the barons of the north flocked south to do battle for the Church.


I don't know what kind of authority the book Holy Blood Holy Grail had on how it described the cause of the Albigensian Crusade, but its version was a little different--that it was called by the king of France (the one who would have died at about the same time in the Holy Land), probably as a power grab. I'll reread that chapter in a few minutes after I finish this post, which might turn out to have too ambitious an idea for this late in the mod.

If the Holy Blood Holy Grail version is correct, the Albigensian Crusade would not have happened--at least, not as it does in our world (while the eventually stated premise of the book could be BS, I trust their historical research, though it was written 25 years ago). If the Wikipedia version is correct. what if de Castelnau had not been murdered? The Crusade would most definitely have been called eventually, of course (same no matter which history is true). However, also from HBHG, it was stated that the Cathar heresy was starting to gain ground in Germany just before the crusade against it(the Languedoc region was rather prosperous at the time due to the innovative qualities of the heresy common to the region, and it was much more populous at the time than it was in 1419--the crusaders tore the region up and massacred a rather large percentage of the inhabitants). The Byzantine armies, as written in the grand history thread, slaughter the armies from the 4th crusade and leave France kingless; this could have weakened the kindgom enough that it could not do the crusade.

If the Cathar heresy somehow survives to the beginning of the Interregnum game, the protestant reformation would have to be changed--I've seen the date for the protestant reformation changed in other mods, and it can be disabled with the scenario editor, IIRC. The beginning of the major religious turmoil would have most likely taken place 300 years before its starting time in our world (ie, the 1250s), and interregnum could either begin just at the end of the wars of religion or have them flare up at the start (alternatively, it could be split in two, the second half having been delayed to starting around 1419 because of the aftermath of the Black Death in the 1300s, with at most only local religious violence as kings shut themselves in their castles to avoid catching the plague).

Could this somehow be connected with the Hussites in Bohemia? With the addition in this game of the states allied with Bohemia in place of Poland (Greater Silesia and Volhynia-Dysifyniwhatever) being added to the game...imagine the possibilities. If half of Bavaria is Cathar and the other half is Catholic, they would certainly have a tougher time fighting a war against the Hussites, thus possibly making it a surviving faith taking the place of reform? IIRC, John Wyclife comes after Jan Hus, and he could have some influence in the British isles with the Hussite version of Christianity.

I hope this helps
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Hussites. The Cathars barely recognized the divinity of Jesus, and even that was slipping away fast. BTW, if you are going to use my suggestion, what is your policy on naming things like this? Albigensian comes from a town which the religion wasn't even centered in, and Cathar has something to do with having sex with cats (its a derogatory term). They called each other Good men or good women.

Also, due to the increased occitan population, and due to the nature of the religion, I would encourage you to put a CoT in Languedoc. It was a major intellectual center, and as I said earlier traders to and from the german states were possibly helping the religion spread.
 
The Cathars... were these the heretical chaps represented in the Mongol Empire Scenario? They went reformed and the French tried to annihilate them.

Oh, and SunZyl, I've emailed you that culture stuff ;)
 
orimazd said:
Hussites. The Cathars barely recognized the divinity of Jesus, and even that was slipping away fast. BTW, if you are going to use my suggestion, what is your policy on naming things like this? Albigensian comes from a town which the religion wasn't even centered in, and Cathar has something to do with having sex with cats (its a derogatory term). They called each other Good men or good women.

Also, due to the increased occitan population, and due to the nature of the religion, I would encourage you to put a CoT in Languedoc. It was a major intellectual center, and as I said earlier traders to and from the german states were possibly helping the religion spread.
Click to expand...

Seems fair in that case. ;) However I wonder how having Barcelona own both the CoT in Barcelona and Languedoc, what do you think about that? Okay or not? :D
 
mandead said:
The Cathars... were these the heretical chaps represented in the Mongol Empire Scenario? They went reformed and the French tried to annihilate them.

Oh, and SunZyl, I've emailed you that culture stuff ;)
Click to expand...

Great, thanks. :)

EDIT: Just a minor notement... both patagonian and mayan has become occitan. ;)
 
SunZyl said:
Seems fair in that case. ;) However I wonder how having Barcelona own both the CoT in Barcelona and Languedoc, what do you think about that? Okay or not? :D
Click to expand...
Bad idea; I would create an Occitan state like Languedoc in Abberation in the area, though have it encompass most of the occitan provinces rather than the bottom three.
 
How's everything going, SunZyl?

Thought I'd pop in and see what was going on, 'cus I wondered how near you were to a working beta :rolleyes:

I'm still waiting for a good Old World map for our real mod :D
 
mandead said:
How's everything going, SunZyl?

Thought I'd pop in and see what was going on, 'cus I wondered how near you were to a working beta :rolleyes:

I'm still waiting for a good Old World map for our real mod :D
Click to expand...

Usch. There's just so much modding work before EUIII to do... :(

I haven't really worked for a few days, hope to be able to work quite a bit tonight though. :)
 
I don't know how is your (Central) American Setup (if exits any, or there are plans for one), but I fund a curiosity about the Aztecs.

Scholars have suggested that the myth of Quetzalcoatl the priest is based on pre-Columbian contact between the Old World and the new. The early western explorers of Mexico tended to see parallels between the pious nature of the High priest Topiltzin and early Christianity. Many early chroniclers in Mexico, among these; Garcia, Becerra Tanco, and Siguenza y Gongora, believed that the Apostle St. Thomas was the original Topiltzin. These authors base their assumptions that the cross was in Mexico at the coming of the first Christian explorers (Braden 37). Also the very religion of the Aztecs had elements that were very Christian like. For example, a common memory of the flood, the creation of male and then female in the creation story and most significantly, the Aztecs said Quetzalcoatl was white, light hared and bearded. The legends also state that he wore a robe with red and black crosses, and he is always pictured wearing a kind of miter and carrying a staff in his hand (Braden 37). The third reason that Quetzalcoatl may have been inspired by a Christian missionary is that he promised to return one day from the east with other bearded white men (Braden 38). This in itself is a tantalizing aspect to the story.
Click to expand...

Source

If the Aztecs survived to the Spanish, they could may turn in to a Christian country, if this happens in the game, why not script events related to this?
 
Also the very religion of the Aztecs had elements that were very Christian like. For example, a common memory of the flood, the creation of male and then female in the creation story
Click to expand...

While I can't comment on the later part of your quotation I'd like to say something about this bit. It is inaccurate to call a common memory of the flood and the creation of men before women "Christian like". Most near Eastern religions, including those that predated Judaism (of which Christianity was originally but one sect), have a myth regarding male-first creation and a flood. The Enuma Elish and Epic of Gilgamesh dating to c. 3rd Millenium BCE have these components. The similarities may have either been coincidental, earlier transmitted, or the result of Christian missions to the new world. However IIRC there is evidence that St. Thomas went to India, something which the first explorers of Mexico may not have been aware of.

If this path is followed I suggest reading a bit of Orson Scott Card's "Folk of the Fringe." It's a Sci-Fi collection of his short stories. Basically a post-apocalyptic Mormon church comes into contact with Indigenious North Americans (the only two societies that survive in this story) who are strangely Christian like due to the influence of Catholicism on the Quetzalcoatl stories. I suggest this merely for flavour in scripting events that make a Pagan Aztec Empire Christian. The mix presented by Card is believable, preserving the core of the indigenous elements while carrying heavy overtones of Catholicism...

Also, again IIRC, the Aztecs were in decline when the Spanish conquered them, perhaps a successor state could take their place?
 
Dairpo said:
Also, again IIRC, the Aztecs were in decline when the Spanish conquered them, perhaps a successor state could take their place?
Click to expand...

DECLINE? The Mayans were, not the Aztecs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back